Turkish Military Stance in Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean

[KhanOfEurasia]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1925970500884332600

The greek Newspaper Pentapostagma want India to built Bases in Greece.

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Tayfun and CENK. Two hypersonic missiles that are amongst the most potent weapons of Turkish attack missile armoury.

To hope for anti ship capability seems to be wishful thinking at this stage. I was also hopeful that these missiles would at least have anti ship capable versions. That would make them real game changers. May be there is work being carried out that we are not aware of. There has been a lot of unofficial news about anti ship version of Bora and Tayfun. But nothing concrete has emerged so far.

However at least for Tayfun, Roketsan has shared the guidance system as GOLIS. That is Go Onto Location In Space, shortened.
It is a guidance system that specifically targets stationary positions and platforms. So moving ships in the sea will not be Tayfun’s target unless a new version is also being developed.
Cenk being the big brother of Tayfun and being developed as a follow on missile, it having anti ship capability will be too optimistic.

Kara Atmaca with its “guestimated” 450 to 500 km range is the current anti ship missile that will keep enemy ships away from our coasts. That is until a Ramjet version of Atmaca becomes a reality. Since ramjet engined Gökhan a2a missile’s natural and logical successor is bound to be an anti ship ramjet powered missile.

@Yasar_TR

Before we speak about ASBM it is first important to detect an enemy CSG, we have E-7T, MPA, several Drones, Göktürk I & II EO Satelittes and IMECE and will launch Göktürk III SAR Satelitte in the Space arround 2028 - 30. Space based SAR would help our armed Forces to detect and classifie an enemy CSG Day and Night and under all weather Conditions.

We have Drones that can be equipped with SAR Pods or Radars, but I doubt that the Range of current Systems like MILSAR will be sufficient to spot an enemy CSG from a safe Distance of several hundret Kilometers. We lack on high Altitude ISR UAV's like the Triton or the chinese CH-7 Drone.

OTH Radar can play also an important Role by detect and track an enemy CSG, I don't if turkish Navy have an land based OTH Radar ?

From my Point of View it will be only realistic in an forseeable Timeframe that Turkey could only employ ASBM with a Range up 600 km ! This is in the reach of current AEW&C and other ISR Capabillities.

 

[Yasar_TR]

@Yasar_TR

Before we speak about ASBM it is first important to detect an enemy CSG, we have E-7T, MPA, several Drones, Göktürk I & II EO Satelittes and IMECE and will launch Göktürk III SAR Satelitte in the Space arround 2028 - 30. Space based SAR would help our armed Forces to detect and classifie an enemy CSG Day and Night and under all weather Conditions.

We have Drones that can be equipped with SAR Pods or Radars, but I doubt that the Range of current Systems like MILSAR will be sufficient to spot an enemy CSG from a safe Distance of several hundret Kilometers. We lack on high Altitude ISR UAV's like the Triton or the chinese CH-7 Drone.

OTH Radar can play also an important Role by detect and track an enemy CSG, I don't if turkish Navy have an land based OTH Radar ?

From my Point of View it will be only realistic in an forseeable Timeframe that Turkey could only employ ASBM with a Range up 600 km ! This is in the reach of current AEW&C and other ISR Capabillities.

@BaburKhan ,
Whose carrier strike group you are planning to locate to attack?
Around the world below countries possess these strike groups:
USA,
UK,
France,
Italy,
China,
India.
(Russia only has one carrier that has been out of commission for years)

All of these countries apart from Italy are nuclear powers. First four are in NATO. That leaves China and India. If China or India were to send carrier groups to waters close to us then there is seriously something wrong that affects not just us, but all the other countries listed above.

Countries like USA, China, India, UK, France and Russia, have the tech to destroy and defend satellites in space. South Korea and japan should have this capability too. This is prelude to space wars. One way or another we will have to be prepared to develop this technology too.

Getting back to locating enemy ships, Almost all ships that are deemed as enemy are always tracked. That includes submarines too. Your long range aerial assets that possess radars like Aesa radars can track targets 6-700km away.
Our Gokturk satellites can give you high resolution images of ground and surface of 800km wide at a time. It may take 25 seconds to scan that wide an area. But these satellites can cover 1/3rd area of the earth surface, albeit in slices. To overcome cloud cover and dark areas problem, Synthetic Aperture Radars are the natural solution. But you need to be close to earth and have gigantic dishes in space.

As we are the leading country in drone warfare, extensively using drones for ISR missions should be the way forward to resolve this problem. Our Meltem3 system has a range of 350km. Aksungur too can be used for ISR duties. Meltem3 FLIR can detect surface ships from in excess of 65km. The Ocean Master 400 radar on Meltem3 can detect a submarine periscope from 30 nm and a patrol boat from 90 nm. Add that to the range of Meltem3 aircraft’s operational radius; you have a lot of range to work with.

Unless it is being developed under wraps, AShBM availability is not applicable at the moment. But hypersonic AShBM capability is important and can be a game changer advantage.

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

@BaburKhan ,
Whose carrier strike group you are planning to locate to attack?
Around the world below countries possess these strike groups:
USA,
UK,
France,
Italy,
China,
India.
(Russia only has one carrier that has been out of commission for years)

All of these countries apart from Italy are nuclear powers. First four are in NATO. That leaves China and India. If China or India were to send carrier groups to waters close to us then there is seriously something wrong that affects not just us, but all the other countries listed above.

Countries like USA, China, India, UK, France and Russia, have the tech to destroy and defend satellites in space. South Korea and japan should have this capability too. This is prelude to space wars. One way or another we will have to be prepared to develop this technology too.

Getting back to locating enemy ships, Almost all ships that are deemed as enemy are always tracked. That includes submarines too. Your long range aerial assets that possess radars like Aesa radars can track targets 6-700km away.
Our Gokturk satellites can give you high resolution images of ground and surface of 800km wide at a time. It may take 25 seconds to scan that wide an area. But these satellites can cover 1/3rd area of the earth surface, albeit in slices. To overcome cloud cover and dark areas problem, Synthetic Aperture Radars are the natural solution. But you need to be close to earth and have gigantic dishes in space.

As we are the leading country in drone warfare, extensively using drones for ISR missions should be the way forward to resolve this problem. Our Meltem3 system has a range of 350km. Aksungur too can be used for ISR duties. Meltem3 FLIR can detect surface ships from in excess of 65km. The Ocean Master 400 radar on Meltem3 can detect a submarine periscope from 30 nm and a patrol boat from 90 nm. Add that to the range of Meltem3 aircraft’s operational radius; you have a lot of range to work with.

Unless it is being developed under wraps, AShBM availability is not applicable at the moment. But hypersonic AShBM capability is important and can be a game changer advantage.

I would plan to locate and attack that CSG which want to intervene in turkish sphere of Influence, this include Cyprus, the Aegean and Libya. When I look bach at the Events of the recent Years and France consider Turkey as a Challenge in the easterm Mediterranean. The most likely Confrontation with an Power that operates Aircraft Carrier could occur with France. Italy is also located in the eastern Mediterranean, before some Years they snt an Warship in drilling Zones arround Cyprus. Now the Relations with them are good, but we don't know what the Future bring.

For example Italy have their Interests in Libya, these Interests are Migration and Energy ! We should not underestimate the regional Dynamics, Turkey and Haftar were getting closer and the long term Target will be a united Libya as Partner of Turkey. If this Libya is not in Line with Italys Interests, likely Italy will oppose it and we have to Protect it ! Italy can join Forces with the greek - french Axis and could join their Defence Agreement in Such Case !

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1942691362815488153

As long an enemy CSG will Threaten Turkey and Interevene in our Areas of Interests, it will be neccesary to attack it ! In other Way they will deny the Air Superiority to us !

France Sends Forces to Mediterranean as Greece, Turkey Dispute Territory

Greek, Turkish forces on full alert over oil drilling rights

www.voanews.com

France to boost military presence in eastern Mediterranean

Move comes as Greece-Turkey tensions rise after Ankara sends ship to prospect for oil and gas in disputed waters.

www.aljazeera.com

https://dam.gcsp.ch/files/doc/escalation-france-turkey

Turkish ambitions in the Mediterranean: towards an acceleration of naval frictions with Europe? - Fondation Méditerranéenne d'Études Stratégiques

Click here to read the original (French) version of this article The Turkish merchant ship Cirkin, which is used to transit between Turkey and Libya for deliveries of military equipment under the guise of "humanitarian deliveries", has been escorted by Turkish warships since May in order to...

fmes-france.org

Turkey blasts France over support for Syrian Kurdish-led forces

"If France had anything to do [in Syria], it should take its own citizens, bring them to its own prisons, and judge them,” Fidan said, accusing the French government of ignoring Ankara's security concerns in Syria.

thenewregion.com

The French Military's Perception of the Turkish Military and Turkey's Expansion in the EastMed. | Ifri

This week, Ifri, in partnership with CATS Network, is launching a series of five videos on the tensions in the Eastern Mediterranean, seen through the prism of the geopolitical rivalry between France and Turkey.

www.ifri.org

 

[nick.f76]

Chevron rejects Turkey-Libyan deal and eyes Crete’s oil fields - TA NEA Chevron rejects Turkey-Libyan deal and eyes Crete’s oil fields

Chevron, whose contracts with Venezuela were terminated by former U.S. President Donald Trump, is now set to explore the oil deposits south of Crete—an unexpected development for Greece. Chevron rejects Turkey-Libyan deal and eyes Crete’s oil fields. The plots up for tender are the same as those...

tanea.com.au

Ultimately Big Oil will decide the fate of Greek hydrocarbon deposits

As U.S. companies, Chevron and ExxonMobil benefit from American diplomatic and military support, especially when US interests intersect with strategic allies like Greece, particularly in regions like the Eastern Mediterranean. This is evident by the recent statements of Kimberly Guilfoyle, US...

www.newgreektv.com

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Translatet with Google Translator from german Language.

The YouTube channel "The Italian Reach" analyzes the equipment and doctrine of the Italian and Turkish navies in the linked video. The creator points out that the Turkish navy consists largely of surface combatants and submarines of German and US origin, but these are models that are 30 years old or more.

Due to the large production capacity of Turkish shipyards, where approximately 30 warships are currently under construction, this ratio could change significantly in the next 10 years. The creator believes that Turkey should not be underestimated and is not a developing country dependent on tourism, as many believe.

The creator sees Turkey more as a geostrategic competitor for Italy, particularly with regard to the central and eastern Mediterranean, North Africa, and the Balkans.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1985024515085107508

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Greek Cyprus, France sign strategic partnership deal - World News

French President Emmanuel Macron and Greek Cypriot leader Nikos Christodoulides on Dec. 15 signed a “strategic partnership agreement” after their meeting at the Elysee Palace in Paris.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com

France and south Cyprus signed a strategic Pertnership Agreement, which cover Cooperation in Defence, Economy and Culture. The Agreement foresee the Modernisation of Mari naval Base for the use of french armed Forces and the allocation of Airports and ports to french military Units.

 

[Huelague]

We all know that a military confrontation is inevitable . More important is to do the job right and not stopp in the middle. Means, the winner takes it all.

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

We all know that a military confrontation is inevitable . More important is to do the job right and not stopp in the middle. Means, the winner takes it all.

Important is how to be prepared. France have a Navy which consist of modern Submarines, ASW Frigates and AAW Destroyer, with MDCN Cruise Missiles they can Target important military Infrastructure in Turkey from the eastern Mediteranean which Greece is not Capable ! They have the Aircraft Carrier Charles De Gaulle which have an Air Wing of arround 40 Aircraft. Turkey is on a good Way, for example we have now two of six Reis Submarines with AIP Propulsion in Service by TNC. Soon IHA-300 ER will also join the Invertory and the ALBM is capable of reaching Targets more than 500 km away and it will get an TV Seeker for terminal guidance. Tubitak/SAGE is developing a Ramjet powered Anti - Ship Missile and there are also Speculations about ASBM Variants of Tayfun and Cenk ballistic Missiles.

All these Projects need their Time to mature, if we have that Time it's a another Question !

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Following the Incident of Kamikaze UAV which were launched from iranian Proxy Group towards RAF Airbase Akrotiri in south Cyprus. Non Guarantee Members sent their Warships towards the Waters of Cyprus. The Analyst Kory Kamici claim that EU will establish a permanent EU Airbase in south Cyprus.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2031470217801457672

The claim that Southern Cyprus, Greece, and France will soon bring the establishment of a permanent EU air base on the island to the table for discussions in Brussels is becoming increasingly likely. Beware!

The planned EU military base in Cyprus could also bring about new debates regarding Cyprus's status. This base would also include a command and headquarters, air force, and special forces capable of intervening in potential energy-related military conflicts in the Eastern Mediterranean in the future.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2031154763178320095

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2031036082968572219

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2029938001955147899

 

[bisbis]

Why do you think we have been building missiles like Tayfun and CENK?
With our current technical expertise to fit two way data link and/or a capable seeker head on these missiles to render them usable as precision guided against moving sea targets should be well within our grasp.
A missile with a 600km range will give you coverage of:

View attachment 62607

That physically makes Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean our lake. That is without the Reis Class and our Corvettes and OPVs.
With saturation attack of a dozen or so of these missiles that travel at hypersonic speeds, it would be difficult to navigate in these waters.
There are Land based Atmaca missiles that will cover our coast with a depth of 250km as well.

View attachment 62608

We don’t know what CENK missile is yet. So no comment on that.
Also we only know that Tayfun traveled 591km at a disclosed test. We don’t know it’s true Range.

We have not taken in to account of the firepower and electronic Warfare capabilities of Turkish UAV forces.

We will only open all our cards when the S..t hits the fan. So we can speculate as much as we want at the moment. And with the current information in hand, what we speculate gives us enough to feel comfortable about.

Attaching a seeker sensor to a ballistic missile is not very effective with current technology. Compared to air-to-air missiles, the excessive heating of the front section due to friction during long flight times would blind an IIR sensor attached to this area. Cooling a radar in this region is virtually impossible. Therefore, manufacturers, including Roketsan, strive to ensure the missile reaches the target's designated coordinates with the utmost precision.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Attaching a seeker sensor to a ballistic missile is not very effective with current technology. Compared to air-to-air missiles, the excessive heating of the front section due to friction during long flight times would blind an IIR sensor attached to this area. Cooling a radar in this region is virtually impossible. Therefore, manufacturers, including Roketsan, strive to ensure the missile reaches the target's designated coordinates with the utmost precision.

THAAD uses a BAE Systems built IIR seeker.
These seekers are used at the final terminal stage to pinpoint a target’s position. They are covered with heat absorbing materials and are made available at the last stage of a missile’s flight where the cover (the shroud) is discarded.

BAE Systems Continues IIR Seeker Deliveries for THAAD | TURDEF

BAE Systems announced the delivery of the 1000th imaging infrared (IIR) seeker for THAAD’s anti-ballistic missiles to the manufacturer Lockheed Martin.

turdef.com

Take ASRAAM; it has an IIR seeker. It reaches speeds of 3 to 3.5 Mach in fairly dense layers of atmosphere. At that speed it can cover over 30km. That is over 30 seconds of sustained high speed flight in dense air generating extreme heat at the seeker head. It uses cryogenic cooling and having a sapphire dome also gives extra heat protection.

Then there is PrSM, US’s 500km + ballistic missile. Increment 2 version uses an IIR seeker to hit moving sea targets. (Already successfully tested)
For future variants like Increment 4, to reach ranges up to 1,000 km, the seeker again must be protected against extreme aero-thermal heating.
This is typically managed via specialized window materials and cooling systems, though specific PrSM cooling methods (like cryogenic or Peltier thermoelectric cooling similar to heat pump method). And they both remain classified.

Even though their precision is suspect, Iran’s latest Fateh Mobin class SRBMs use IIR seekers to hit sea targets. Again they are well protected with cooling systems and special covers that open and reveal the IIR seeker at terminal stage.

So don’t be surprised if soon a Tayfun is used to hit a moving sea target with a Turkish built IIR seeker.

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543277203756023808

In 2022 Barbaros Coastal Defence System were succesfully tested, until now it is still a Prototyp which not entered serial Production and not entered TAF Service. In the current Situation with european Deployment arround Cyprus we could need Barbaros which can fire 250 km + ranged Atmaca AShM urgently !

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2034725390162264343

According to OSINT Data the french Carrier Charles De Gaulle is patrolling bot far awawy from the turkish Coast. If we had Barbaros coastal Defence Batteries in full Operation readyness, this woul detter the french to patroll so close to our Coast.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2034427082139168882

The likely Range of Atmaca is shown in the Picture of the Tweet.

 

[GoatsMilk]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1543277203756023808

In 2022 Barbaros Coastal Defence System were succesfully tested, until now it is still a Prototyp which not entered serial Production and not entered TAF Service. In the current Situation with european Deployment arround Cyprus we could need Barbaros which can fire 250 km + ranged Atmaca AShM urgently !

Probably considered a critical system and hence all information on it became secret.

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Probably considered a critical system and hence all information on it became secret.

In 2024 Cakir Missile Integration Works were completet. Barbaros is ready for serial Production, but still in Prototype Status ! Likely Roketsan is busy to built Atmaca Missiles for the Navy, this can be also a Reason. BTW it's a dangerous Gap in turkish A2/AD Capabillities. With the Strikes on Iran a regional Crisis evolve, in this Situation not only France deploeyed Warships in the Waters arround Cyprus, also Spain, Italy, The Netherland, Great Britain and Germany.

We can only fight Wars with Weapons we have !

 

[Dom Sebastião]

A single routine missile test or a disguised trade ship based EMP weapon could temporarily blind all radars, unprotected electronics to make way and improve the chances of our surprise attack. The fastest ballistic missiles we have will go first. A massive barrage will take out most critical targets like air defenses, F-35s, ships etc. Only then our subsonic assets will have some chance. Also, since they will have F-35s, we will not have air superiority to do what America does in these situations; DEAD. So trying to use anti radiation missiles, Kizilelma, TB2, KAAN etc. wouldn't work against F-35s and Patriots. This best case scenario of course still wouldn't stop, the rest of the world attacking us.

Without openly testing our hydrogen bomb beforehand, we will not be able to deter a devastating direct western reprisal. If we prove we have enough hydrogen bombs and a true nuclear triad, then we will be as safe against the west as the Russians are. Meaning crushing embargoes and a long war of attrition, with Greece getting unlimited conventional support without the west directly attacking us. But since we lack allies and oil resources or trillions unlike Russians, we will eventually lose despite doing everything else right militarily.

So it is best to stay friends with Greece if they allow us, by not being confrontational against us.

I have great respect for Turkey, and I really like this forum, but sometimes I think many people here overestimate Turkish capabilities. Turkey would undoubtedly beat Greece in a conventional duel, but Greece, like Ukraine, wouldn't be alone, and Turkey would never win a war against the European Union. Even in a scenario where you have a nuclear triad, Turkey would lose much of its economic relevance, become isolated, and turn into a larger version of North Korea, or something similar to Iran, with the difference that North Korea is under the economic umbrella of China. I also think many Turks overestimate Greek capabilities and Greek imperialism. Greece is a failed country; they won't attack Turkey, they don't have the capacity for that. What you should focus on is supremacy in the Middle East and developing a doctrine capable of defeating Israel. In my view, Turkey should do this:

Get closer and closer to the European Union, to the point where Turkey becomes indispensable to Europe, something that the war in Ukraine helps; take advantage of Israel's distraction with Iran, and Russia's with Ukraine, and firmly establish itself in Syria and the Caucasus; forge alliances with Egypt, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, and even Iran itself (to confront the supremacy of Israel and the US in the region), establishing Turkey as the undisputed leader of the Sunni world.

Just like in Frank Herbert's Dune, the Middle East is like Arrakis, vital to global trade, and Turkey holds the keys to dominate it. It just needs to remove Israel and the US from the equation. For that, Iran can be instrumentalized, and keep Iran isolated as it already is. You shouldn't worry so much about Greece. I know it's hard to forget centuries-old rivalries, and that Greece breaks agreements, but be friends with them at least for the next few decades.

I may be wrong, but this is the unbiased opinion of a Portuguese-Brazilian living on the other side of the world.

 

[Ripley]

I have great respect for Turkey, and I really like this forum, but sometimes I think many people here overestimate Turkish capabilities. Turkey would undoubtedly beat Greece in a conventional duel, but Greece, like Ukraine, wouldn't be alone, and Turkey would never win a war against the European Union. Even in a scenario where you have a nuclear triad, Turkey would lose much of its economic relevance, become isolated, and turn into a larger version of North Korea, or something similar to Iran, with the difference that North Korea is under the economic umbrella of China. I also think many Turks overestimate Greek capabilities and Greek imperialism. Greece is a failed country; they won't attack Turkey, they don't have the capacity for that. What you should focus on is supremacy in the Middle East and developing a doctrine capable of defeating Israel. In my view, Turkey should do this:

Get closer and closer to the European Union, to the point where Turkey becomes indispensable to Europe, something that the war in Ukraine helps; take advantage of Israel's distraction with Iran, and Russia's with Ukraine, and firmly establish itself in Syria and the Caucasus; forge alliances with Egypt, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, and even Iran itself (to confront the supremacy of Israel and the US in the region), establishing Turkey as the undisputed leader of the Sunni world.

Just like in Frank Herbert's Dune, the Middle East is like Arrakis, vital to global trade, and Turkey holds the keys to dominate it. It just needs to remove Israel and the US from the equation. For that, Iran can be instrumentalized, and keep Iran isolated as it already is. You shouldn't worry so much about Greece. I know it's hard to forget centuries-old rivalries, and that Greece breaks agreements, but be friends with them at least for the next few decades.

I may be wrong, but this is the unbiased opinion of a Portuguese-Brazilian living on the other side of the world.

Welcome to the forum my friend

 

[Yasar_TR]

ATMACA UM Ground-Launched Cruise Missile Hits 400 km Away | TURDEF

Secretary of Turkish Defence Industries Haluk Görgün stated that ROKETSAN’s ATMACA UM ground-launched land attack cruise missile reached a range of 400 km.

turdef.com

SSB President has given the range of Kara Atmaca in the latest test to be in excess of 400km.

That gives a coastal coverage of:

So nothing much can be safe East of Crete.

 

[TR_123456]

I have great respect for Turkey, and I really like this forum, but sometimes I think many people here overestimate Turkish capabilities.

Which people,can you show some examples?

Turkey would undoubtedly beat Greece in a conventional duel

Nobody thinks of going to war against Greece,i think you have misread or misunderstood some of the posts on the forum regarding Greece.
So,a war against Greece is not an issue.

Get closer and closer to the European Union, to the point where Turkey becomes indispensable to Europe, something that the war in Ukraine helps; take advantage of Israel's distraction with Iran, and Russia's with Ukraine, and firmly establish itself in Syria and the Caucasus; forge alliances with Egypt, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, and even Iran itself (to confront the supremacy of Israel and the US in the region), establishing Turkey as the undisputed leader of the Sunni world.

What the hell is wrong with you,coming here and revealing our plans openly?

Just like in Frank Herbert's Dune, the Middle East is like Arrakis, vital to global trade, and Turkey holds the keys to dominate it. It just needs to remove Israel and the US from the equation. For that, Iran can be instrumentalized, and keep Iran isolated as it already is. You shouldn't worry so much about Greece. I know it's hard to forget centuries-old rivalries, and that Greece breaks agreements, but be friends with them at least for the next few decades.

Thanks for the ideas,we never thought of it this way.

I may be wrong, but this is the unbiased opinion of a Portuguese-Brazilian living on the other side of the world.

You are so wrong that a team is already underway to Brasil!!!