TR Figes is developing indigenous Thorium reactors

Cabatli_TR

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For details in Turkish:

 

Saithan

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Back around 2010-2014 I was very interested in reading up on nuclear power and read up on several different types. Mostly S/M types but progress on thorium reactors were quite low. I believe the issue with Daiichi also had a part in my research.

Turkey has quite a large thorium reserve as I recall it, so this could be good, but only if we can harness power from it even if it is S/M size we should go for it.
 
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Back around 2010-2014 I was very interested in reading up on nuclear power and read up on several different types. Mostly S/M types but progress on thorium reactors were quite low. I believe the issue with Daiichi also had a part in my research.

Turkey has quite a large thorium reserve as I recall it, so this could be good, but only if we can harness power from it even if it is S/M size we should go for it.
This is far more important than having an AirCraft Carrier, Channel Istanbul or going to moon.

Having multiple Thorium reactors + with the rise of Electrical Cars... Turkey can drastically reduce it's energy dependence.
 

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@Nilgiri what is the current status on the development of the Indian Thorium reactors - last I remember there were significant progress made but news just faded. Is thorium reactors as viable as we believe it to be ?

IAEA Estimates in tons (2005) Thorium Reserves
Country​
RAR ThEAR Th
India​
519,00021%
Australia​
489,00019%
US​
400,00013%
Turkey​
344,00011%
Venezuela​
302,00010%
Brazil​
302,00010%


How does the Thorium reactor compare in comparison Supercritical Co2 power cycle ?
 
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CAN_TR

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Since my first days on PDF i always said Turkey better should dump Akkuyu and other Nuclear PP plans and invest in Molten Salt/Thorium reactors.
It makes no sense that a country with one of the biggest Thorium reserves in the world goes for PWR, especially not when Russian company is the major shareholder of it.

Turkey, which has the perfect condition for every kind of renewable energy sources, hydropower, solarpower, windpower and huge Thorium reserves goes for standard PWR PP's being dependent again on foreigners instead building up own energy industry and becoming a global leader in this sectors.
 
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Saithan

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Since my first days on PDF i always said Turkey better should dump Akkuyu and other Nuclear PP plans and invest in Molten Salt/Thorium reactors.
It makes no sense that a country with one of the biggest Thorium reserves in the world goes for PWR, especially not when Russian company is the major shareholder of it.

Turkey, which has the perfect condition for every kind of renewable energy sources, hydropower, solarpower, windpower and huge Thorium reserves goes for standard PWR PP's being dependent again on foreigners instead building up own energy industry and becoming a global leader in this sectors.
Regardless of our choice we still need experience of running powerplants of this caliber. We got a small nuclear pp for research purpoee, but that can’t be compared to the manpower and knowledge of running it solidly.

Like with so much else ee need to develop capability, experience and knowledge to build and run these pp.

Daiichi occured because of complacancy and corruption. The japanese knows their stuff, ee don’t not even techwise on same level.
 

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@Nilgiri what is the current status on the development of the Indian Thorium reactors - last I remember there were significant progress made but news just faded. Is thorium reactors as viable as we believe it to be ?

IAEA Estimates in tons (2005) Thorium Reserves
Country​
RAR ThEAR Th
India​
519,00021%
Australia​
489,00019%
US​
400,00013%
Turkey​
344,00011%
Venezuela​
302,00010%
Brazil​
302,00010%


How does the Thorium reactor compare in comparison Supercritical Co2 power cycle ?

Important thing to have in mind is that everything about nuclear reactors (and bombs) ultimately boils down to neutron economy intensity vis-a-vis management.

i.e the production, surplus, deficit and transfer (flux) of neutrons available to materials that are unstable/sensitive to such neutrons w.r.t underlying nuclear forces (generally very large atoms in case of fission).

The main "type" (i.e isotope) of Thorium (Th-232) is fertile (able to absorb a neutron) but not fissile (able to split on impact absorption of neutron) as of itself directly.

i.e it (Thorium) needs an environment of neutron flux/capture so that it can turn into Uranium-233 (which is fissile).

The short lived intermediaries of this process (Th-233 and Pa-233) also produce some energy by beta decay to the final U-233.

The fissile U-233 is what produces the bulk of the energy in its relevant reactor as it physically splits (fissions) at a certain % likelihood when a neutron hits it and is absorbed...producing a huge amount of kinetic energy (previously stored in the nucleus bond forces) by the fissile products which is converted into heat by friction-transfer with rest of the fuel.

Thus you need something to provide the neutrons initially (say U-235 or Plutonium) so that the thorium itself needs to be "bred" into U-233 by introducing it in the vicinity of this flux.

Either by molten salt reactor as you and others mention here (that combines some proportion of fissile uranium salt with the fertile thorium salt) or a more conventional blanket or similar strategy of fertile solid thorium.

The U-233 fission science also needs to be studied and well understood to be harnessed optimally (given far more body of research done w.r.t U-235+neutron and U-238+ neutron i.e plutonium).

So very much just like farm economics, you need to understand the seeding, flux (sunlight in farm case), soil and input management and final harvesting strategy so you can use the land long term productively.

======================================================

BTW: Burn just means "use" (to make electricity) and breed just means "create" (more fuel from earlier fuel input).

In Indian case there is 3 -step program that is currently seeing major progress in step 2 (step 3 is in relative infancy), step 1 is well established and proven (just needs funds for scaling when all steps are ready):


The PFBR earlier in that thread is the key part of step 2 to produce the U-233 from thorium in India's case. It will likely produce major results this decade (it i supposed to be fully operational at end of this year).

W.r.t step 3, India is researching "AHWR" which is an "all-in one" reactor that will take fissile material along with thorium and breeds u-233 which it also burns in same reactor....in addition to being a U-233 burner (from step 2) solely when needed.

It is undergoing research. It is something like solid equivalent of molten salt reactor....and will be a world first if implemented and proven successful.

It will be large part of step 3 (since it can burn U-233 unlike step 2 PFBR which only breeds it)...unless India makes a dedicated U-233 burner design for it instead. We have to see.

Making such reactors (able to breed and/or burn U-233) is of interest to countries with far more thorium compared to uranium as that would be an underlying economic and autarkic strength (w.r.t changing geopolitical currents etc)

But several other economics in play stymy/slow development and implementation of thorium cycle and nuclear power more generally (and India with developing economy and major fiscal resource pressures/competition/opportunity costs is especially affected by them):

- High capital intensive program (especially for new cycles like Thorium that are unproven at the large scale) and govt budgeting pressure (especially if economy has slowed etc), red tape and private sector scarcity issues for such fields

- Arrival of huge competition price-wise from renewable energy and higher energy efficiency for fossil fuels (you mentioned super critical coal for example) that do not have such long capital+research gestation costs and sinks

- Other costs and fears (land acquisition, water use, fukushima disaster in such a country like Japan with its safety reputation), especially in minds of the laypeople/electorate

Therein lies answer to supercritical coal/fossilfuel (relatively lower capital costs + proven + ready)

vs thorium (opposite of these 3 things but no CO2 involved and gives low import need for base power load of grid after it is proven+ready)

vs say regular (proven) nuclear which is in between these two.

These all have to be balanced and thus have taken toll on nuclear power development worldwide, and especially newer tech chains for it (i.e what is the risk to reward analysis).

But as this article puts it at the end, it must all be balanced and hedged with long term need and capability given the costs of import reliance:

Given, however, rising energy demand in the country, and India’s huge dependency on import of not just oil and gas, but also critical raw materials like lithium, cobalt, and nickel used for the production of solar panels and other renewable technologies, indigenously developed nuclear power plants that are fueled by domestically available thorium reserves remain an important pillar of India’s energy independence. This would, however, require the Indian government to push forth with its nuclear power program by investing in cost-effective technologies, cutting down red tape in processing approvals, streamlining land reforms, and creating special purpose vehicles for the development of nuclear power plants. A competitive domestic nuclear energy sector is key to India’s energy security. It must be developed keeping in mind India’s limited options when it comes to other forms of energy resources and technologies.

 

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Hesham

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For details in Turkish:

To prepare for the design and to get international license you need to build some experimental work and a prototype.
- Specifiy your outout power and design your power conversion cycle at the begining, chosing your working fluid among suitable ones, get your working temperature at each node of the conversion cycle as well as the pressure.
- From this you can determine the output thermal power from the reactor core, to establish your core size and enrichment
- Slect a suitable heat exchanger either helical or shell tube and if you will use intermediate cylce or direct cylce.
- Select your salt and get your critical geometry
All the above should be from the basic knowledge without using analysis codes.
Make your first roughly determined reactor then move to safety anylsis to prepare for the components connections, valves pumps and extra, determine your core damage frequency
- Then back to fine anlysis of the above
Wish you all the best and succession
If you need any help about Molten Salt please contact
 

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I do not recommend Indian case for Turkey because indian are using heavy water in their reactors. Instead Turkey should move to Molten Salt.
 

Hesham

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Important thing to have in mind is that everything about nuclear reactors (and bombs) ultimately boils down to neutron economy intensity vis-a-vis management.

i.e the production, surplus, deficit and transfer (flux) of neutrons available to materials that are unstable/sensitive to such neutrons w.r.t underlying nuclear forces (generally very large atoms in case of fission).

The main "type" (i.e isotope) of Thorium (Th-232) is fertile (able to absorb a neutron) but not fissile (able to split on impact absorption of neutron) as of itself directly.

i.e it (Thorium) needs an environment of neutron flux/capture so that it can turn into Uranium-233 (which is fissile).

The short lived intermediaries of this process (Th-233 and Pa-233) also produce some energy by beta decay to the final U-233.

The fissile U-233 is what produces the bulk of the energy in its relevant reactor as it physically splits (fissions) at a certain % likelihood when a neutron hits it and is absorbed...producing a huge amount of kinetic energy (previously stored in the nucleus bond forces) by the fissile products which is converted into heat by friction-transfer with rest of the fuel.

Thus you need something to provide the neutrons initially (say U-235 or Plutonium) so that the thorium itself needs to be "bred" into U-233 by introducing it in the vicinity of this flux.

Either by molten salt reactor as you and others mention here (that combines some proportion of fissile uranium salt with the fertile thorium salt) or a more conventional blanket or similar strategy of fertile solid thorium.

The U-233 fission science also needs to be studied and well understood to be harnessed optimally (given far more body of research done w.r.t U-235+neutron and U-238+ neutron i.e plutonium).

So very much just like farm economics, you need to understand the seeding, flux (sunlight in farm case), soil and input management and final harvesting strategy so you can use the land long term productively.

======================================================

BTW: Burn just means "use" (to make electricity) and breed just means "create" (more fuel from earlier fuel input).

In Indian case there is 3 -step program that is currently seeing major progress in step 2 (step 3 is in relative infancy), step 1 is well established and proven (just needs funds for scaling when all steps are ready):


The PFBR earlier in that thread is the key part of step 2 to produce the U-233 from thorium in India's case. It will likely produce major results this decade (it i supposed to be fully operational at end of this year).

W.r.t step 3, India is researching "AHWR" which is an "all-in one" reactor that will take fissile material along with thorium and breeds u-233 which it also burns in same reactor....in addition to being a U-233 burner (from step 2) solely when needed.

It is undergoing research. It is something like solid equivalent of molten salt reactor....and will be a world first if implemented and proven successful.

It will be large part of step 3 (since it can burn U-233 unlike step 2 PFBR which only breeds it)...unless India makes a dedicated U-233 burner design for it instead. We have to see.

Making such reactors (able to breed and/or burn U-233) is of interest to countries with far more thorium compared to uranium as that would be an underlying economic and autarkic strength (w.r.t changing geopolitical currents etc)

But several other economics in play stymy/slow development and implementation of thorium cycle and nuclear power more generally (and India with developing economy and major fiscal resource pressures/competition/opportunity costs is especially affected by them):

- High capital intensive program (especially for new cycles like Thorium that are unproven at the large scale) and govt budgeting pressure (especially if economy has slowed etc), red tape and private sector scarcity issues for such fields

- Arrival of huge competition price-wise from renewable energy and higher energy efficiency for fossil fuels (you mentioned super critical coal for example) that do not have such long capital+research gestation costs and sinks

- Other costs and fears (land acquisition, water use, fukushima disaster in such a country like Japan with its safety reputation), especially in minds of the laypeople/electorate

Therein lies answer to supercritical coal/fossilfuel (relatively lower capital costs + proven + ready)

vs thorium (opposite of these 3 things but no CO2 involved and gives low import need for base power load of grid after it is proven+ready)

vs say regular (proven) nuclear which is in between these two.

These all have to be balanced and thus have taken toll on nuclear power development worldwide, and especially newer tech chains for it (i.e what is the risk to reward analysis).

But as this article puts it at the end, it must all be balanced and hedged with long term need and capability given the costs of import reliance:

Given, however, rising energy demand in the country, and India’s huge dependency on import of not just oil and gas, but also critical raw materials like lithium, cobalt, and nickel used for the production of solar panels and other renewable technologies, indigenously developed nuclear power plants that are fueled by domestically available thorium reserves remain an important pillar of India’s energy independence. This would, however, require the Indian government to push forth with its nuclear power program by investing in cost-effective technologies, cutting down red tape in processing approvals, streamlining land reforms, and creating special purpose vehicles for the development of nuclear power plants. A competitive domestic nuclear energy sector is key to India’s energy security. It must be developed keeping in mind India’s limited options when it comes to other forms of energy resources and technologies.

Inida is using heavy water so there is no comparison with your direction in turkey
 

Nilgiri

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Inida is using heavy water so there is no comparison with your direction in turkey

Was just explaining neutron economy. That applies to any cycle in the end.

Molten salt gives you thorium use right away without too many intermediate steps....so it is attractive that way.

It however requires a lot of research to do as well.
 

TheInsider

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This is a big step. The project secured state support and will enjoy similar privileges to defense projects. I think first prototype might appear in five years and a commercial reactor derived from that prototype can be used to power small towns and ships. Once started those reactors won't need refueling for 20+ years. I expect the first big reactor to come online after 2030. 4th gen nuclear reactors have a lot of advantages. Forget exotic fusion tech it is so far away. Thorium molten salt reactors will change society. It is an insanely important project. Forget everything if we can successfully develop this energy problem will end forever. Thorium is so abundant in Türkiye we can be a big player.
 

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This is a big step. The project secured state support and will enjoy similar privileges to defense projects. I think first prototype might appear in five years and a commercial reactor derived from that prototype can be used to power small towns and ships. Once started those reactors won't need refueling for 20+ years. I expect the first big reactor to come online after 2030. 4th gen nuclear reactors have a lot of advantages. Forget exotic fusion tech it is so far away. Thorium molten salt reactors will change society. It is an insanely important project. Forget everything if we can successfully develop this energy problem will end forever. Thorium is so abundant in Türkiye we can be a big player.

India and Turkey should unite on this front.
 

byzero

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Thoratom, a subsidiary of Figes, has made great progress in the molten salt reactor. A prototype will be ready by 2030. The project involves TUBITAK, MAM, TENMAK and some universities. It will produce only 1 kWh of electricity for 2 cents and a reactor the size of a generator can meet the electricity and heat needs of an entire building. It is an important project that will change Turkey's unfortunate fate, especially with electric cars.
 

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