TR Navy Navy|News & Discussions

[AlperTunga]

Exactly!
Istif is fast and agile and very competent. In an inland sea like Mediterranean and especially in the Aegean and the Adriatic it is of more use to us than a Kimon size frigate; particularly in numbers. So if we can increase the numbers of İstif class ships and most importantly get quad packed Hisar-D missiles in to that MIDLAS, we will have the upper hand. Also it mustn’t be forgotten that we have been receiving the ESSM latest block, point defence missiles. These are retrofittable in to our MIDLAS in quad packed form too.

TCG Istanbul to be equipped with HİSAR and ESSM Missiles | TURDEF

The TCG Istanbul (F-515) Frigate will have a 16-cell National Vertical Launch System (MDAS), which Roketsan continues to develop.

turdef.com

Another point that needs to be made is that Kimon carries a mixture of Aster15 and Aster 30 missiles. These missiles can not be quad packed. Only 24 of Kimon‘s VLS cells are used by Aster15/30 mix. The other 8 cells is for 180+km range Exocet AShM use. We have 16 slanted canisters for our 250+km Atmaca AShMs.

If instead of using AI sources, if you investigate and weigh the pluses and minuses of both ships more carefully, you will find that İstif is not just a pretty face. Only recently had I read an article written by an Italian defence correspondent weighing Kimon and İstif against Fincatieri’s 5600ton frigate and finding that in spite of it’s smaller size it packed a hell of a good punch, outclassing both ships in a number of areas, especially in closed seas full of islands.

That article was already referred to among the references and I read it as well. That's why above I mentioned quadpack is a must for Istif, and actually also for MEKO frigates and ADA class as well. We are saying the same thing basically, Kimon is more advanced technologically but Istif has good strike capabilities and not far behind. It will also be developed and updated further. So above my conlcusion, build more of it (and don't sell, at least not now !). I was so far sceptical of AI but it seems it is really useful.

 

[TR_123456]

Exactly!
Istif is fast and agile and very competent. In an inland sea like Mediterranean and especially in the Aegean and the Adriatic it is of more use to us than a Kimon size frigate; particularly in numbers. So if we can increase the numbers of İstif class ships and most importantly get quad packed Hisar-D missiles in to that MIDLAS, we will have the upper hand. Also it mustn’t be forgotten that we have been receiving the ESSM latest block, point defence missiles. These are retrofittable in to our MIDLAS in quad packed form too.

TCG Istanbul to be equipped with HİSAR and ESSM Missiles | TURDEF

The TCG Istanbul (F-515) Frigate will have a 16-cell National Vertical Launch System (MDAS), which Roketsan continues to develop.

turdef.com

Another point that needs to be made is that Kimon carries a mixture of Aster15 and Aster 30 missiles. These missiles can not be quad packed. Only 24 of Kimon‘s VLS cells are used by Aster15/30 mix. The other 8 cells is for 180+km range Exocet AShM use. We have 16 slanted canisters for our 250+km Atmaca AShMs.

If instead of using AI sources, if you investigate and weigh the pluses and minuses of both ships more carefully, you will find that İstif is not just a pretty face. Only recently had I read an article written by an Italian defence correspondent weighing Kimon and İstif against Fincatieri’s 5600ton frigate and finding that in spite of it’s smaller size it packed a hell of a good punch, outclassing both ships in a number of areas, especially in closed seas full of islands.

So,what you are saying is that we need all 8 Istif class frigates for our navy?
There is the Black Sea also,not counting the Med(the rest can handle it for now)?

 

[AlperTunga]

I realize AI summaries are not well received in this forum and I won't be doing it anymore. But just a final illustration (some of the references I was able to reach but others required subscription). At the end though, the verification of all these claims can only be confirmed in the battlefield.

how can Akya counteract sylenia decoy in Belharra frigates?

To counteract the Sylena Mk1/Mk2 decoy systems on Belharra (FDI) frigates, the Akya heavy torpedo employs advanced signal processing and multi-sensor logic designed specifically to defeat modern "soft-kill" countermeasures.

Counter-Countermeasure (CCM) Mechanisms
The Akya torpedo uses several distinct methods to discriminate between a Belharra's hull and the decoys launched by its Lacroix Sylena system:

• Broadband Acoustic Mapping: While the Canto decoys (often paired with Sylena launchers) create a "curtain" of broadband noise to jam torpedo sensors, the Akya uses high-resolution broadband sonar to "see through" the noise by identifying the physical dimensions and wake of the ship.
• Spatial Discrimination: The Akya’s guidance system is programmed to recognize the specific acoustic signature of a moving frigate versus the stationary or slow-drifting acoustic clouds generated by Sylena's SEALAT/Canto payloads.
• Re-Attack Logic: If the torpedo is successfully seduced by a decoy, its "intelligence" recognizes the sudden loss of the target's expected kinematic behavior (e.g., the target "stopping" or changing signature abruptly). It then enters a re-acquisition mode, performing a circular or snake-like search pattern to find the original ship again.
• Fiber-Optic Guidance: In many configurations, the Akya is wire-guided. This allows the launching submarine's operators to use the ship's powerful sonar suite to manually differentiate the frigate from the decoys and "steer" the torpedo past the jammed area

Primary References

• Roketsan Official Specifications: Technical data confirms that the Akya is a new-generation heavyweight torpedo (HWT) equipped with an active/passive sonar homing head featuring integrated Acoustic Counter-Countermeasure (ACCM) capabilities.
• Naval Group & Lacroix Defense: Documentation for the FDI (Belharra) frigate confirms its primary soft-kill defense is the Sylena Mk1/Mk2 system. While the Mk1 focuses on RF/IR missile decoys, the Mk2 (and the frigate's auxiliary CMLS launchers) specifically deploys Canto anti-torpedo decoys designed by Naval Group.
• Defense News & Analysis: Reports from Janes Defense and Naval News detail the Akya's use of fiber-optic wire guidance, which allows the launching submarine to provide "human-in-the-loop" correction to bypass broadband jamming.

Technical Context for Countermeasures

• Wake Homing: Akya's specific use of wake-homing guidance is a key reference point for counteracting decoys; unlike acoustic sensors that can be "foamed" by Canto decoys, wake sensors track the physical turbulence of the ship's propellers, which decoys cannot replicate.
• Kinematic Analysis: Professional journals such as MDPI and CFC Forces discuss modern torpedo logic (like that in Akya) which uses spatial discrimination to reject decoys that do not match the expected speed or maneuverability of a frigate-sized target

At the end of the day, the race Counter-Countermeasure will just continue. But since we have full control in Istif, and Greece will be dependent on France or others, the clear winner in the long-term is obvious. With the condition that we should continue our efforts to improve.

 

[Yasar_TR]

So,what you are saying is that we need all 8 Istif class frigates for our navy?
There is the Black Sea also,not counting the Med(the rest can handle it for now)?

If ship to ship fighting is to be done, or naval forces are to be involved in closed seas, then smaller, more agile ones in more numbers will have the upper hand.
However, the latest naval skirmishes and warfare has shown us that in closed seas having ships of frigate sizes serve nothing more than “posturing”.

In real life these are just dead weights waiting to be sunk if you have the means. Check out one of the most powerful navies in the world. Stuck in the Black Sea ports. Trying to stop incoming killer drones, somehow helplessly.

We don’t really need such powerful ships for the Aegean, apart from carrying the flag in peace time. But for Mediterranean and further afield, we need all 8 and more in the form of heavier frigates.
Same for Black Sea. If push comes to shove then they may be used.
But logically with current technology levels, sailing in the Black Sea with a frigate is an invitation for drones like sugar for honey bees.

Instead of spending more money for ships in the Aegean or Black Sea, we should concentrate on longer range and anti radar versions of Kara Atmaca missiles and Typhoon block 4 that can hit moving sea targets.

UAVs like Aksungur flying and relaying positional information to these missiles are more valuable. UAVs that can fire CAKIR and Atmaca from stand off ranges are deadlier and cheaper than any frigate in such closed in seas are going to be..

Our USVs with 400+ km ranges will prove to be more of a deterrent than any frigate in the Aegean. STM500 submarines will be of more value in such seas.
But these are not expensive items to have any cream to skim off of. Will the upper management go for them?

 

[boredaf]

Our USVs with 400+ km ranges will prove to be more of a deterrent than any frigate in the Aegean. STM500 submarines will be of more value in such seas.

Couldn't agree more with this. We need USVs that can fire at least Çakır but ideally Atmaca in the Aegean, a distributed network of several USVs with one of these missiles would pose a great risk against any enemy than a frigate with the same number of missiles.

In fact, it was up to me I would go high-low with the USVs as well. If Roketsan's Eren is everything they claim to be, I would put that on Ulaq USvs, which are smaller and send them ahead while Marlin's with Atmaca's follow behind and synchronise their launches so that they reach the enemy around the same time, or at least appear on the radar around the same time. Let them pick and choose their targets.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Aren't Exocet launchers behind radar mast? Why would they need to use VLS for them?

I have a feeling the French ship has that. But Greek Kimon doesn’t. Here are pictures taken from delivery ceremony. Can you see any Exocet canisters?

Ships are quite modular. Later they can be added if needed. First French one had 16 cell VLS . This one has 32 cells.

 

[AlperTunga]

If ship to ship fighting is to be done, or naval forces are to be involved in closed seas, then smaller, more agile ones in more numbers will have the upper hand.
However, the latest naval skirmishes and warfare has shown us that in closed seas having ships of frigate sizes serve nothing more than “posturing”.

In real life these are just dead weights waiting to be sunk if you have the means. Check out one of the most powerful navies in the world. Stuck in the Black Sea ports. Trying to stop incoming killer drones, somehow helplessly.

We don’t really need such powerful ships for the Aegean, apart from carrying the flag in peace time. But for Mediterranean and further afield, we need all 8 and more in the form of heavier frigates.
Same for Black Sea. If push comes to shove then they may be used.
But logically with current technology levels, sailing in the Black Sea with a frigate is an invitation for drones like sugar for honey bees.

Instead of spending more money for ships in the Aegean or Black Sea, we should concentrate on longer range and anti radar versions of Kara Atmaca missiles and Typhoon block 4 that can hit moving sea targets.

UAVs like Aksungur flying and relaying positional information to these missiles are more valuable. UAVs that can fire CAKIR and Atmaca from stand off ranges are deadlier and cheaper than any frigate in such closed in seas are going to be..

Our USVs with 400+ km ranges will prove to be more of a deterrent than any frigate in the Aegean. STM500 submarines will be of more value in such seas.
But these are not expensive items to have any cream to skim off of. Will the upper management go for them?

Currently we have one modernized MEKO and one Istif. Of course, we need all 8 Istif irrespective of how drone threats may have changed the situation. We need them to project power in our vicinity, and protect sea trade routes. The arguments above however somehow invalidate the argument that we should have more than 8 to increase our surface strike capacity (because of 16 ATMACAs). Indeed, we should find more effective ways to improve our strike capacity and use ISTIF and TF-2000 for specific tasks like ASW, Air Defence etc. Long range coastal ATMACA/GEZGIN together with anti-ship BMs can deter air carriers coming close to us. So certainly very valueable. As well as larger loitering kamikaze drones that are stealth and have long reach > 1000km.

 

[CAN_TR]

With our large UCAV fleet have the upperhand in surveillance, reconnaissance and target acquisation, we have a variety of USV's from kamikaze to AShM launching ones, Kara ATMACA and ballistic missiles, a combination with small FAC's at most and submarines like STM500 would be more than enough to deter anyone in the Aegean and Black Sea. I also believe that we don't need any frigates in the Black and Aegean Sea.

Another question, do we really need 10 Hisar-class OPV's?

 

[Tornadoss]

I have a feeling the French ship has that. But Greek Kimon doesn’t. Here are pictures taken from delivery ceremony. Can you see any Exocet canisters?

Ships are quite modular. Later they can be added if needed. First French one had 16 cell VLS . This one has 32 cells.

View attachment 79354
View attachment 79355

Here from aerial view there is maybe not yet cannisters yet(from May 2025 ) But you can see the exhaust for the missiles .

 

[Yasar_TR]

With our large UCAV fleet have the upperhand in surveillance, reconnaissance and target acquisation, we have a variety of USV's from kamikaze to AShM launching ones, Kara ATMACA and ballistic missiles, a combination with small FAC's at most and submarines like STM500 would be more than enough to deter anyone in the Aegean and Black Sea. I also believe that we don't need any frigates in the Black and Aegean Sea.

Another question for me is, do we really need 10 Hisar-class OPV's?

We may need those OPVs more than we realise. It is not feasible to send a Kimon or even I-Class size frigate to patrol your shores or protect your off shore assets.

An Offshore patrol vessel (OPV) in a navy is a small, versatile, and cost-effective warship designed for long-endurance maritime security, policing, rather than high-intensity combat. They protect Exclusive Economic Zones (EEZs), conduct anti-smuggling/counter-terrorism ops, and support disaster relief when required.
Our OPVs however, can be so well armed thanks to their FFBNW (fitted for but not with) set up that they can be slower yet very potent combatants for littoral and off shore duties. Apart from them being void of a gas turbine propulsion, they are Infact being envisaged with more armaments than our current ADA Class corvettes, making them real bad-ass corvettes. They will release ships like I-class for other more further afield duties.

We have 16 Tuzla Class patrol Boats that can give real good near shore protection. Adding 10 of these Hisar Class ships will introduce another layer to protect our near and offshore assets with long endurance.
To add : Ada Class Ships’ armament and self protection need to be upgraded to bring them to more current levels.

 

[Pokemonte13]

We still don’t know what the final design will be. I imagine the navy wanted more firepower that’s why the vls was added and vls is not ffbnw. Maybe 6 or 5 will be a heavy corvette and the rest opvs.