TR Navy Navy|News & Discussions

[TR_123456]

"Signed on 8 April in Ankara, the agreement establishes a flexible contractual structure enabling the Turkish Navy to procure maintenance, repair and technical services from Navantia on a periodic or as-needed basis through request-for-quotation procedures. The framework will remain in force for three years, with an option to extend for a further three years."

So,they couldnt have trained Turkish personnel during the build?
This is a big disappointment.

 

[AlperTunga]

You are very much mistaken I am afraid.
Those calculations are done sparingly, taking today’s money in consideration. Come 2030s those figures will have increased pro rata, with inflation.

The destroyers and frigates you have to allocate to your battle group is for the battle group. Your naval force proper has its own destroyers and frigates. They may be used for either job. But in terms of numbers you have to have extra for your battlegroup. Otherwise we end up like Brits, who are having to borrow escort vessels from Dutch Navy because they haven’t produced 12 Daring Class destroyers as planned and only have 6 instead.

You don’t produce navalised fighter jets for your land located airforce. Naval airforce is separate. (That is why there is a Rafale Marine and there is a F35-C)

I hope we will have the finance to afford such extravagance.
But just look at our Assault ship. What makes it a power multiplier is the number and variety of helicopters it has. At the moment we don’t have enough helicopters to place on it. Heck! We had to revert to using land forces’ cast off of 40 + year old obsolete attack helicopters. None of our Chinooks are navalised.
It hasn’t got proper protection either. All it has is 2 old pre used phalanx CIWS. It also needs a Tepe destroyer. Why is it lacking all these? Bad planning? Financial constraints? Bad policies?

If we were good in planning & policies we wouldn't have a per capita GDP of $15K today but rather > $50K.

I have read somewhere that 1+3 Tepe class are planned for production and for MUGEM 2 more may be produced. So look at the bright side, without MUGEM we would have only 4 Tepe! And that 2 additional TEPE is always a plus. So building MUGEM (irrespective of the reason) would still be useful

Not sure how relevant is this idea in a military sense but also think about the sudden attack scenario from Greece and Israel. If during that time MUGEM is in indien ocean that means we will have a carrier strike group as well as 50 fighter jets (or KE etc.) untouched and ready to come for help.

 

[dBSPL]

If we were good in planning & policies we wouldn't have a per capita GDP of $15K today but rather > $50K.

I have read somewhere that 1+3 Tepe class are planned for production and for MUGEM 2 more may be produced. So look at the bright side, without MUGEM we would have only 4 Tepe! And that 2 additional TEPE is always a plus. So building MUGEM (irrespective of the reason) would still be useful

Not sure how relevant is this idea in a military sense but also think about the sudden attack scenario from Greece and Israel. If during that time MUGEM is in indien ocean that means we will have a carrier strike group as well as 50 fighter jets (or KE etc.) untouched and ready to come for help.

When the project was first announced in the late 1990s, the goal was to build (or acquire) a total of 6 air defense frigates. This was the target when the Request for Information (RFI) was published in 1996. Due to the 1999 Gölcük earthquake and the subsequent economic crisis in the early 2000s, the project's budget and scope were affected, or rather, it became the subject of some speculation, with some publications suggesting that the planned number of ships was reduced to 4. When the MİLGEM project was reconsidered as its final phase, as far as I remember, the initial IDEF launch mentioned 7 ships, and this was later written and discussed as 4 + 4 (Block I and subsequent phases). Currently, the target is to have 8 air defense destroyers.

In short, except for a brief period in the early 2000s, I don't think the TF-2000 (Tepe) project ever being limited to four, and even then, the goal was to proceed in blocks. However, I think the most accurate statement here would be that the Turkish Navy has truly needed at least four air defense vessel for a very long time (about 20 years).

The Turkish Navy is under significant expansion pressure, as its sphere of influence and the maritime area it must control are expanding as much as possible. The MUGEM program makes some needs even more critical. Perhaps in the future, we will be operating two different task forces in two different seas, and while these are on active duty, we will be trying to maintain the cycle required by numerous overseas bases, as well as the security of the territorial waters and exclusive economic zone of a homeland surrounded by seas on three sides.

Some defense enthusiasts often consider all ships to be on active duty when looking at the inventory and/or planning. However, while some ships are on active duty, others are in reserve, some are conducting training/exercises, and others are undergoing maintenance in the shipyard.

TL;DR, TCG Anadolu and perhaps MUGEM, which we will see in the 2030s, will inevitably change the silhouette of the Turkish navy. You might be able to manage just barely in peacetime, but I believe that even the current plan consisting of 8 destroyers will not be sufficient when the waters get really hot. Yes, each one will be astronomically expensive, but that's the reality. IMHO, MUGEM's indirect impact will be roughly equivalent to creating a medium-sized navy.

 

[boredaf]

Those destroyers, frigates, and MILDEN you are counting in the cost are already needed. The fighter jets are also needed anyhow (they being navalized does not hurt).

No, they are not. We need those ships and submarines in our own waters, so, we need more to put around a carrier. And, Milden is useless in a carrier group, we would need to develop a nuclear submarine from scratch. And turning a jet into a naval jet is not something done willy nilly, nor could it be done to all of the jets, so they have to be specifically made for a carrier as well.

All of these will be costs that are added upon the cost of the carrier AND on top of all the ships and jets we need for our navy and air force.

That 5-6bn dollars will largely be spent domestically, so it will support national production through multiplier effect.

I fucking hate this rhetoric, military spending does not go beyond very specialised segments of the economy, it is not an overall "stimulus package". Given that majority of those companies will be private or have shareholders, most of that money will end up as profit in a bank account.

Also, we can use MUGEM in various ways to project power, and also as a springboard to deploy missiles and drones, including Super Simsek for targets that are trying to attack us from a further distance.

We don't bloody need an aircraft carrier to launch drones or bloody target drone turned kamikaze drones.

Not sure how relevant is this idea in a military sense but also think about the sudden attack scenario from Greece and Israel. If during that time MUGEM is in indien ocean that means we will have a carrier strike group as well as 50 fighter jets (or KE etc.) untouched and ready to come for help.

Good fucking luck to any carrier group trying to go through the Red Sea or Suez during war time, that would be like sitting ducks holding barrels full of fish with big targets painted on them. In your scenario, best that carrier group can hope for is India staying neutral and not joining in to hunt them while they try to dock in Pakistan, that's it.

Just thinking out loud. What if MUGEM will sail as part of NATO ((GB/Italy/Spain) another pact doesn't make sense) until we can learn everything about it and have sufficient number of everything it needs?

If people in charge are making plans based on that assumption, they are utter fucking morons. We are not the UK. We cannot make our plans based on our current allies will remain so in case of a war. UK cannot even form a carrier group around her own carriers without leaving its shores bare, can you really expect them to send warships to us? Spain barely has a navy worth talking about as of now, (they have what 5 modern frigates?) and Italy has its own carrier and LHDs to protect.

And never mind all of that, if we cannot protect a carrier from the moment it is commissioned with the necessary warships AND supply/fuel it with auxiliary ships WITHOUT leaving our other fleets short, we have no business even talking about one. And let's not even talk about thinking about putting damned Hürjet on a carrier in 2040s.

 

[boredaf]

IMHO, MUGEM's indirect impact will be roughly equivalent to creating a medium-sized navy.

We can do all of that without adding the unnecessary financial burden of a carrier that can get locked in the Mediterranean in case of a real war.