TR Land Vehicle Programs

Zafer

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I find it a bit ridiculous if bmc gets everything.

There needs to be a balance between the brands. Bmc might do better than others but the other brands like Otokar and FNSS can do better than BMC.

Bmc is going to become the jack of all trades thats not good as we should not be dependant on one company for our defence needs.
Other companies should put more things on the table cutting out foreign dependence. We don't need products with strings attached to them for our armed forces. Consolidation is a good thing if you watch out for pitfalls like low product quality. High domestic input with minimal supply chain risk must be prioritized. For export markets it is a different story.
 

Huelague

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How many KIRPI we want to purchase at the first stage? 670 units. How many units were purchased at least? 1300 units?

NEPOTISM at its best!
Look at the whole instruction industry! All close to Erdogan or AKP.
 

Anmdt

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Other companies should put more things on the table cutting out foreign dependence
Unfortunately these words were never used for Baykar who likes to use foreign products since the beginning.
We have consoled ourselves telling that Baykar has done that for simplicity, using commercial alternatives, and to reduce prices and being more competitive.
When it is BMC, people suddenly plays the "domestic parts" card.
Baykar was never forced by SSB to create an ecosystem with sub-contractors and providers as much as TAI was forced to, they have either developed something by themselves or bought it from abroad easily.

FNSS is also using domestic parts as much as possible, even before than the BMC, they have a reliable history, yet they are still getting a small slice, and troublesome slice, of the pie. While creme de la creme part is left for BMC. Note that FNSS is first to use domestic engines and suspensions on an armored vehicle.
If BMC was so eager to develop something they could start by being volunteered to develop Marine Assault Vehicle, oh wait why should our precious, top notch company should be busy to develop a platform for 24 orders?
If they were really interested in developing something, specialized APCs could be given to them as well so that their skills can be tested. (ÖMTTZA)

The part which consists of serial production of a common vehicle in mass amount, let's give it all to BMC so they will maximize their profits.FNSS is struggling with 3 kind of 6x6 + 1 kind of 8x8 in a single order or 100+ vehicles.
While FNSS constantly has been taking the load, developing MAV, STA platforms, Speacialized APCs (Izci), Samur, Azmim for a few orders, BMC has been so lucky they have always jumped right in the pool and whatever they have developed was sold for 200+ 500+ orders, which will also happen with IFV/APC order.

It is not about OTOKAR vs BMC, i have dropped my Otokar card since they are gone from the first due to the relationship with Erdogan, but my current argument is FNSS vs BMC, what is wrong here? What is lacking in FNSS that BMC will be favored for wheeled armored vehicles? Why can't they just focus on Altay and Trucks, with 4x4s and initially export their IFVs? If it is good, it will be definitely exported right?
 

Zafer

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GNSS-GPS, CATS, Engine.
What else should we list here? I don't know, you guys know better than me about foreign parts in Bayraktar TB2.
I am telling we should have equal basis to all companies. While BMC hasn't proven me wrong about my attitude being against them i am still in favor they are developing and being the hub for land -diesel engines and gearboxes, even through ToT or licensed production.
You are obviously unaware of the availability of these parts.
These parts have only recently been available from Turkish manufacturers and only with limited numbers and some with unsuitable specs. Please stick with facts and realities.
 

Anmdt

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You are obviously unaware of the availability of these parts.
These parts have only recently been available from Turkish manufacturers and only with limited numbers and some with unsuitable specs. Please stick with facts and realities.
Engine has been recently avaliable? ANKA has been running on PD155-170 for years
E/O has been recently avaliable? Herons has been flying with Aselflir-300 for years
GNSS-GPS has been recently avaliable? What ANKA has been flying with when TB2s were jammed in Syria?

I am still telling this, no need to be biased towards a company, i am on equal basis for all and i evaluate them based on the jobs they have achieved.
BMC hasn't achieved anything in IFV - ACVs (wheeled or tracked) while FNSS did a lot.
So by being biased, people come to a point to ignore success of FNSS?

I don't really have any other words for this.
 

Khagan1923

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Unfortunately these words were never used for Baykar who likes to use foreign products since the beginning.
We have consoled ourselves telling that Baykar has done that for simplicity, using commercial alternatives, and to reduce prices and being more competitive.
When it is BMC, people suddenly plays the "domestic parts" card.
Baykar was never forced by SSB to create an ecosystem with sub-contractors and providers as much as TAI was forced to, they have either developed something by themselves or bought it from abroad easily.

FNSS is also using domestic parts as much as possible, even before than the BMC, they have a reliable history, yet they are still getting a small slice, and troublesome slice, of the pie. While creme de la creme part is left for BMC. Note that FNSS is first to use domestic engines and suspensions on an armored vehicle.
If BMC was so eager to develop something they could start by being volunteered to develop Marine Assault Vehicle, oh wait why should our precious, top notch company should be busy to develop a platform for 24 orders?
If they were really interested in developing something, specialized APCs could be given to them as well so that their skills can be tested. (ÖMTTZA)

The part which consists of serial production of a common vehicle in mass amount, let's give it all to BMC so they will maximize their profits.FNSS is struggling with 3 kind of 6x6 + 1 kind of 8x8 in a single order or 100+ vehicles.
While FNSS constantly has been taking the load, developing MAV, STA platforms, Speacialized APCs (Izci), Samur, Azmim for a few orders, BMC has been so lucky they have always jumped right in the pool and whatever they have developed was sold for 200+ 500+ orders, which will also happen with IFV/APC order.

It is not about OTOKAR vs BMC, i have dropped my Otokar card since they are gone from the first due to the relationship with Erdogan, but my current argument is FNSS vs BMC, what is wrong here? What is lacking in FNSS that BMC will be favored for wheeled armored vehicles? Why can't they just focus on Altay and Trucks, with 4x4s and initially export their IFVs? If it is good, it will be definitely exported right?

Pars IV will be unveiled at IDEF'21. Has been undergoing testing since 2019 and FNSS already said they will enter the tender with this vehicle.

Arma has been upgraded over time. I don't see how Otokar doesn't enter it either.

If and this is a big if, the tender is handed out without any competition and testing taking place to a product that has undergone zero serious testing and isn't close to being ready for serial production (testing,input,qualifications) I don't foresee a good future for the relations between the government and FNSS. FNSS can focus on its export market and completly ignore its domestic market for years, at least until something changes. Otokar has been doing the same and flourishing doing it.

This is not a simple tender for 200 vehicles. We are talking about a tender that will run for a decade if not longer and thousands of vehicles will be bought and produced.

If BMC gets its after tests against Pars IV and Arma, fair they can have it as long as they win out against the competition fair and square. If they are handed it out, I won't be able to wait for 2023 and the questions for BMC that will come. :)


Don't forget there is most likely also a NG IFV being unveiled by FNSS next month. :)
 

Anmdt

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Pars IV will be unveiled at IDEF'21. Has been undergoing testing since 2019 and FNSS already said they will enter the tender with this vehicle.

Arma has been upgraded over time. I don't see how Otokar doesn't enter it either.

If and this is a big if, the tender is handed out without any competition and testing taking place to a product that has undergone zero serious testing and isn't close to being ready for serial production (testing,input,qualifications) I don't foresee a good future for the relations between the government and FNSS. FNSS can focus on its export market and completly ignore its domestic market for years, at least until something changes. Otokar has been doing the same and flourishing doing it.

This is not a simple tender for 200 vehicles. We are talking about a tender that will run for a decade if not longer and thousands of vehicles will be bought and produced.

If BMC gets its after tests against Pars IV and Arma, fair they can have it as long as they win out against the competition fair and square. If they are handed it out, I won't be able to wait for 2023 and the questions for BMC that will come. :)


Don't forget there is most likely also a NG IFV being unveiled by FNSS next month. :)
A single requirement in RfP can mess everything up:
- requirement of running on domestic engine and transmission,
and if BMC is not selling or letting others to test-use the completed or incomplete engine* other companies doesn't have any chance, tümosan's engine won't save FNSS for this tender since the requirement will be higher.

This tender will be fun to observe if they make it open, and let's see how some contestants will be eliminated for funny reasons. BMC has already been making PR far beyond than others. (Displaying it in acceptance of Fırtına II, leaking videos online showing the APC running on highway , this is not for nothing, don't they have a testing track?)

Another big if:
*this part is up to your imagination, is there any end when there is no accountability? A company may come up with an engine and transmission with their logo on, if not accountable, how could we know if they have developed or license produced it, or maybe rebranded?
 

Khagan1923

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A single requirement in RfP can mess everything up:
- requirement of running on domestic engine and transmission,
and if BMC is not selling or letting others to test-use the completed or incomplete engine* other companies doesn't have any chance, tümosan's engine won't save FNSS for this tender since the requirement will be higher.

This tender will be fun to observe if they make it open, and let's see how some contestants will be eliminated for funny reasons. BMC has already been making PR far beyond than others. (Displaying it in acceptance of Fırtına II, leaking videos online showing the APC running on highway , this is not for nothing, don't they have a testing track?)

Another big if:
*this part is up to your imagination, is there any end when there is no accountability? A company may come up with an engine and transmission with their logo on, if not accountable, how could we know if they have developed or license produced it, or maybe rebranded?
We will see, if these requirments are set they will come out and discussions will be had. Would be an interesting scenario where FNSS is the chosen one by the Army but BMC blocks the sale of "its" engines to be used in Pars IV for the Army. Would lead to interesting discussion all over the place.

Nevertheless winds of change are coming. We will see what happens once they arrive.
 

Kartal1

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A single requirement in RfP can mess everything up:
- requirement of running on domestic engine and transmission,
and if BMC is not selling or letting others to test-use the completed or incomplete engine* other companies doesn't have any chance, tümosan's engine won't save FNSS for this tender since the requirement will be higher.

This tender will be fun to observe if they make it open, and let's see how some contestants will be eliminated for funny reasons. BMC has already been making PR far beyond than others. (Displaying it in acceptance of Fırtına II, leaking videos online showing the APC running on highway , this is not for nothing, don't they have a testing track?)

Another big if:
*this part is up to your imagination, is there any end when there is no accountability? A company may come up with an engine and transmission with their logo on, if not accountable, how could we know if they have developed or license produced it, or maybe rebranded?
At IDEF we will see good surprise from FNSS in the name of Pars IV. No information came out as any renders or technical specs but I am sure it will be special. Probably will be using Tumosan engine as well.
 

Inspector_spacetime

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You know exactly what I mean, and yes SSB is not as independent as it once was. Murad Bayar isn't wasted just for nothing
Actualy I didn't know what you meant, that's why I asked. I didn't just want to assume based on a single sentence. Judging from this message I am forced to assume, you can correct me if you feel like I misinterpreted your message:
SSM did that, but since a few years it is SSB. Not independent but tied to the big boss, doing what big boss want to
Based on this sentence, it suggests that you assume corruption coming from Erdogan. Which is exactly the point I am trying to make in my previous message (#425). In which I stated that, because our politicians mud-slinging at each other we think a certain way. Either really positive or really negative about certain political leaders and party's. Which results in name calling and pointing the finger on others. Then it becomes a 'guilty until proven innocent' type of situation. Then you get the whole, "you are corrupt", "you are a traitor", etc. But all this is the result of propaganda coming from various channels like politicians's speeches, news papers, etc. And because very few of us actually fact check the things we read or hear, we tend to believe it. For instance, if I keep repeating that the earth is flat, eventually people will start to believe it. And there are actually people that believe the earth is flat, but that doesn't make it a fact and only results in people being mislead. It is the same idea with advertising and commercials, they induce Fear Of Missing Out (FOMO), "buy it before it gone!", "Limited edition Iphone's", etc and other emotions that incite us to spend our money. Same goes for political rhetoric: "refugee's will flood Europe", "mass corruption", "poverty is rampant", "supporting terrorism", etc.

Same goes for political mudslinging. They prey on our emotions and biases. We believe someone is a traitor or corrupt, because we want to believe, in order to preserve our current opinions and get rid of that uncomfortable feeling that we feel whenever we hear or read something that goes against our current opinion. So we, either convince ourselves that it is untrue (fake news), or we look to Google in a way that once we find a source that supports our opinion we stop researching further out of (subconscious) fear we might read something that goes against our opinions (this is called confirmation bias).

Most of our politians and reporters are not worthy of it. They prey on these emotions in order to consolidate their voter base. This in turn leads to polarization of the people, which eventually makes us weak against the outside world. It is not too much to ask our politicians and reporters to act responsibly, what they are currently doing is completely irresponsible. That is why there is such a big dichotomy and contrast between for instance sozcu and yeni safak. Both claim to be objective and factual, but neither are actually objective and factual, they both have a policy of being biased towards a political party/ideology of their choosing.

I am not saying this to point you out, but from what I read in your posts in this last few pages of this thread seems to suggests that you are also victim to political propaganda. In this day and age it is actually impossible not to fall victim, nor do I claim to be immune to this. We must count on each other to fill our blind spots. In your case your posts suggest a negative statement towards AKP/Erdogan in your case. This is not a healthy way of thinking, same goes for anti-CHP, etc sentiment also present in this forum. Different sides of the same coin. Your posts seem to at the very least suggests a distrust to AKP and seem to believe the corruption narrative. This shows that we have fallen victim to political propaganda and manipulation. It is our own responsibility to research what we read and not take what they say at face value. How I try to protect myself in such cases is to analyze the strategy. This is done by looking at recurring paterns in actions and statements made by organizations. For instance the government set a goal of 80%+ indiginization in the military industry, and all government and state institutions including SSB are acting accrodingly. That is how I can tell that their policy and strategy is based on achieving an independent defence industry because the steps to achieving this consistantly come back in the steps being taken within the industry.

The same idea can be applied in order to get an idea about political parties, media outlets and businesses. The thing that can mislead though is that, it needs to be recurring across many people and obviously the head of a set organization. If it comes from 1 or just a couple of people once in a while, doesnt necessarily mean that it is part of the organizations policy, but even the head of an organization can misspeak or be misquoted. But these types of incidents can be/are used to defame a whole political party, this is done to manipulate the people/us. We have seen this with all political parties in Turkey because like I said, it is not about objectivity but subjectivity. Not about what is true and right, but what is false and serves interests.

Regarding SSM/SSB:
SSM was tied to the ministry of defence. After the referendum it got tied directly to the presidency. Previously it was tied under the minister of defence, which was tied under the prime-minister. This means that even back when it was still SSM it was still under Erdogan, since he was prime-minister till 2014, SSM became SSB in 2017 when these changes were implemented.

If I got this correct, SSM was promoted to become a ministry but with the change in the system it is now called presidency (baskanlik). Instead of answering to the defence minister, it directly answers to top of the executive power (yurutmenin basi).

Source: https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/gunun-basl...̧arliği-cumhurbaskanligina-baglandi-/1013570
 

Kartal1

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Guys I know how easy it is to get on and on but I have to remind you that this is the Land Vehicle Programs thread... Thread will be cleansed and off topic posts moved to relevant thread. Thank you!
 

Combat-Master

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Otokar sets sights on export:
  • Arma 8x8 succeeded in Kazakhstan tests
  • Scorpion II studies continue. Diesel, hybrid and full electric drivetrains are being studied.

 

what

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Tosyali is in talks to buy the remaining 25% stake of infamous Ethem Sancak in BMC. Remaining stakes are with Qatar 49% and the Öztürk family. Tosyali is making its money with steel.


 

Test7

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Tosyali is in talks to buy the remaining 25% stake of infamous Ethem Sancak in BMC. Remaining stakes are with Qatar 49% and the Öztürk family. Tosyali is making its money with steel.



I dont want to go into political issues, but there is only one reason that comes to my mind.
Ethem Sancak knows that what will happen if government change.
 

Test7

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FNSS Kama

I recommend that you do not follow channels that use this type of title. Often they have the goal of exploiting national feelings and increasing their viewing rate. It is almost impossible for information or images that are not available on DefenceHub to be in their clickbait videos.
 

Combat-Master

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KAPLAN STA

Speed: 65 kmh
Swimming: 6.3 kmh
Range: 525+ km
Slope Climbing: 70%
Side Slope: 40%
Trench Crossing: 1.8 m
ebcc9bb4-5a2a-47d2-c74d-190723d30181.png
 

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