India Quad Archive

kaykay

Active member
Messages
80
Reactions
139
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India

The Navy, Army, and IAF's decision comes just days before US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin's visit to India later this month.​

SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP8 March, 2021 8:00 am IST

New Delhi: Impressed with the performance of the two leased Sea Guardian drones, the Navy, Army and the Air Force will finally jointly procure 30 armed versions of the American unmanned aerial system in what could be a $3 billion deal, ThePrint has learnt.

The decision comes just before US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin’s visit to India later this month. Austin’s visit could be a precursor to the impending meet of the ‘Quad’ leaders — US, India, Australia and Japan — which is likely to be held soon.

According to sources in the defence and security establishment, initially one of the three services were not on board about procuring the armed predator drones but now all three are finally on the same page.

They added that the Defence Minister Rajnath Singh-led Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) could take a final decision on this “soon”.

If approved, this would be the first tri-service procurement since Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat was appointed to steer the Indian armed forces into a more united force, both in terms of operational doctrine and procurement.

The erstwhile Trump administration had expected the deal for 30 armed drones to be announced at the two-plus-two ministerial dialogue in New Delhi on 27 October 2020. However, India did not succumb to the hard American push to seal the deal then.

India to procure armed version of Sea Guardian drones

In 2018, the US had offered India the armed version of the Guardian drones, which were originally authorised for sale as unarmed and for surveillance purposed.


India was earlier eyeing both the unarmed Sea Guardian drones for the Navy and the armed Predator B for attack options, but there was a growing feeling that both surveillance and attack could be done by the same drone.

This was because of the prohibitive price involving American drones. The Navy had initially planned for 22 Sea Guardians which were priced at over $2 billion, but then brought down the number to just 12.

However, since all the three services wanted weaponised drones, a decision was taken to jointly pursue the deal.

According to the deal, India will be acquiring 30 MQ-9 Reaper or Predator B, 10 each for the three services.


The MQ-9B has an endurance of 48 hours and a range of over 6,000 nautical miles. It comes with nine hard-points, capable of carrying sensors and laser-guided bombs besides air-to-ground missiles, with a maximum payload of two tonnes.

The Navy, which is the lead agency for procurement of HALE (High Altitude Long Endurance) UAVs, will seek the Acceptance of Necessity (AON) from the DAC.

In November last year, ThePrint had reported that the Navy had inducted two Sea Guardian drones on lease under emergency procurement.

According to sources, the Navy is really impressed with the two UAVs it took on lease from the US firm General Atomics.

Other contracts

This development comes as India pursues ‘Project Cheetah’, under which a Rs 5,500 crore contract is being taken up to upgrade the ‘Heron’ medium-altitude long-endurance drone fleet with all three services into an armed one.

The Navy is also pursuing another contract for 10 Naval Shipborne Unmanned Aerial System, for which American firm Boeing is the front runner.

It is also looking at leasing minesweeper vessels and helicopters, as reported in December last year.

In an earlier interview to ThePrint, Rémi Maillard, president of Airbus India and the company’s managing director for South Asia, had said that they are in talks with the Navy to lease out Panther helicopters for its warships, as the force looks at bridging the capability gap it faces when it comes to the rotary wing.

 

kaykay

Active member
Messages
80
Reactions
139
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
It seems they'll go for 10 each for every wing. Also I would like to know more about missiles which are to be deployed on 100 heron drones...as their payload capacity is mere 300-400 kgs
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,738
Reactions
118 19,732
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
It seems they'll go for 10 each for every wing. Also I would like to know more about missiles which are to be deployed on 100 heron drones...as their payload capacity is mere 300-400 kgs

MQ-1B MTOW is about 1000 kg on similar sized platform.

It has 2 hardpoints (can carry 2x hellfire).

I suppose India+Israel can look to do similar on the heron platforms India has in ISTAR only...i.e retrofit a couple hardpoints (maybe even 3 or 4), have them carry nag/helina or hellfire etc...which are about 50kg each.

That's very much how MQ-1 did it too.

To add some extra teeth to the platforms, more datalink capacity can also be looked at...and maybe an AI algorithm handling too...so the drones can network with each other more seamlessly and a few optimised+dedicated variants can evolve...i.e have sensor-specific variant datalinked with weapon-specific variant etc in buddy role...rather than have 50/50 spread on one.

These herons will ofc have lower range and endurance when carrying munitions. This option has to be looked at now (with its compromise) given delay in DRDO Rustom 2 program.

Maybe @500 has some extra info/thoughts to share.

@Sinan @ukroturk @Gautam @Zapper et al.

@UkroTurk 🚬
 

Zapper

Experienced member
India Correspondent
Messages
1,716
Reactions
10 936
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
India
It seems they'll go for 10 each for every wing. Also I would like to know more about missiles which are to be deployed on 100 heron drones...as their payload capacity is mere 300-400 kgs
$3bn for 30 drones which is $100mn a pop. No matter whatever training, support, maintenance, spares and weapons package they provide along with...it just doesn't make sense to pay freaking $100mn for a drone. Should've pumped that money into Rustom UAV, Ghatak Stealth UCAV and maybe CATS Warrior programs instead of filling Yankee pockets. I'm sure the top brass sitting at the helm of procurement must've gotten the finest kickbacks with the best looking women American defense firms had on offer for our generals, marshals and admirals
 

Paro

Well-known member
Messages
368
Reactions
538
Nation of residence
India
Buy a few ripe them open reverse engineer it.

100 million lol wtf. You could get another sqd of Rafale and lifetime customer care support of a Desi-speaking Frenchie lol.

There is something else in that contract for sure.
 

xizhimen

Experienced member
Messages
7,391
Reactions
384
Nation of residence
China
Nation of origin
China
Have to say India is so rich, that's indeed a lot of money to spend.
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,738
Reactions
118 19,732
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
Buy a few ripe them open reverse engineer it.

100 million lol wtf. You could get another sqd of Rafale and lifetime customer care support of a Desi-speaking Frenchie lol.

There is something else in that contract for sure.

Probably (officially) the weapons package + ground station architecture + life support costs etc.

Let us see what is included.

Like you say, US probably charges top dollar knowing India's interest, capability and that it will have a deep poke inside and not be a long term (non-NATO) return buyer here.....but US also wants the strategic partnership to also gather more base too....so this order kind of middle-ground stuff for both sides. There is parallels with WLR (absorbed into BEL), phalcon (absorbed into netra), green pine (absorbed into BEL again) etc etc, genesis of these were back in early days just after pokhran coldness started to wear off. US MIC paid close attention and game this all in now.

Lot of time it is also opening more doors in specific parts of US MIC network....essentially baksheesh for all-clear window for more low key sustained cooperation with Israel in the sector etc.
 

Zapper

Experienced member
India Correspondent
Messages
1,716
Reactions
10 936
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
India
Probably (officially) the weapons package + ground station architecture + life support costs etc.

Let us see what is included.

Like you say, US probably charges top dollar knowing India's interest, capability and that it will have a deep poke inside and not be a long term (non-NATO) return buyer here.....but US also wants the strategic partnership to also gather more base too....so this order kind of middle-ground stuff for both sides. There is parallels with WLR (absorbed into BEL), phalcon (absorbed into netra), green pine (absorbed into BEL again) etc etc, genesis of these were back in early days just after pokhran coldness started to wear off. US MIC paid close attention and game this all in now.

Lot of time it is also opening more doors in specific parts of US MIC network....essentially baksheesh for all-clear window for more low key sustained cooperation with Israel in the sector etc.
No matter what support n weapons packages they offer, a drone which costs $15-20mn can't be justified with a price hike of over 5 times. Our dumbos are being ripped off by the US but hey it's foreign maal at the end of the day and that'll make us win wars per our slave mindsets
 

kaykay

Active member
Messages
80
Reactions
139
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
$3bn for 30 drones which is $100mn a pop. No matter whatever training, support, maintenance, spares and weapons package they provide along with...it just doesn't make sense to pay freaking $100mn for a drone. Should've pumped that money into Rustom UAV, Ghatak Stealth UCAV and maybe CATS Warrior programs instead of filling Yankee pockets. I'm sure the top brass sitting at the helm of procurement must've gotten the finest kickbacks with the best looking women American defense firms had on offer for our generals, marshals and admirals
Thats the price for a MQ-9 drone elsewhere as well. Countries have bought that in even more expensive deals. Considering their capabilities ( 48 hours endurance, 2 tons payload, 9 hardpoints, stealthy design), Its worth it.
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,738
Reactions
118 19,732
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
No matter what support n weapons packages they offer, a drone which costs $15-20mn can't be justified with a price hike of over 5 times. Our dumbos are being ripped off by the US but hey it's foreign maal at the end of the day and that'll make us win wars per our slave mindsets

Latest reapers are more like 30 - 40 million each (for internal US military), and thats barebones iirc (no weapons)...and excl. infra + training cost thats already sunk in much earlier.

For foreign sales, here is Taiwan getting 4 for 600 million bucks recently:


They have inflated costs due to some of the internal C4I + sensor tech that they have put in the last few years.

It is India's issue that it didn't make much more hay (acquire + learn + build) in the 2000 decade when things were far cheaper. But our economy was lot poorer too. We are just starting to hit comparative sweetspot this decade.

A couple expensive drone buys isn't worst thing in the world, if the production of scale is sorted out later to implement the relevant technology in these.

Now why India didnt do a CoTS drone program with Israel like 5 years earlier (using their innards etc) is another question....given we seem to be willing and ready to retrofit the herons now.

DRDO babudom, its like a weighted coin flip.
 

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,837
Reactions
6 18,670
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey
American drones are top quality but expensive and strings attached with it.

India is better off with domestic along with making them cheaper and effective.

India should also looking into swarming drones and kamikaze drones.
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,738
Reactions
118 19,732
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
American drones are top quality but expensive and strings attached with it.

India is better off with domestic along with making them cheaper and effective.

India should also looking into swarming drones and kamikaze drones.

Its being looked into:


Past the bureaucracy, problem with India is eggs split into many baskets etc, rather than target/prioritise (by taking educated guess etc) a few key programs and sections within these programs....to get the vertical breakout.

This then gets its own inertia feed back loop which further augments the issue downstream....and then expensive fixes and hacks etc need to be found or the whole thing just abandoned effectively.

This psychology is inherited from the socialist era in cold war, where same thing happened in economy too....i.e absolutely everything had to be done in an "equal" way rather than build up things we have advantage on quickly.

Its good for keeping people employed relatively speaking, not so great for results.

Thankfully given India's sheer size, there was enough breakouts anyway and there is now pressure on laggards to perform w.r.t implementing models the success stories used.
 

Zapper

Experienced member
India Correspondent
Messages
1,716
Reactions
10 936
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
India
Latest reapers are more like 30 - 40 million each (for internal US military), and thats barebones iirc (no weapons)...and excl. infra + training cost thats already sunk in much earlier.

For foreign sales, here is Taiwan getting 4 for 600 million bucks recently:


They have inflated costs due to some of the internal C4I + sensor tech that they have put in the last few years.

It is India's issue that it didn't make much more hay (acquire + learn + build) in the 2000 decade when things were far cheaper. But our economy was lot poorer too. We are just starting to hit comparative sweetspot this decade.

A couple expensive drone buys isn't worst thing in the world, if the production of scale is sorted out later to implement the relevant technology in these.

Now why India didnt do a CoTS drone program with Israel like 5 years earlier (using their innards etc) is another question....given we seem to be willing and ready to retrofit the herons now.

DRDO babudom, its like a weighted coin flip.
We don't have an immediate threat where the armed forces could put these to use...even in the long run if some conflict arises, 30 drones ain't gonna make a difference given China can counter em with numbers with a 10:1 ratio. $3bn could get you another squadron of Rafales which is what exactly we need until MFW/TEDBF take shape. Now that our domestic arms industry is finally taking off, it's always better to pump such money into our indigenous programs
 

Zapper

Experienced member
India Correspondent
Messages
1,716
Reactions
10 936
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
India
Buy a few ripe them open reverse engineer it.
Yankees always keep a tab on their tech. The JF-17 was originally planned to be an F-16 rip off but weren't completely successful and ended up with a cheap chinese knockoff
 

Nilgiri

Experienced member
Moderator
Aviation Specialist
Messages
9,738
Reactions
118 19,732
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
We don't have an immediate threat where the armed forces could put these to use...even in the long run if some conflict arises, 30 drones ain't gonna make a difference given China can counter em with numbers with a 10:1 ratio. $3bn could get you another squadron of Rafales which is what exactly we need until MFW/TEDBF take shape. Now that our domestic arms industry is finally taking off, it's always better to pump such money into our indigenous programs

Yes getting 1 -2 phalcons also would have made zero difference at the time...given what was forked out for them.

The whole point was NETRA downstream...by what LRDE could learn, develop with help from having phalcon on hand.

Same thing with Green pine (arm and a leg expense for what we are getting) and swordfish, heck US stopped acquiring of the arrow interceptor to go with it....so we needed to go further from scratch with the prithvi system for BMD starting out.

They know ever since the IGMDP (and even before it), what India is capable of converting and employing if it attaches suitable priority to it.

They will charge top dollar or maybe quad-alliance member price at best.... knowing some things are likely to be one-offs. It really is that simple.

We do not have a plethora of massive+ organised human resource in this echelon and tier, some priorities have to be made while things agglomerate into RnD channels better.

It is not about simply pumping in more money internally.

Not everything is an import-maal get rich scheme.

That only becomes clearer downstream anyway.
 

Test7

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,785
Reactions
19 19,937
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Turkey
$3bn for 30 drones which is $100mn a pop. No matter whatever training, support, maintenance, spares and weapons package they provide along with...it just doesn't make sense to pay freaking $100mn for a drone.

i agree with you. frankly, I was very surprised when I saw this news.
 

Paro

Well-known member
Messages
368
Reactions
538
Nation of residence
India
I dont see what additional use these UAVs add to that the military had to spend 3 billion. India already has around 200 UAVs with more than a 100 armed herons if im not wrong , maybe with not the same pay load capacity.

Not that these can survive inside either the Pakistan or Chinese airspace.

Global hawks make more sense they can be an additional leg to p8is in the IOR.

My guess is India is getting few drones but along with it some kind of communication equipment especially after signing the 3 foundational agreements last year. If you remember correctly NASAM3 price wasn’t really disclosed it only said 1 billion no info on how many missiles or launchers.
 
Last edited:

crixus

Contributor
Messages
1,021
Reactions
1,160
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
India
I dont see what additional use these UAVs add to that the military had to spend 3 billion. India already has around 200 UAVs with more than a 100 armed herons if im not wrong , maybe with not the same pay load capacity.

Not that these can survive inside either the Pakistan or Chinese airspace.

Global hawks make more sense they can be an additional leg to p8is in the IOR.

My guess is India is getting few drones but along with it some kind of communication equipment especially after signing the 3 foundational agreements last year. If you remember correctly NASAM3 price wasn’t really disclosed it only said 1 billion no info on how many missiles or launchers.
Maybe it includes the cost of some other service or goods which both governments don't want to disclose, during Laddak, US has provided real-time intelligence and intelligence is a costly affair.
@Nilgiri what you think F-18s will also get pushed to Navy
 
Last edited:

Zapper

Experienced member
India Correspondent
Messages
1,716
Reactions
10 936
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
India
I dont see what additional use these UAVs add to that the military had to spend 3 billion. India already has around 200 UAVs with more than a 100 armed herons if im not wrong , maybe with not the same pay load capacity.

Not that these can survive inside either the Pakistan or Chinese airspace.

Global hawks make more sense they can be an additional leg to p8is in the IOR.

My guess is India is getting few drones but along with it some kind of communication equipment especially after signing the 3 foundational agreements last year. If you remember correctly NASAM3 price wasn’t really disclosed it only said 1 billion no info on how many missiles or launchers.
Now that we're paying a premium, we should take full advantage of reverse engineering the crap outta it and implement in our Rustom & Ghatak UCAV projects
 

Zapper

Experienced member
India Correspondent
Messages
1,716
Reactions
10 936
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
India
what you think F-18s will also get pushed to Navy
The under construction INS Vikrant AC is most likely to field Mig-29s since there were reports of additional orders for the Mig in early 2020 (IN currently has 45). The idea was to replace all Mig-29s with TEDBF

IAF was quite reluctant in going with the F-16 despite offering lucrative deals since we're well aware of both pakistan and Turkey being denied spares, additional aircrafts or kicked outta the projects when they went against their interests. I expect the same with IN. There's a high possibility if Dassault comes up with folding wings on the Rafale-M since IAF might also go for a squadron or two of additional Rafales
 

Follow us on social media

Top Bottom