Turkish Military Stance in Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean

BaburKhan

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We discussed in another Thread about necessarity of having ASBM Capabillity for TAF in the Cyprus and Aegean Theater. The french want a Base in southern Cyprus and they also sent Warships when Tensions were High with Greece. From this point of View it's likely they will send a CSG in any Event of War.

In this Thread we should Discus Measures which should be Taken to counter any deployment of CSG by France or in other Nation.
 

TR_123456

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We discussed in another Thread about necessarity of having ASBM Capabillity for TAF in the Cyprus and Aegean Theater. The french want a Base in southern Cyprus and they also sent Warships when Tensions were High with Greece. From this point of View it's likely they will send a CSG in any Event of War.

In this Thread we should Discus Measures which should be Taken to counter any deployment of CSG by France or in other Nation.
There is no need for extra precautions,our missiles and subs are enough to cover the Mediterranean.
 

Yasar_TR

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Why do you think we have been building missiles like Tayfun and CENK?
With our current technical expertise to fit two way data link and/or a capable seeker head on these missiles to render them usable as precision guided against moving sea targets should be well within our grasp.
A missile with a 600km range will give you coverage of:

1699188973289.jpeg


That physically makes Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean our lake. That is without the Reis Class and our Corvettes and OPVs.
With saturation attack of a dozen or so of these missiles that travel at hypersonic speeds, it would be difficult to navigate in these waters.
There are Land based Atmaca missiles that will cover our coast with a depth of 250km as well.

1699189552529.jpeg


We don’t know what CENK missile is yet. So no comment on that.
Also we only know that Tayfun traveled 591km at a disclosed test. We don’t know it’s true Range.

We have not taken in to account of the firepower and electronic Warfare capabilities of Turkish UAV forces.

We will only open all our cards when the S..t hits the fan. So we can speculate as much as we want at the moment. And with the current information in hand, what we speculate gives us enough to feel comfortable about.
 

Ryder

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We discussed in another Thread about necessarity of having ASBM Capabillity for TAF in the Cyprus and Aegean Theater. The french want a Base in southern Cyprus and they also sent Warships when Tensions were High with Greece. From this point of View it's likely they will send a CSG in any Event of War.

In this Thread we should Discus Measures which should be Taken to counter any deployment of CSG by France or in other Nation.

Turkish military doctrine used to be just Russia only due to the Cold War.

But now the doctrine has changed not just confronting Russia but also the West when shit hits the fan.

Also new regional challenges like the Middle East and the Caucasus.

Turkiye and China may not be close to each other but will become competitors for Central Asia.

Turkiye is just getting ready for anything is no longer trying to be dependant on anybody or joining any camp despite being with Nato.
 

Maximilien Robespierre

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Why do you think we have been building missiles like Tayfun and CENK?
With our current technical expertise to fit two way data link and/or a capable seeker head on these missiles to render them usable as precision guided against moving sea targets should be well within our grasp.
A missile with a 600km range will give you coverage of:

View attachment 62607

That physically makes Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean our lake. That is without the Reis Class and our Corvettes and OPVs.
With saturation attack of a dozen or so of these missiles that travel at hypersonic speeds, it would be difficult to navigate in these waters.
There are Land based Atmaca missiles that will cover our coast with a depth of 250km as well.

View attachment 62608

We don’t know what CENK missile is yet. So no comment on that.
Also we only know that Tayfun traveled 591km at a disclosed test. We don’t know it’s true Range.

We have not taken in to account of the firepower and electronic Warfare capabilities of Turkish UAV forces.

We will only open all our cards when the S..t hits the fan. So we can speculate as much as we want at the moment. And with the current information in hand, what we speculate gives us enough to feel comfortable about.
Russians also had missiles but they weren't enough, Turkiye still doesn't mass produce most of its good missiles like som cruise missile.

We need ASBM capabilities that can do sea skimming.
 

BaburKhan

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Why do you think we have been building missiles like Tayfun and CENK?
With our current technical expertise to fit two way data link and/or a capable seeker head on these missiles to render them usable as precision guided against moving sea targets should be well within our grasp.
A missile with a 600km range will give you coverage of:


I Think Turkey is Building Tayfun and Cenk to ensure a Regional Strike Capabillity. It can be used against military Infrastructure, Ports and other Infrastructure which is important for Energy, Transport etc. It's also possible to use against large Ships like AC, LHD, LPD. with the right Seeker and Guidance System.

It gives no Guaranty that in Case of sn War it will be only between Greece and Turkey, maybe the french are also on Board like in the last Crisis. In much more worst Scenario, TAF need to Deal with EU Battlegroups, which is possible from the theoretic point of View.

In this Case I didn't expect a turkish Victory. TAF need also when possibility of such Scenario seems to be low, prepared for it.

This mean to be able to Strike all Assests before they can Pose a serious Threat in the Eastern Mediterran.

 

Yasar_TR

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Russians also had missiles but they weren't enough, Turkiye still doesn't mass produce most of its good missiles like som cruise missile.

We need ASBM capabilities that can do sea skimming.
How do you know how many tactical ballistic missiles we have? Yildirim were in stock in hundreds for many years before it came out that we had them. Bora missiles were purchased in fairly good quantities. In 2018 Roketsan received 415 units of SOM orders. Also in 2018 , Roketsan had already delivered 72 Bora missiles. They don’t advertise these orders. What we learn in the media is only the tip of the iceberg.
Russian tactical ballistic missile capabilities have been greatly exaggerated. Their precision guidance have not been anywhere as good as ours. If you watch our Bora hitting it’s targets in the last two tests, you will see that, although the CEP value given (Circular Error of Probability) is 50m for this missile, in both cases the target is hit with under 1m error. Same is the case for our Atmaca and SOM.

Also you have to remember that SOM and Bora are missiles with a million + dollar price tag on them. You manufacture a thousand units, then you have put in to shelves 1 billion dollar hard cash that you can spend on KAAN or it’s engine.

Do you know what a ballistic missile is?
It has to go up 40 to 100+ km in to sky (depending on it’s range) , then free fall on to earth under a ballistic trajectory. It can’t do sea skimming! It has no thrust , no power as it is coming down.
 

Maximilien Robespierre

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How do you know how many tactical ballistic missiles we have? Yildirim were in stock in hundreds for many years before it came out that we had them. Bora missiles were purchased in fairly good quantities. In 2018 Roketsan received 415 units of SOM orders. Also in 2018 , Roketsan had already delivered 72 Bora missiles. They don’t advertise these orders. What we learn in the media is only the tip of the iceberg.
Russian tactical ballistic missile capabilities have been greatly exaggerated. Their precision guidance have not been anywhere as good as ours. If you watch our Bora hitting it’s targets in the last two tests, you will see that, although the CEP value given (Circular Error of Probability) is 50m for this missile, in both cases the target is hit with under 1m error. Same is the case for our Atmaca and SOM.

Also you have to remember that SOM and Bora are missiles with a million + dollar price tag on them. You manufacture a thousand units, then you have put in to shelves 1 billion dollar hard cash that you can spend on KAAN or it’s engine.

Do you know what a ballistic missile is?
It has to go up 40 to 100+ km in to sky (depending on it’s range) , then free fall on to earth under a ballistic trajectory. It can’t do sea skimming! It has no thrust , no power as it is coming down.
451 som is nothing in real combat, russians also had large quantities we saw what happened.
 

BaburKhan

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451 som is nothing in real combat, russians also had large quantities we saw what happened.

With KTJ-3200, I think several new SOM ALCM will be produced. Instead of 250 - 300 km Range, the Range will be increased to 500 km. Beside SOM Gezgin is also needed for Land and Sea launching Plattforms.
 

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451 som is nothing in real combat, russians also had large quantities we saw what happened.
The Turkish leadership plans their procurement based on the threats they are facing. What is more important is the production capacity, which is in good hands. Don't forget that missiles, and ammunition in general have an expiration date.
 

Yasar_TR

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451 som is nothing in real combat, russians also had large quantities we saw what happened.
Why don’t you read the whole post in its entirety and understand the message being tried to be conveyed; in stead of picking a single statement.

1. In 2018 415 piece order was given for SOM. We don’t know if further orders were given or not. These are state secrets in essence. They will not disclose the exact amounts.
2. Then it was only SOM-A missiles that were in production. Now we have SOM-B missiles with block 1 and 2 versions in production. These are bunker buster versions.
3. There is work being carried out on SOM-C missiles that will have capability to target moving sea targets. It may already be in production for all we know.
4. Soon there will be SOM-J to go in to production. This is a smaller version specially produced for KAAN’s inner compartment and Akinci UAV. This missile can hit moving sea targets too.

These missiles are air launched missiles. Firstly they are expensive and their usage depends on availability of air platforms. Only 2 per plane is the norm. Hence their numbers are limited. But definitely are stored in numbers more than what we are led to believe we have.

We have thousands of continuous production of HGK and KGK kits that are used to make dumb bombs smart. These kits are fitted on to 4 different weights of MK81(250lb) to MK84(2000lb) dumb bombs that airforce has; turning them in to smart bombs with precision guidance. In KGK’s case, rendering them as stand off munitions. We have special versions of these with different seeker heads like TEBER, GOZDE, GOKCE etc

1699209988863.jpeg

1699210063060.jpeg

1699210183251.jpeg

This is just the few of the air launched smart munitions and missiles we have.
Then there are surface to surface smart bombs, missiles and smart artillery rockets we use. Then the tactical missiles.
TSK will not reveal their arsenal’s inventory to you and me. So don’t say it is not enough. They know what they need and stock it accordingly. They have been burnt badly before when they ran out of HE tank rounds.
 
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Knowledgeseeker

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Not for my country,with all the conflicts going on we surely need more of everything mentioned.;););)
Not everything is advertised, the most important is that Turkiye is able to produce such missiles, or bombs in record time when needed. In this last year alone Turkey has exported a lot of missiles/bombs and has taken advantage of the global tensions taking place.
 

Maximilien Robespierre

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Why don’t you read the whole post in its entirety and understand the message being tried to be conveyed; in stead of picking a single statement.

1. In 2018 415 piece order was given for SOM. We don’t know if further orders were given or not. These are state secrets in essence. They will not disclose the exact amounts.
2. Then it was only SOM-A missiles that were in production. Now we have SOM-B missiles with block 1 and 2 versions in production. These are bunker buster versions.
3. There is work being carried out on SOM-C missiles that will have capability to target moving sea targets. It may already be in production for all we know.
4. Soon there will be SOM-J to go in to production. This is a smaller version specially produced for KAAN’s inner compartment and Akinci UAV. This missile can hit moving sea targets too.

These missiles are air launched missiles. Firstly they are expensive and their usage depends on availability of air platforms. Only 2 per plane is the norm. Hence their numbers are limited. But definitely are stored in numbers more than what we are led to believe we have.

We have thousands of continuous production of HGK and KGK kits that are used to make dumb bombs smart. These kits are fitted on to 4 different weights of MK81(250lb) to MK84(2000lb) dumb bombs that airforce has; turning them in to smart bombs with precision guidance. In KGK’s case, rendering them as stand off munitions. We have special versions of these with different seeker heads like TEBER, GOZDE, GOKCE etc

View attachment 62620
View attachment 62621
View attachment 62622
This is just the few of the air launched smart munitions and missiles we have.
Then there are surface to surface smart bombs, missiles and smart artillery rockets we use. Than the tactical missiles.
TSK will not reveal their arsenal’s inventory to you and me. So don’t say it is not enough. They know what they need and stock it accordingly. They have been burnt badly before when they ran out of HE tank rounds.
Production needs to Increase In battle situations stuff get depleted easily that was my point.
 

Cabatli_TR

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We discussed in another Thread about necessarity of having ASBM Capabillity for TAF in the Cyprus and Aegean Theater. The french want a Base in southern Cyprus and they also sent Warships when Tensions were High with Greece. From this point of View it's likely they will send a CSG in any Event of War.

In this Thread we should Discus Measures which should be Taken to counter any deployment of CSG by France or in other Nation.

If I remember correctly, Naval strike systems were discussed in two phases in 2017 strategic plan. The first is domestic missile systems that will be used against protected enemy naval elements as a basic strike doctrine (systems with similar propulsion technology such as Atmaca, Çakır) and second domestic elements is advanced strike systems developed against enemy elements with high levels of protection (probably talking about supersonic anti-ship missiles as Mr. Okumuş has also mentioned later).


This situation has become much more evident in recent years and mentioned product family has started to become much wider than the one written in the plan. For example;

Drone/TRLG concept is a technology that will have extremely painful consequences for enemy

At the same time, ballistic missiles with seeker heads are systems that are extremely difficult to intercept at the terminal stage

Apart from this, swarm kamikaze USVs in many different options, be them semi/full-submersible or not, can cause serious pressure on enemy elements with effective strategy.

In addition, Shore based Atmaca/Çakır combination will create one of the most effective solutions to saturate enemy elements from safe distance.

Likewise, there will be air-launched Ramjet missiles, turbojet SOMs, Atmacas, Çakırs and Gezgins.

The Kargı and Alpagut families will put serious pressure on enemy sea elements with their swarm functions.

One day When we need to put all these elements on the field against an enemy, it won't matter who will be against us. A country that can only predict what might happen to it should know not to look for madness against Turkiye when all of them become operational...
 

Maximilien Robespierre

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If I remember correctly, Naval strike systems were discussed in two phases in 2017 strategic plan. The first is domestic missile systems that will be used against protected enemy naval elements as a basic strike doctrine (systems with similar propulsion technology such as Atmaca, Çakır) and second domestic elements is advanced strike systems developed against enemy elements with high levels of protection (probably talking about supersonic anti-ship missiles as Mr. Okumuş has also mentioned later).


This situation has become much more evident in recent years and mentioned product family has started to become much wider than the one written in the plan. For example;

Drone/TRLG concept is a technology that will have extremely painful consequences for enemy

At the same time, ballistic missiles with seeker heads are systems that are extremely difficult to intercept at the terminal stage

Apart from this, swarm kamikaze USVs in many different options, be them semi/full-submersible or not, can cause serious pressure on enemy elements with effective strategy.

In addition, Shore based Atmaca/Çakır combination will create one of the most effective solutions to saturate enemy elements from safe distance.

Likewise, there will be air-launched Ramjet missiles, turbojet SOMs, Atmacas, Çakırs and Gezgins.

The Kargı and Alpagut families will put serious pressure on enemy sea elements with their swarm functions.

One day When we need to put all these elements on the field against an enemy, it won't matter who will be against us. A country that can only predict what might happen to it should know not to look for madness against Turkiye when all of them become operational...
Mass production is the key, also the reason I said som should be mass produces like that cruise missile is a big threat against everything greeks or any other enemies have In this geography.

We saw how russians were bragging about having lots of missiles etc Unlike them our missiles do hit their targets but having 400 cruise missiles is a low numbers.
 

Ryder

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Mass production is the key, also the reason I said som should be mass produces like that cruise missile is a big threat against everything greeks or any other enemies have In this geography.

We saw how russians were bragging about having lots of missiles etc Unlike them our missiles do hit their targets but having 400 cruise missiles is a low numbers.

In Turkiye mass production has to be spread out.

The problem is we made Istanbul the economic hub rather than spreading it out again into the country.

There is a reason why Ataturk made Ankara the capital so the Turks do not feel vulnerable again once again we are committing mistakes again by making Istanbul the centre of attention.
 

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451 som is nothing in real combat, russians also had large quantities we saw what happened.
Actually 495 because first 80 were ordered and then additional 415.

Such weapons are never mass produced because expensive, only used for high priority targets and they also have a shelf life. That's why cruise missiles and other strategic weapons etc. are produced in smaller scales over a period of time, actually everywhere around the world. Note the SOM C1/C2 are still in development same with SOM-J.

It's all a question of $$$ and btw. why are we developing smaller, cheaper missiles with similar capabilities? Because wasting a SOM for let's say a enemy SAM or radar station is not worth it. You use them to destroy strategic targets.

Russians have quantity but their quality (precision) is really bad as we saw in Ukraine, thanks to the Soviet doctrine.
 

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