TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Turko]

It's claimed by some sources that indigenous RAM missile will be based on Sungur. We should expect a system like Simbad I guess.

Particularly Sungur is a system like Sinbad which isnt as close as RAM.

 

[Combat-Master]

It's claimed by some sources that indigenous RAM missile will be based on Sungur. We should expect a system like Simbad I guess.

We already have a system like simbad, it's called Bora.

Maybe something a little more potent, like Sadral - Unlike Mistral missiles, Sungur is an all-up-round canister missile and is sealed shut from all the weather/ocean elements.

 

[TheInsider]

Sungur is way better than Stinger or similar MANPADS apart from having an IIR seeker it has a continuous titanium rod warhead which is better at stopping threats compared to HE frag warheads so a Ram like a system is possible. A slightly scaled-up Sungur with a range of 10km will be a lot cheaper system with comparable performance especially if you take into account the Piri KATS system currently in use.

PIRI (PANORAMIC INFRARED IMAGING) - IRST (INFRARED SEARCH AND TRACK SYSTEM) | ASELSAN

PIRI (PANORAMIC INFRARED IMAGING) - IRST (INFRARED SEARCH AND TRACK SYSTEM)

www.aselsan.com.tr

Continuous-rod warhead - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Siper>MMU]

IIR seeker will provide better AShM capabilities compared to Mistral. Integrating with ships combat management system and TDL. Sungur can be a good and cheap solution for light ships such as OPVs and FACs. But for larger ships we need a "pure" anti-missile missile.

 

[TheInsider]

IIR seeker will provide better AShM capabilities compared to Mistral. Integrating with ships combat management system and TDL. Sungur can be a good and cheap solution for light ships such as OPVs and FACs. But for larger ships we need a "pure" anti-missile missile.

That pure anti-missile missile will be fired from VLS. Do you know how much a Ram system cost? Fucking 25-30 million $ And for what? Similar performance to a Sungur which is magnitudes cheaper.

 

[Siper>MMU]

That pure anti-missile missile will be fired from VLS. Do you know how much a Ram system cost? Fucking 25-30 million $ And for what? Similar performance to a Sungur which is magnitudes cheaper.

Ram has almost twice the range of Sungur. Also with %95 hit rate and additional passive RF guidance. Sungur and Ram is not even close.

 

[TheInsider]

Ram has a 10km range Sungur has 8km. Sungur can match the range of Ram with slight modifications. 1 Ram missile costs nearly as much as an ESSM i would rather pay that money for ESSM than RAM.

RF seeker(more correctly RF interferometer) is not a strength on the contrary it might be a weakness. We don't know the performance of RAM under the influence of the systems like Aselsan Ares-2

 

[Siper>MMU]

Ram has a 10km range Sungur has 8km. Sungur can match the range of Ram with slight modifications. 1 Ram missile costs nearly as much as an ESSM i would rather pay that money for ESSM than RAM.

Ram Block 2 has 16km range. Ram's passive RF seeker provides better reaction time against low IR signature targets such as UAVs or low flying AShM s. But Sungur's only IIR seeker guidance, requires a visual on target for seeker. But with a larger body and additional LOAL capabilities, Sungur can match with RAM.

 

[dustdevil]

Sungur is way better than Stinger or similar MANPADS apart from having an IIR seeker it has a continuous titanium rod warhead which is better at stopping threats compared to HE frag warheads so a Ram like a system is possible. A slightly scaled-up Sungur with a range of 10km will be a lot cheaper system with comparable performance especially if you take into account the Piri KATS system currently in use.

PIRI (PANORAMIC INFRARED IMAGING) - IRST (INFRARED SEARCH AND TRACK SYSTEM) | ASELSAN

PIRI (PANORAMIC INFRARED IMAGING) - IRST (INFRARED SEARCH AND TRACK SYSTEM)

www.aselsan.com.tr

Continuous-rod warhead - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

“Continuous titanium rod warhead”
Any source for this information?

 

[TheInsider]

No there is no such thing as a low IR signature target at an 8km range. Suddenly argument for RAM turned into RAM2 which is a completely different missile system. Make no mistake and don't let the name fool you RAM2 is a different missile from the bottom up and it is even more expensive than RAM or ESSM. The rocket engine, body, seeker, control surfaces, and actuators nearly everything is re-designed. That is why it took too long to introduce it.

We are trying to replace RAM here not try to introduce RAM 2.

 

[Yasar_TR]

RAM is expensive. Each missile cost is as mentioned here, is close to a million dollars. You have 21 of those when you fill one battery.
The missile has a speed of 2+ Mach .
Bozdogan , if it costs same as aim9x, should be a third of a RAM missile with a top speed of 4+ Mach and a range more than RAM block 2.
Because of it’s speed and range advantage it could engage more enemy missiles at a time, and further away from the ship. It could actually be used against supersonic anti ship missiles. It may even negate the need of ESSM. Leaving ship’s VLS canisters to be used for anti aircraft and anti ballistic missile launch.

 

[Anmdt]

Ram Block 2 has 16km range. Ram's passive RF seeker provides better reaction time against low IR signature targets such as UAVs or low flying AShM s. But Sungur's only IIR seeker guidance, requires a visual on target for seeker. But with a larger body and additional LOAL capabilities, Sungur can match with RAM.

In other words, re-designing sungur to meet demands of a RAM-like system will end up with a RAM-like missile. It will cost as much as a bozdoğan based RAM, even more due to additional modifications.

While Bozdoğan WVR is closer to being RAM, instead of Sungur, it doesn't have to have a rolling airframe if there is a new circular RF interferometer to meaure RF signals in all planes.

Sungur still will be point-defense system for many small platforms, but TAF had stinger and other manpads in inventory, also zıpkın etc KMS systems and eventually a Bora system re-designed for naval systems but it wasn't used until now except of being given to individual personnel to be used as shoulder launched MANPADS.

Because even on a smallest platform Navy would prefer the missile to have 2-way data link, re-engagement capability and slightly longer range than what sungur has achieved. So it is morelikely sungur will be enlargened to be Sungur-D but Bozdoğan will be the real basis of a RAM-like system.

“Continuous titanium rod warhead”
Any source for this information?

SUNGUR Gerçek Anlamda Bir 4ncü Nesil MANPADS!

10 Eylül 2013 tarihinde imzalanan sözleşme kapsamında Roketsan tarafından milli imkanlarla geliştirilip testleri yapılan ve proje takvimine göre Eylül 2020’den itibaren kullanıcıya teslimatı planlanan Türkiye’nin yeni Mobil Alçak İrtifa Kısa Menzilli Hava Savunma Sistemi SUNGUR aynı zamanda...

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Siper>MMU]

RAM is expensive. Each missile cost is as mentioned here, is close to a million dollars. You have 21 of those when you fill one battery.
The missile has a speed of 2+ Mach .
Bozdogan , if it costs same as aim9x, should be a third of a RAM missile with a top speed of 4+ Mach and a range more than RAM block 2.
Because of it’s speed and range advantage it could engage more enemy missiles at a time, and further away from the ship. It could actually be used against supersonic anti ship missiles. It may even negate the need of ESSM. Leaving ship’s VLS canisters to be used for anti aircraft and anti ballistic missile laun

So? We would end up having a low capacity system like Sea Chaparral? Bozdoğan is just too big for such an application. Even with folded wings, it would take so many space. You can place almost 3 Sungur missiles within place of 1 Bozdoğan.

 

[dustdevil]

In other words, re-designing sungur to meet demands of a RAM-like system will end up with a RAM-like missile. It will cost as much as a bozdoğan based RAM, even more due to additional modifications.

While Bozdoğan WVR is closer to being RAM, instead of Sungur, it doesn't have to have a rolling airframe if there is a new circular RF interferometer to meaure RF signals in all planes.

Sungur still will be point-defense system for many small platforms, but TAF had stinger and other manpads in inventory, also zıpkın etc KMS systems and eventually a Bora system re-designed for naval systems but it wasn't used until now except of being given to individual personnel to be used as shoulder launched MANPADS.

Because even on a smallest platform Navy would prefer the missile to have 2-way data link, re-engagement capability and slightly longer range than what sungur has achieved. So it is morelikely sungur will be enlargened to be Sungur-D but Bozdoğan will be the real basis of a RAM-like system.

SUNGUR Gerçek Anlamda Bir 4ncü Nesil MANPADS!

10 Eylül 2013 tarihinde imzalanan sözleşme kapsamında Roketsan tarafından milli imkanlarla geliştirilip testleri yapılan ve proje takvimine göre Eylül 2020’den itibaren kullanıcıya teslimatı planlanan Türkiye’nin yeni Mobil Alçak İrtifa Kısa Menzilli Hava Savunma Sistemi SUNGUR aynı zamanda...

www.defenceturkey.com

The author is one of the best but as he stated it’s a guess, not official information.

 

[Anmdt]

RAM is expensive. Each missile cost is as mentioned here, is close to a million dollars. You have 21 of those when you fill one battery.
The missile has a speed of 2+ Mach .
Bozdogan , if it costs same as aim9x, should be a third of a RAM missile with a top speed of 4+ Mach and a range more than RAM block 2.
Because of it’s speed and range advantage it could engage more enemy missiles at a time, and further away from the ship. It could actually be used against supersonic anti ship missiles. It may even negate the need of ESSM. Leaving ship’s VLS canisters to be used for anti aircraft and anti ballistic missile launch.

RAM doesn't replace ESSM, both of these would be individually needed.
Also price of a missile based CIWS derived from Bozdoğan will be still expensive, it won't be exactly Bozdoğan but a modified version with new flight kinetics, engagement, a new RF sensors etc. Definitely will cost more.
The question is, will they prefer going with a rolling airframe missile and 2-point RF sensor,
or; a fixed airframe missile with a circular-novel-unique RF sensor allowing an IIR seeker in middile.

Will they prefer changing kinetics of the missile and copy RAM the way Chinese did, or will they prefer to go for a novel circular RF sensor and eventually increasing endurance of the missile for a longer range compared to a rolling airframe.
I think they will go for latter.

Also we shouldn't forget the need of Missile to missile communication ability in case of data link may be jammed. An enemy will not fire AShMs one by one but in a salvo shoot. We don't need a replacement for RAM, we need a supply for demand of RAM block II in Turkish Navy to replace outdated RAM block I.

 

[TheInsider]

In other words, re-designing sungur to meet demands of a RAM-like system will end up with a RAM-like missile. It will cost as much as a bozdoğan based RAM, even more due to additional modifications.

While Bozdoğan WVR is closer to being RAM, instead of Sungur, it doesn't have to have a rolling airframe if there is a new circular RF interferometer to meaure RF signals in all planes.

Sungur still will be point-defense system for many small platforms, but TAF had stinger and other manpads in inventory, also zıpkın etc KMS systems and eventually a Bora system re-designed for naval systems but it wasn't used until now except of being given to individual personnel to be used as shoulder launched MANPADS.

Because even on a smallest platform Navy would prefer the missile to have 2-way data link, re-engagement capability and slightly longer range than what sungur has achieved. So it is morelikely sungur will be enlargened to be Sungur-D but Bozdoğan will be the real basis of a RAM-like system.

SUNGUR Gerçek Anlamda Bir 4ncü Nesil MANPADS!

10 Eylül 2013 tarihinde imzalanan sözleşme kapsamında Roketsan tarafından milli imkanlarla geliştirilip testleri yapılan ve proje takvimine göre Eylül 2020’den itibaren kullanıcıya teslimatı planlanan Türkiye’nin yeni Mobil Alçak İrtifa Kısa Menzilli Hava Savunma Sistemi SUNGUR aynı zamanda...

www.defenceturkey.com

No, we won't redesign Sungur from the scratch. We will use it as is or we will slightly increase its range if that 2 km extra range is making a meaningful difference in combat simulations. This can be done by slightly increasing the length or width of the missile or improving the rocket motor or miniaturizing the subsystems of the missile and allocate the area gained for extra solid fuel. These tasks are neither expensive nor effort-heavy work compared to redesigning a missile. They are more in line with product improvement kinda like Hisar-A/A+.

Bozdoğan weighs 140kg( RAM missile weighs ~73kg) and it is designed to be fired from air platforms it needs serious work to be fired from the ground. The Ram launcher system weighs close to 6 tonnes and we can expect a similar Bozdoğan launcher system to weigh at least 12 tonnes. We can expect Bozdoğan to reach 1/3 of its air-launched range when launched from the ground which means ~10km.

Finland Selects Nowregian/U.S. NASAMS for SA-11 Replacement

web.archive.org

NASAMS - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TheInsider]

RAM doesn't replace ESSM, both of these would be individually needed.
Also price of a missile based CIWS derived from Bozdoğan will be still expensive, it won't be exactly Bozdoğan but a modified version with new flight kinetics, engagement, a new RF sensors etc. Definitely will cost more.
The question is, will they prefer going with a rolling airframe missile and 2-point RF sensor,
or; a fixed airframe missile with a circular-novel-unique RF sensor allowing an IIR seeker in middile.

Will they prefer changing kinetics of the missile and copy RAM the way Chinese did, or will they prefer to go for a novel circular RF sensor and eventually increasing endurance of the missile for a longer range compared to a rolling airframe.
I think they will go for latter.

Also we shouldn't forget the need of Missile to missile communication ability in case of data link may be jammed. An enemy will not fire AShMs one by one but in a salvo shoot. We don't need a replacement for RAM, we need a supply for demand of RAM block II in Turkish Navy to replace outdated RAM block I.

This isnt true. I asked many Navy weapons officers and they said having both RAM and ESSM is redundant. Turkish Navy puts RAM system on the vessels which don't have ESSM because it is still a cheaper alternative than installing VLS(big work the ship has to designed for VLS in the first place) plus filling VLS with ESSM. Per missile cost of RAM and ESSM is similar and ESSM can intercept missiles as good as RAM. So if i have ESSM which costs and performs similar/better to RAM on my ship i don't need RAM. I would rather have phalanx. If i don't have ESSM on my ship and need a missile-based system with a reach that can stop AShM i would pick RAM.

If a vessel has ESSM what they want is CIWS like phalanx or Gokdeniz to complement it.

Ada class has Ram and no ESSM.
I class has ESSM and no RAM.

 

[Yasar_TR]

So? We would end up having a low capacity system like Sea Chaparral? Bozdoğan is just too big for such an application. Even with folded wings, it would take so many space. You can place almost 3 Sungur missiles within place of 1 Bozdoğan.
View attachment 18379

Bozdogan’s size is the only disadvantage here. But we have mk29 type ESSM missile canisters on ships. Same type of canisters can be used. So if chosen and if it is more advantageous, why not?
Yes. It will cost more than Sungur. Yes. It will take more space. Also it will be heavier. There are pluses and minuses that need to be weighed.

 

[Siper>MMU]

Bozdogan’s size is the only disadvantage here. But we have mk29 type ESSM missile canisters on ships. Same type of canisters can be used. So if chosen and if it is more advantageous, why not?
Yes. It will cost more than Sungur. Yes. It will take more space. Also it will be heavier. There are pluses and minuses that need to be weighed.
View attachment 18391

You can get 20~ Sungur missiles within a MK29 launcher ( maybe even more) with almost same range and capability.

 

[Anmdt]

No, we won't redesign Sungur from the scratch. We will use it as is or we will slightly increase its range if that 2 km extra range is making a meaningful difference in combat simulations. This can be done by slightly increasing the length or width of the missile or improving the rocket motor or miniaturizing the subsystems of the missile and allocate the area gained for extra solid fuel. These tasks are neither expensive nor effort-heavy work compared to redesigning a missile. They are more in line with product improvement kinda like Hisar-A/A+.

Bozdoğan weighs 140kg( RAM missile weighs ~73kg) and it is designed to be fired from air platforms it needs serious work to be fired from the ground. The Ram launcher system weighs close to 6 tonnes and we can expect a similar Bozdoğan launcher system to weigh at least 12 tonnes. We can expect Bozdoğan to reach 1/3 of its air-launched range when launched from the ground which means ~10km.

Finland Selects Nowregian/U.S. NASAMS for SA-11 Replacement

web.archive.org

NASAMS - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The only matter is not the range, if you again carefully read why US Navy needed a RAM - like system instead of having a Manpads with extended range as RAM you can understand the reason.
Also you can look at China, while having MANPADS, they developed a RAM-like missile for CIWS.

First RAM (block 0) was based on sidewinder + Stinger IR seeker or a RF sensor,the later versions are upgraded from this point, so why did these guy developed RAM from an AA missile build instead of extending range of existing stinger, while in fact the missile was already using seeker of stinger.

It is maneuvarability, bozdoğan is much more maneuverable compared to Sungur. How many G's sungur can pull in a maneuver, how much bozdoğan can? This is the critical point of a CIWS missile, being highly maneuverable, having a re-engagement ability when it misses the target.

It is easier to develop a higly maneuverable missile from a missile with similar kinetics&maneuverability, from sungur you can only develop a VSHORAD.

And also one more point: Weight is a more serious concern for air platforms while it is almost not a concern for naval platforms. So talking about weight was really pointless.
20 x 140 kg - 20 x 75 kg = 1300 kg, literally a fly for a warship/corvette/FAC, an excess of a few tonnes is not really a concern for ships as long as it stays with 1%.
Or 20x 160 (exaggerating weight of bozdoğan based CIWS) - 20x 30 = 2400 kg, again nothing for a ship.

While it would become a real concern for small boats, which is not threatened by AShM missiles but more by helicopters, in which case these kind of boats already carry MANPADS to be launched from shoulder, in future they can be upgraded with RC Sungur.

Also; AMRAAM was developed for air platforms but then used for NASAMS and gained a lot of attraction because of commonality. Which means air-to-air missiles can easily be converted to a ground to air.

Also; Sea Sparrow was derived from an air-to-air missile.

Also; MICA - CAMM, used both for AA and CIWS-Point defense, which again proves: CIWS and Point defense missiles have to be highly maneuverable.