TR Land Vehicle Programs

[Masesebe]

Looks like Arma.

I think it has a similar approach and a DNA of arma and boxer APC which is great .
With the domestic powerpack it will be over 90 % domestic product .
On the other hand fnss pars apc family has another approach and needs and in the end the land forces will get both .
And who knows maybe we will see a tumosan 8x8 apc in idef expo 2021 .
For an example turkey uses 4x4 armored vehicles from most of the companies in turkey .
Otokar cobra 1 & 2 , katmerciler hizir , bmc vuran and amazon ,nurel makina ejder and other .
The same thing will be for 6x6 and 8x8 .
Every vehicle has its unique performance .
And we see that in turkish 4x4 products .
Some countries prefer ejder yalcin and some bmc amazon and some otokar cobras and others ......
But one thing is important and that is to make all products fully domistic .
And we all know why .
Because of that a lot of companies working on developing powerpacks
And that will not affect only militarized products , also civilian .
Like vehicles busses and trucks

 

[Nutuk]

What about armor, endurance, strength?

I too want a 99% if possible 100% Turkish armor, but let face it Otokar and FNSS both have had their vehicles on tests for years and successfully exported them, meaning they are good!

If there would be a real tender with real testing them out, than yes of course these 3 companies should compete with blood and sweat to get the order. But to be honest I lost faith in "the best getting the order" in Turkey.

 

[Inspector_spacetime]

Why are defenders of this non transparant issue always bringing up Otokar, is there no FNSS and or ASFAT?

Is Ethem going to tell what kind of robbery he is doing?

SSB is the responsible institution who has to be transparant here, they are the institution who are the purchasing department. Not Ethem!!!

SSB has been leading many projects within the industry and has a proven track record of doing things accordingly, to which our defence industry has almost reached it's goal (80% + indigineous, with all strategic components being either indigineous or at least have the know how to make them indiginously). Doubting SSB, despite this track record, is really unnecesary in my opinion. If there were attempts to corruption with tenders etc, SSB itself would be the first one to stop it. On top of that, if corruption was rampant, than that would've shown in the industry's development, or lack thereof.

The only reason BMC is discussed so much is because there are political motives behind it. Our politicians, sadly to say, are low level. Instead of acting like they all belong to the same entity and trying to improve our country by supporting each other through giving feedback whether positive or negative by objectively looking at every issue, as well as providing alternatives and being pro-active with their own projects, etc. But instead they are just mudslinging at each other, calling each other corrupt etc. Then it becomes an issue of "guilty until proven innocent", instead of it being the other way around.

And sadly, this is effective as evidenced by the countless low-level and uninformed discussions among the people and social media. The whole discussion revolving BMC is one of the more prominent examples of this. So much so (even in this thread) people are directly or indirectly asking for evidence that BMC and SSB are not corrupt. Which eventually results in wear down in our most strategic organizations, with people losing faith in them, which is really sad and unfair. Especially considering that this notion and sentiment is due to internal political propaganda. Not to mention it weakens us internally to outside forces. A polarized country is easier to attack and makes it easier to find internal factions to manipulate and do their bidding and attacking a country from within.

 

[Nutuk]

SSM did that, but since a few years it is SSB. Not independent but tied to the big boss, doing what big boss want to

 

[Inspector_spacetime]

SSM did that, but since a few years it is SSB. Not independent but tied to the big boss, doing what big boss want to

What exactly are you trying to say here? Was SSM independent back then?

 

[Masesebe]

What about armor, endurance, strength?

I too want a 99% if possible 100% Turkish armor, but let face it Otokar and FNSS both have had their vehicles on tests for years and successfully exported them, meaning they are good!

If there would be a real tender with real testing them out, than yes of course these 3 companies should compete with blood and sweat to get the order. But to be honest I lost faith in "the best getting the order" in Turkey.

Look man i dont know whats going in you're mind , but you should know that SSB already ordered 100 fnss APC and they are planning to get more .
Also bmc 8x8 is still in tests , even the company it self didnt make a formal statment about the vehicle and there is no order .
And if there is an order that means the vehicle is suitable for the land force and congratulation .
The otokar arma is a great vehicle but i think the problem is the powerpack and i hope that soon they will be able to put tumosan powerpack as will as fnss pars .
We saw a lot of countries getting both orokar arma and fnss pars .
And just to remind you about the bmc kirpi which is a huge player in the land forces and its doing it job perfectly .

 

[Nutuk]

You know exactly what I mean, and yes SSB is not as independent as it once was. Murad Bayar isn't wasted just for nothing

 

[Masesebe]

You know exactly what I mean, and yes SSB is not as independent as it once was. Murad Bayar isn't wasted just for nothing

As it once was ?!!!!!!! , Are you kidding me hahah .
Oh now i see , you want a foreigner to control the country and the army .
Good luck with that , do you want ordinary people go back and eat of the trash again .
Look here we talk about military equipments , if you want to spread you're toxic mentality you can go and join the haters of turkey , there are many nowdays , golan , isis , pkk , ypd , russia usa , you choose .

 

[Combat-Master]

You know exactly what I mean, and yes SSB is not as independent as it once was. Murad Bayar isn't wasted just for nothing

Murad Bayar was good, but to put a notion across like he or anyone else could go against head of state on final decisions is ... well you know what it is.

 

[Zafer]

Murad Bayar was acceptable for his time but when Turkey was to shift gears the times of Murad Bayar was to be left in the dust.

 

[Test7]

BMC 8x8

 

[Tornadoss]

As it once was ?!!!!!!! , Are you kidding me hahah .
Oh now i see , you want a foreigner to control the country and the army .
Good luck with that , do you want ordinary people go back and eat of the trash again .
Look here we talk about military equipments , if you want to spread you're toxic mentality you can go and join the haters of turkey , there are many nowdays , golan , isis , pkk , ypd , russia usa , you choose .

Huh, painting everyone as traitor who are against the government for their favoritism and corruption. You guys are incredible.

 

[Test7]

Dear members, please avoid personal statements when discussing.

 

[Nutuk]

I would be one of the least on this forum wanting foreigners to rule us.

SSB certainly make things that make us proud, but that should not lead to a blind eye to less acceptable practices.

100 good's does not wipe away one wrong. The wrong remains too.

 

[Masesebe]

I would be one of the least on this forum wanting foreigners to rule us.

SSB certainly make things that make us proud, but that should not lead to a blind eye to less acceptable practices.

100 good's does not wipe away one wrong. The wrong remains too.

Can you describe wrongness please .
There is no such a word as perfection .
But everyone should understand that APC is not a game changer , yes it is better than MRAP , but it cant take the role of infantry fighting vehicles like puma or a tank like altay , so because of that SSB is not that open to APCs with low domestic rate and they already have a lot of MRAPs such kirpi .
What they want is a high rate domestic product .
They ordered the fnss pars APC because fnss decided to put in tumosan powerpack , they wrote notes and applied .
Dont misunderstand me otokar is a great company but they lack the passion to take another steps to make their products more domestic which is the new compass for turkey and its military .
And that doesnt applied on 4x4 light armored vehicles .
And i am sure that SSB will order bmc 8x8 because it is high domestic product , their peoducts are hard battlied and combat proven .
So there is no corruption in that .

 

[TheInsider]

BMC will get the tender for the 8x8 period. It is decided. Otokar probably won't submit any offer.

BASE provides AWD rolling chassis of the BMC 8x8 vehicles. The chassis is a national design. There are rumors that BMC bought the IP and design rights of the 8x8 vehicles from South Africa like Kirpi and Vuran vehicles and integrated the BASE chassis. Nothing proved though. Eventually, I expect BMC to create a 6x6 version of its 8x8 vehicle. Pars İzci got the contract for some of the 6x6 vehicles it will be some time until more 6x6 vehicles will be procured. Note that huge 2962 armored vehicle order will be completed in batches with separate contracts over years.

BMC doesn't have any tracked IFV like Tulpar but it doesn't surprise me if BMC comes up with something in the future. New generation tracked IFV tender won't happen before Altay becomes a reality. BMC most likely will come up with a solution that uses Altays lower part(Like Otokar Tulpar). While producing Altay, BMC will gain enough experience to design an IFV so Altay production has to start before BMC IFV can become a reality.

BMC Karasu factory wont become online for a long time. That is why tank-palet factory is given to BMC. I think 2025 might be a realistic date for Karasu factory to become operational.

Otokar is focused on exports. Arma is one of the best products today available on the market (especially Rabdan 8x8 version).

One other note. BMC will sell Fırtına-2 SPH. Fırtına-1 unit cost was 4.2 million $(while the dollar/TL exchange ratio was around 2.5TL so more or less 10million TL per SHP). Today, BMC is selling Fırtına-2s for 7 million$ (exchange ratio is ~8 so 56 million TL per SPH). Land forces wanted to procure another 250 SPH like the first Fırtına 1 package but the order has to be trimmed down to 140 accordingly due to pricing.

 

[Tornadoss]

One other note. BMC will sell Fırtına-2 SPH. Fırtına-1 unit cost was 4.2 million $(while the dollar/TL exchange ratio was around 2.5TL so more or less 10million TL per SHP). Today, BMC is selling Fırtına-2s for 7 million$ (exchange ratio is ~8 so 56 million TL per SPH). Land forces wanted to procure another 250 SPH like the first Fırtına 1 package but the order has to be trimmed down to 140 accordingly due to pricing.

State was able to produce own SPH, now BMC will produce it probably with profit. So what is this if not corruption?

 

[TheInsider]

I guess BMC probably makes %20-30 profit per SPH it is not huge but it is indeed a good amount. Formerly the state bought the SPH for the production cost price. Now it is probably something like this 4.2 million+1 to 1,5 million for the Fırtına-2 specific upgrades+BMC profit.

 

[Nutuk]

Can you describe wrongness please .
There is no such a word as perfection .
But everyone should understand that APC is not a game changer , yes it is better than MRAP , but it cant take the role of infantry fighting vehicles like puma or a tank like altay , so because of that SSB is not that open to APCs with low domestic rate and they already have a lot of MRAPs such kirpi .
What they want is a high rate domestic product .
They ordered the fnss pars APC because fnss decided to put in tumosan powerpack , they wrote notes and applied .
Dont misunderstand me otokar is a great company but they lack the passion to take another steps to make their products more domestic which is the new compass for turkey and its military .
And that doesnt applied on 4x4 light armored vehicles .
And i am sure that SSB will order bmc 8x8 because it is high domestic product , their peoducts are hard battlied and combat proven .
So there is no corruption in that .

Wrongness as favoritism.

Neither of the companies (FNSS, Otokar or BMC) is my fathers property, they all are national companies of Turkey. But if projects are started to be handed down in favoritism than the purpose of SSB goes down the drain. Favoritism would strengthen one company (at cost of two other companies).

I am not saying that BMC should not get projects they should, but in fair tenders.

The fair tender issue is lately not so present as many will agree.

 

[Ryder]

I find it a bit ridiculous if bmc gets everything.

There needs to be a balance between the brands. Bmc might do better than others but the other brands like Otokar and FNSS can do better than BMC.

Bmc is going to become the jack of all trades thats not good as we should not be dependant on one company for our defence needs.