TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[adenl]

As our UAV technology is improving and our UAV fleet is developing to be a force to reckon with, I would like to see cheap but very effective stand off missiles being used from UAV’s like Aksungur and Akinci to attack multi purpose targets.
Our 210kg TRLG230 could be a great addition to serve this purpose. It has a range of 70 km when fired from ground. If fired from 30000ft, as it will not have to overcome gravity and will be travelling through rarified air with less air drag, it will have a range well in excess of 150km. This missile reaches speeds of 4.2 Mach as it dives from 25km altitude. This would be a supersonic stand off missile very hard to intercept with an explosive weight of 50 kg. Both Aksungur and Akinci can carry 2 and 4 of these respectively. If it can be fitted with the right seeker head, it can be made to hit moving sea targets as well.
Why Turkish military has not gone through this route is hard to understand.

TRLG-230 new generation laser-guided artillery missile

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan gave a speech at the Opening Ceremony of Roketsan's Satellite Launch, Space Systems and Advanced Technologies Research Centre and...

www.defensehere.com

Good idea. Perhaps they are working on it, but currently, Kuzgun is on the horizon which is also cheap and can be fitted with a turbojet engine for extra range.

 

[Turko]

As our UAV technology is improving and our UAV fleet is developing to be a force to reckon with, I would like to see cheap but very effective stand off missiles being used from UAV’s like Aksungur and Akinci to attack multi purpose targets.
Our 210kg TRLG230 could be a great addition to serve this purpose. It has a range of 70 km when fired from ground. If fired from 30000ft, as it will not have to overcome gravity and will be travelling through rarified air with less air drag, it will have a range well in excess of 150km. This missile reaches speeds of 4.2 Mach as it dives from 25km altitude. This would be a supersonic stand off missile very hard to intercept with an explosive weight of 50 kg. Both Aksungur and Akinci can carry 2 and 4 of these respectively. If it can be fitted with the right seeker head, it can be made to hit moving sea targets as well.
Why Turkish military has not gone through this route is hard to understand.

TRLG-230 new generation laser-guided artillery missile

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan gave a speech at the Opening Ceremony of Roketsan's Satellite Launch, Space Systems and Advanced Technologies Research Centre and...

www.defensehere.com

TRG-230 TRG 300 anti-radiation variants also would be great as Chinese did.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Good idea. Perhaps they are working on it, but currently, Kuzgun is on the horizon which is also cheap and can be fitted with a turbojet engine for extra range.

Turbojet engine would make it subsonic hence more expensive and more susceptible to air defence systems. A booster like the engine of trg230 would be more useful. Just an idea!

 

[Yasar_TR]

TRG-230 TRG 300 anti-radiation variants also would be great as Chinese did.

Not just the Chinese but Israel is actually using TRG300 equivalent named “Rampage”. They use 4 of these from a f16.

Let's talk about the Israeli 'Rampage' weapon reportedly used in Syria for the first time

The Rampage is expected to be a stand-off weapon and was probably inspired by the downing of an Israeli F-16 by Syrian air defenses in 2018.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Huelague]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1353640008738091009

I hope they don’t hit the jellyfish

 

[AzeriTank]

Turbojet engine would make it subsonic hence more expensive and more susceptible to air defence systems. A booster like the engine of trg230 would be more useful. Just an idea!

with 3D technology, it is really cheap now as it has small engine... and super easy to make with many numbers..

 

[Yasar_TR]

with 3D technology, it is really cheap now as it has small engine... and super easy to make with many numbers..

TRI-40 used in Atmaca and SOM costs 100thousand+ dollars. We were paying around 150K for them at one point.
TRI-60 variants cost between 52000dollars to 83000dollars.
Even the radio controlled model jet engines are in excess of 40000 dollars.
So just the engine costs more than a trg230!
The whole idea of artillery rockets is the fact that hey are cheap and can be expended in quantity without breaking the bank!
Price of them may go up a bit because of a complex seeker head implementation. But nevertheless they are still much cheaper than the jet engined subsonic missiles.

https://www.forecastinternational.com/samples/F655_CompleteSample.pdf

 

[AzeriTank]

TRI-40 used in Atmaca and SOM costs 100thousand+ dollars. We were paying around 150K for them at one point.
TRI-60 variants cost between 52000dollars to 83000dollars.
Even the radio controlled model jet engines are in excess of 40000 dollars.
So just the engine costs more than a trg230!
The whole idea of artillery rockets is the fact that hey are cheap and can be expended in quantity without breaking the bank!
Price of them may go up a bit because of a complex seeker head implementation. But nevertheless they are still much cheaper than the jet engined subsonic missiles.

https://www.forecastinternational.com/samples/F655_CompleteSample.pdf

if we go that way, i am able to say that 155mm artillery is way heaper that TRG 230. it will not take us anywhere... TRG230 goes to 70km far but Som goes 300km far away, plus as i mentioned, you are able to make 1000km version easily... do you really compare them with each other??
one brings 250kg warhead another 50kg.
Also, if france sell it to that price doesnt mean this is how much it cost to them to make it, or it will cost to Turkey that much... i can write the whole book about their differences...

 

[Yasar_TR]

if we go that way, i am able to say that 155mm artillery is way heaper that TRG 230. it will not take us anywhere... TRG230 goes to 70km far but Som goes 300km far away, plus as i mentioned, you are able to make 1000km version easily... do you really compare them with each other??
one brings 250kg warhead another 50kg.
Also, if france sell it to that price doesnt mean this is how much it cost to them to make it, or it will cost to Turkey that much... i can write the whole book about their differences...

Again you are mixing apples with pears. TRG230 is a cheap artillery rocket. It has longer reach than a 155mm shell. And it is very accurate. It is high supersonic. Very fast. TRG230 has a ballistic trajectory. SOM is a different missile altogether. Very expensive and a tactical cruise missile. Totally different end uses.

 

[dustdevil]

Let us translate it if you don’t mind;
The effective range of MAM-L ammunition has been improved to 15 km.
Actually it is the laser guided version that has been improved. But this is a free fall ammunition. So it glides to it‘s target. It has no propellant force. How it’s range is extended beats me. Unless they have changed it’s aerodynamic structure by altering wing geometry etc! Or now the TB2 can release it from much higher altitudes.

Hey, I'm usually sceptical about those kind of websites and my post is not aimed towards you (I see, like me, you question this information too)

The evidence for 15 km is just an animation. It still says range is 14 km for INS/GPS guided mode. And what the hell 8 km range means now (the animation lists 8 -15 km for range ), is it the minimum range???

Why would it be lesser than the laser guided mode (15km now according to website)? It does not make sense to me and it's possible that the 15 km is 14.x rounded up, or a mistake, or some information leak..

Why those "military news" websites just don't call Roketsan and ask?

Do they think it is "reporting" when they take an animation for a source, create some news and never ask anything.

By the way, Roketsan site still says "8 km (Opsiyonel Ataletsel Navigasyon Sistemi/Küresel Konumlama Sistemi özelliği ile 14 km)"

 

[AzeriTank]

Again you are mixing apples with pears. TRG230 is a cheap artillery rocket. It has longer reach than a 155mm shell. And it is very accurate. It is high supersonic. Very fast. TRG230 has a ballistic trajectory. SOM is a different missile altogether. Very expensive and a tactical cruise missile. Totally different end uses.

thats exactly what i was saying, you compare TRG 230 with SOM missile which are totally different...

 

[azaher77]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1355434588605198338

new deliveries of HGK-82 guidance kits, which give Mk-82 unguided general purpose bombs a precision strike capability with its guidance capability.

 

[Yasar_TR]

thats exactly what i was saying, you compare TRG 230 with SOM missile which are totally different...

No I was not! You have misunderstood! I was only giving an example of how expensive a micro jet engine is. Somebody suggested to use a microjet engine to drive kuzgun ammunition. I said it is cheaper to use a solid fuel engine like the one on trg230 to make it faster and cheaper. Then you said micro jet engines are cheaper. I was just showing that a micro jet engine costs a lot more than the trg230 missile. Kuzgun ammunition is not really heavy and powerful enough to warrant the use of a micro jet engine drive.
If you check the specifics of Kuzgun:

• Modular Warhead (Particle, Thermobaric, General Purpose, Penetrating Warheads)
• GPS, INS guidance options
• High sensitivity and low half damage
• Low operation cost as guidance and warhead can be determined according to the type of operation
• High warhead efficiency
• Modular wing option (common basic design for swing / fixed wing, thrust / non-thrust variants depending on operational range requirement)
• GPS independent guidance options (INS and LAB, A-INS and Infrared Seeker, data link, mmW Radar)
• Multiple Transport and Drop Off

So it is a cheap multi purpose bomb. Best used with rocket boosters or KGK or the winged version HGK kits to achieve longer ranges. It can be a free-fall guided missile, a rocket propelled small anti ship missile, it can be used from surface to surface , air to surface with multiple propellants.
But it is cheap and expendable in quantities. So a cheap drive/propellant is necessary.

 

[Test7]

New Deliveries of HGK-82 Guidance Kits to TAF​

New deliveries of the Precision Guidance Kit HGK-82, developed by TÜBİTAK SAGE, to the Turkish Armed Forces were made.


Deliveries of HGK-82, an important element of our air power, which was developed by TÜBİTAK SAGE and mass-produced by ASELSAN, continue. Regarding the subject, Defense Industry President Prof. Dr. In the statement made by İsmail Demir, “The delivery of our guidance kits, the important element of our air power, continues. We made new deliveries of HGK-82 guidance kits, which give Mk-82 unguided general purpose bombs a precision strike capability with its guidance capability. statements took place.

Mark series general purpose bombs, which gained guidance feature thanks to their precision Guidance Kits, are used by the Turkish Air Force's F-16 and F-4E type warplanes.

Integration of HGK and KGK to ANKA + and AKSUNGUR had started​

Integration of the Precision Guidance Kit (HGK) and Winged Guidance Kit (KGK) developed by TÜBİTAK SAGE to the twin-engine AKSUNGUR and single-engine ANKA + UAVs developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) had begun. TÜBİTAK SAGE Institute Director Gürcan Okumuş shared the development on his Twitter account.

Emphasizing that our domestic ammunition is integrated into our domestic UAVs with our own software and algorithms, Okumuş said, “This capability will be a very important power multiplier in the field”.

HGK-82 (Precision Guidance Kit -82)​

HGK-82 is a multi-throw guidance kit that converts existing 500 lb Mk-82 general purpose bombs to ammunition with smart and precise strike capability from air to ground with KKS / ANS guidance system.

• Multi-shot capability with the BRU 57 adapter
• Retargeting during connected flight
• Mixing resistant
• Ability to work day and night in all weather conditions
• Fewer bombs, sorties and personnel per mission
• Cost effective
• Precision hit capability with integrated ANS / KKS
• CEP value below 10m with ANS / KKS, 25m below with ANS only
• Certification to F-16 PO-III and F-4E / 2020 fighter aircraft
• MIL-STD 1760 compliance

 

[Yasar_TR]

New Deliveries of HGK-82 Guidance Kits to TAF​

New deliveries of the Precision Guidance Kit HGK-82, developed by TÜBİTAK SAGE, to the Turkish Armed Forces were made.


Deliveries of HGK-82, an important element of our air power, which was developed by TÜBİTAK SAGE and mass-produced by ASELSAN, continue. Regarding the subject, Defense Industry President Prof. Dr. In the statement made by İsmail Demir, “The delivery of our guidance kits, the important element of our air power, continues. We made new deliveries of HGK-82 guidance kits, which give Mk-82 unguided general purpose bombs a precision strike capability with its guidance capability. statements took place.

Mark series general purpose bombs, which gained guidance feature thanks to their precision Guidance Kits, are used by the Turkish Air Force's F-16 and F-4E type warplanes.

Integration of HGK and KGK to ANKA + and AKSUNGUR had started​

Integration of the Precision Guidance Kit (HGK) and Winged Guidance Kit (KGK) developed by TÜBİTAK SAGE to the twin-engine AKSUNGUR and single-engine ANKA + UAVs developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) had begun. TÜBİTAK SAGE Institute Director Gürcan Okumuş shared the development on his Twitter account.

Emphasizing that our domestic ammunition is integrated into our domestic UAVs with our own software and algorithms, Okumuş said, “This capability will be a very important power multiplier in the field”.

HGK-82 (Precision Guidance Kit -82)​

HGK-82 is a multi-throw guidance kit that converts existing 500 lb Mk-82 general purpose bombs to ammunition with smart and precise strike capability from air to ground with KKS / ANS guidance system.

• Multi-shot capability with the BRU 57 adapter
• Retargeting during connected flight
• Mixing resistant
• Ability to work day and night in all weather conditions
• Fewer bombs, sorties and personnel per mission
• Cost effective
• Precision hit capability with integrated ANS / KKS
• CEP value below 10m with ANS / KKS, 25m below with ANS only
• Certification to F-16 PO-III and F-4E / 2020 fighter aircraft
• MIL-STD 1760 compliance

This is good news. I think both HGK and KGK are fantastic weapons. They transform a dumb bomb in to a smart ammunition with a fraction of the cost. HGK has a 15 km range when dropped at 30K feet. This means aircraft dropping it is already within reach of enemy’s mid range AD systems. I would prefer the KGK, as it is truly a stand-off ammunition. It has a range of 110-120 km if dropped at high altitude and speed.

 

[Yasar_TR]

The future of battlefield dominance will be governed by the speed, quality and quantity of your missile arsenal.
Russians are on the right track here. They know they can not compete with US’s carrier fleet and air dominance over the battlefield. So they are focusing on hypersonic missiles like Kinzhal and Zircon.
Of these especially zircon is revolutionary. It is after initial launch solid fuel stage, scramjet powered. Has a range of 1000km and has flown at speeds in excess of 8mach to reach it’s target. Most importantly it is supposed to create a plasma cloud as it is flying through dense air which stops radar signals penetrating it. Hence making it impervious to enemy defences.
This is the type of technology we should be working on. This is the future! US has no defences against it.

3M22 Zircon – Missile Defense Advocacy Alliance

missiledefenseadvocacy.org

Why Russia's Hypersonic Missiles Can't Be Seen on Radar

The speed of hypersonic weapons are changing the way the world's military minds think about the future of great power conflicts in ways no one could have predicted.

www.military.com

 

[Turko]

Do we have modular missile system such as Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) also AKA FLAADS?
There are a lot of lessons to take from FLAADS as The Brits don't spend money on weather. They are known for being greedy on new defense projects.


Using one missile for A2A and Surface to Air is economic on the other hand CAMM missiles are quite compact so you can fit them in limited space such as naval vessels for point defence.
However CAMM gives more than point defence since it can reach 25km range.

We could exploit such compact SAMs on warships ( of course YTKBs) , strategic ground objects and subsequently on fighters.

Common Anti Air Missile (CAMM) - Think Defence

The Common Anti-Air Modular Missile (CAMM) will replace Seawolf and Rapier FSC in the Royal Navy and British Army and is described by MBDA as;

www.thinkdefence.co.uk

The current development shows the FLAADS(L) system mounted on a demountable pallet on a MAN HX truck. Decisions on a lighter transport platform or perhaps a smaller missile load (currently 12) remain to be made.

MBDA’s advanced air defence system for the British Army enters assessment phase | Press Release | MBDA

MBDA's FLAADS Land system will provide the British Army with one of the most advanced and capable advanced air defence system in its class.

www.mbda-systems.com

 

[Yasar_TR]

Do we have modular missile system such as Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) also AKA FLAADS?
There are a lot of lessons to take from FLAADS as The Brits don't spend money on weather. They are known for being greedy on new defense projects.


Using one missile for A2A and Surface to Air is economic on the other hand CAMM missiles are quite compact so you can fit them in limited space such as naval vessels for point defence.
However CAMM gives more than point defence since it can reach 25km range.

We could exploit such compact SAMs on warships ( of course YTKBs) , strategic ground objects and subsequently on fighters.

Common Anti Air Missile (CAMM) - Think Defence

The Common Anti-Air Modular Missile (CAMM) will replace Seawolf and Rapier FSC in the Royal Navy and British Army and is described by MBDA as;

www.thinkdefence.co.uk

View attachment 13117
View attachment 13123

View attachment 13119
View attachment 13118
The current development shows the FLAADS(L) system mounted on a demountable pallet on a MAN HX truck. Decisions on a lighter transport platform or perhaps a smaller missile load (currently 12) remain to be made.

View attachment 13120
View attachment 13121

MBDA’s advanced air defence system for the British Army enters assessment phase | Press Release | MBDA

MBDA's FLAADS Land system will provide the British Army with one of the most advanced and capable advanced air defence system in its class.

www.mbda-systems.com

As far as I can see it, this is UK’s shot at their own ESSM type airdefence system. UK is not a member of the ESSM consortium. Currently they are using aster 15 missiles on their frigates and destroyers. Aster is owned 66% by France and 33% by Italy.
We are currently developing a range of surface to air and surface to surface defence system for our ships and land assets in the form of G40 and it’s derivatives.

 

[Turko]

As far as I can see it, this is UK’s shot at their own ESSM type airdefence system. UK is not a member of the ESSM consortium. Currently they are using aster 15 missiles on their frigates and destroyers. Aster is owned 66% by France and 33% by Italy.
We are currently developing a range of surface to air and surface to surface defence system for our ships and land assets in the form of G40 and it’s derivatives.

CAMM spots out ESSM because it weighs 100kg , diameter 16cm and length 3 m while ESSM 280kg, diameter 25cm, length 3.6 m.

CAMM gives more point defense opportunity with compact dimensions.
Quad pack three cells consist 12 missiles.
However it can engage up to 25km with active radar seeker.
.

Nonetheless, RN type 26 will have additional mk41 VLS equipped with ESSMs apart from sea Ceptor VLS.

I'd would say the Brits created own RAM but more capable( 360degree cover) like C-Dome.

 

[Yasar_TR]

CAMM spots out ESSM because it weighs 100kg , diameter 16cm and length 3 m while ESSM 280kg, diameter 25cm, length 3.6 m.

CAMM gives more point defense opportunity with compact dimensions.
Quad pack three cells consist 12 missiles.
However it can engage up to 25km with active radar seeker.
.

Nonetheless, RN type 26 will have additional mk41 VLS equipped with ESSMs apart from sea Ceptor VLS.

I'd would say the Brits created own RAM but more capable( 360degree cover) like C-Dome.

As it is lighter, smaller and cheaper, it is advantageous. Like you say it is a much improved RAM replacement. There is an ER version which is heavier, longer and has 45 km range. A bit smaller than ESSM . That is why I saw a resemblance.

CAMM-ER | FORCE PROTECTION, Ground Based Air Defence | MBDA

CAMM-ER, the Common Anti-air Modular Missile Extended Range, is from the CAMM family of next generation air defence missiles, designed for land, sea and air environments.

www.mbda-systems.com