France's generals warn Macron 'if you don't prevent growing chaos, civil war will break out'

Kaptaan

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My own opinion is migration has to be 100% halted. Even no more asylums. Yes if a millionaire or doctor applies they should be considered. Along with this strict policy no more wars or intrusions abroad. Non.
 

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My own opinion is migration has to be 100% halted. Even no more asylums. Yes if a millionaire or doctor applies they should be considered. Along with this strict policy no more wars or intrusions abroad. Non.
It will be stopped when ordinary french people decide once again to do low profiled jobs. That train has passed. You can not outsource medical stuff, contructi9n and various crafts work. Simplier solution is that french state admits defeat of militant secularism which inclines to the fasism or other option will be materialisation of this letter.
 

Kaptaan

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It will be stopped when ordinary french people decide once again to do low profiled jobs. That train has passed. You can not outsource medical stuff, contructi9n and various crafts work. Simplier solution is that french state admits defeat of militant secularism which inclines to the fasism or other option will be materialisation of this letter.
With respect, I disagree. A economy should endeavour to up the value chain. I understand very well that as this process happens, citizens of that country don't want to do basic things like a taxi, a painter, a cleaner etc. The truth is they will do those jobs but expect higher wages. This means average citizens like you and me have be prepared to pay more for these services. If you pay enough your own citizens wil do these jobs.

This also has another effect. As wages go up for these basic jobs this encourages adaptation of technology to take the burden of those jobs. This is real value addition and helps all your citizens.

I give you one example of this. By 1990s all car washes in UK had gone automatic. The reason was labour was too expensive. Large companies sprouted like IMO that used high technology at their sites to wash your car. Everything was automatic and cost was £3.

Came late 1990s and we had huge influx of migrants in UK. Next thing on every unoccupied plot of land these hand car washes opened with a mob of guys doing everything by hand. Standard of wash tended to vary by place and even by day but on average I would say they were better then IMO autowashes particularly as the concern with damage to high quality modern paints by those rolling brushes. But the killer was they charged £3. Think about that.

The result was they put many of those auto places out of business. This is example of economic reverse gear. And this is not good even if at a personal level I as customer got my car hand washed. Typically these guys were being paid below legal wages and were ran by criminal rackets.

You want you economy to climb up causing increasing technology to enter every area of activity. In India they have 100,000s of men pulling rickshaws. This is hardly a good thing. It demonstrates that wages are so low on the bottom end in India that men are cheaper then animals at pulling leave alone a engine as means of articulation.

Is that what people want? I think some groups are behind this. What happens as workers demand higher pay and the employers push to create a alternate pool of cheap labour to keep wages low. This is where migration comes into this. That is why the ruling elites in the west have allowed inner cities in their countries to go through demographic change over the decades.

I give you a example close to home. I live in North England and in the hills of pennines there are lots of small mill towns. Horrid. Examples of Victorian squalor. Always were and still are. These mill towns grew around streams of water that was ideal for washing wool. The hills that are everywhere are only good for animal pasture and that means sheep everywhere. This gave birth to woolen industry. This was a dirty, filthy business. Workers died young inhaling the dust from the processing that went on inside these mills. Soon most of the worlds wool was being exported from these towns.

Typically the owners built a mill and then constructed row after of cheap terrace housing to crowd in their workers. I read that the average lifespan of the wool worker was 45 and they began the work by age 13-14 including girls. This is sort of industry that put the "Great" into Britain.

Post war and 1950s things had changed. The new generation did not want to work in those mills. As labour dried up wages went up and even then there were not enough workers willing to work in those disgusting mills.

This is when the mill owners approached UK government which arranged with Pakistan to bring in migrant workers. Soon entire mill towns were full of Pakistani workers and these mills again boomed returning huge profits. This was a rremarkable emerging social experiment playing out. Workers recruited from Pakistan with the poorest, most conservative, backward, illiterate demographies poured into these towns. Some of the slightly better of amongst them left soon after working in the hellish mills. That left only those who came from the most desperate situations. It might be harsh but these guys were the scrapings from bottom of the barrel in Pakistani society.

With 15 years of them arriving or about early 1970s these mills began to go bust and close down. The reason was countries across the globe like Taiwan, Argentina, China, Hong Kong and even Pakistan began to compete. Given their lower costs these mills closed down. Today almost all are shut down except for a few that make very high speciality wools using hi-tec computerized manufacture and products that cater to the top end of the market.

So what become of the mill towns? Mass unemployment. As the native English had left the squalor of the terrace houses for the newly built suburbs a sharp racial divide has come about. Over the past 20/30 years these communities have become feertile ground for Islamists.

This is not good because they now provide the fuel for the far right. Thus far the situation is stable but my fear is if this sort of thing continues which is result of what they call political myopia - that is in a 5 year election cycle political governments make decisions on a narrow 5 year window even if the results 20 years down the road are disasterous.

Note I am also a son of a migrant although I was lucky that my father came to UK as lawyer wanting to do his post-graduate studies so I was fortunate to have a privilaged upbringing. But I have to look at the issue objectively for the sake of our future generations.

I often defend my community because I can't allow far right narrative to gain ground but the fact is wqe have to find a holistic solution for the sake of all. Note that in differant regions of UK the same pattern is repeated. It could b e Sikhs, Black Afro-Caribreans etc etc. All have their own particulat issues.

For instance Islamists might be a issue in the Pakistani areas but if you got to London where the Afro-Caribeans have their 'hood' shooting, stabbing, mugging is rage. 70% of London stabbing or shooting happens within this community.
 

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In India they have 100,000s of men pulling rickshaws.

Wrong. There are just a handful left (if that) in only Kolkata, mostly by a "legacy" inertia.

International labour statistics has the following as output per worker i.e productivity w.r.t large population countries in South Asia:


Bangladesh = 10k
Pakistan = 15k
India = 21k

I won't go into savings or investment rate that will dictate where these trends go this decade. 1 country of these 3 is doing next to nothing on it.

I agree with your post in the more general context.

Higher Labour pricing and vertical internal automation etc will happen if you stop immigration.

The argument becomes how much profit margin is required by companies at various tiers to achieve more productive breakthroughs....as this does need pooling of resources significantly (that becomes ripe target for populist argument to "redistribute" in more throughfare wage consumption).

In any case, the security and law+order is paramount to even having these debates in first place. If there is a large or total breakdown in sufficient intensity, that is an externality that is simply not priced in at all by the immigration (and integration) argument.
 

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To summarize they are criticizing the government's inaction and softness against those who are trying to divide the nation. The islamists,the racialists,those who want to rewrite our country's history and people of immigrant background who create insecurity in the suburbs. They say our laws are already strong but that our justice system is too soft against all those people and that we don't use the potential of our penal code to strictly condemn criminals,terrorists etc.

I'll tell you an exemple. Few days ago there was a trial about immigrant background youths who in 2016 in Viry-Châtillon attacked police officers who were inside their cars protecting a CCTV that was installed in the area. Dozens and dozens of them came threw molotov in their cars and blocked the doors so they couldn't get out. It was a miracle they weren't dead.

View attachment 19303
View attachment 19304

All those "good people" risked life in prison but many received sentences of between 6 years to 18 years. They say criminals don't fear the justice and the police because we are too soft on them.

They say that if the government continues to be soft and does nothing it will need the army to restore order at the cost of thousands and thousands of lives.

As for solutions they just say the government should strictly apply current laws . if the government continues to be soft and does nothing the army will need to restore order at a cost of thousands and thousands of lives. Lot of interpretations in this sentence.

BTW polls showed 40% of French would like to live under a totalitarian regime and 60% would like strong technocrats in power,unelected but strong who would push for needed reforms..

I remember the 2 year yellow vest protest that no main stream media wanted to report. The french police behaved like savage violent animals. The violence and criminality the french state employed was shocking terrifying stuff. It made gezi in Turkey look like childs play.


Have the protests ended or are they still going?
 
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Kaptaan

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Wrong. There are just a handful left (if that) in only Kolkata, mostly by a "legacy" inertia.
Sorry. That was the case until 2017 when I looked into the very interesting Indian industry. The fact is that was not 1000 years ago. Even today you have 10,000s of human articulated pedel cycled rickshaws which are only slight up on the man pulled ones. Anyway we can open a thread to look into this phenomenon later as I don't want to deviate from this thread. So let us leave that for a dedicated thread on man rickshaws.
 

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Sorry. That was the case until 2017 when I looked into the very interesting Indian industry. The fact is that was not 1000 years ago. Even today you have 10,000s of human articulated pedel cycled rickshaws which are only slight up on the man pulled ones. Anyway we can open a thread to look into this phenomenon later as I don't want to deviate from this thread. So let us leave that for a dedicated thread on man rickshaws.

If you have any source that says there were "100s of thousands" of rickshaw pullers in 2017, lets see it.

As for cycle rickshaws (vis a vis motor rickshaws), anyone can google "Pakistan cycle rickshaws" regarding this whole matter. There is even a whole tribune.pk article on one such thing...I guess that will have to be posted if you do start a thread on it later.

You can start any thread on any such matter....it will go the same usual way (as the ones before it) especially once you filter out your specific "go to" cherrypicked anecdotes.

i.e The way of a 60 dollars (and decreasing) saved per person would naturally go....compared to what the other two countries in the region do (and how this bears out in just about every economic number of consequence).

If a country doesn't save and invest at a basic level (forget even growing past that), one can similarly forget about any meaningful productivity and economy debate to begin with.

There was no reason to bring India into this thread. So I had to clarify what was faulty (and non-credible) regarding it.

France and Europe-at-large and developed world have plenty of context for the OP-related argument on their own.
 

Kaptaan

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If you have any source that says there were "100s of thousands" of rickshaw pullers in 2017, lets see it.

As for cycle rickshaws (vis a vis motor rickshaws), anyone can google "Pakistan cycle rickshaws" regarding this whole matter. There is even a whole tribune.pk article on one such thing...I guess that will have to be posted if you do start a thread on it later.

You can start any thread on any such matter....it will go the same usual way (as the ones before it) especially once you filter out your specific "go to" cherrypicked anecdotes.

i.e The way of a 60 dollars (and decreasing) saved per person would naturally go....compared to what the other two countries in the region do (and how this bears out in just about every economic number of consequence).

If a country doesn't save and invest at a basic level (forget even growing past that), one can similarly forget about any meaningful productivity and economy debate to begin with.

There was no reason to bring India into this thread. So I had to clarify what was faulty (and non-credible) regarding it.

France and Europe-at-large and developed world have plenty of context for the OP-related argument on their own.
Which part of the "I don't want to deviate" this thread did you not understand. I will open a dedicated thread on the man drawn taxis of India where you will have plenty of chance to mask it. So be patient.

I don't want to deviate from this thread.
 

Kaptaan

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@Vergennes Western Europe needs a frank, honest and open debate on migration. This subject will be the greatest challange the region will face over the next 50 years. Far greater then the threat from Islamism which always was overplayed.

Most migration is driven by pull and push factors. The greatest factor informing the push is population growth. The surplus created as deaths fall leads to a huge surge creating a massive pool of unemployed young men. In most parts of the world populations are now past the apex point on the graph. However Sub Saharan Africa is about to hit that point and over next 50 years will the source of massive waves of migration. In fact this haas already began. This wave will be sucked up the Sahara and leak into the Mediteranean through unstable countries primarily Libya which was destabilised by design.

This wave will and is washing on the shores of Southern Europe. How this is tackled will be crucial or it might as I fear lead to the chaos and rise of the far right as we saw in Europe of the 1930s.

 

mulj

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With respect, I disagree. A economy should endeavour to up the value chain. I understand very well that as this process happens, citizens of that country don't want to do basic things like a taxi, a painter, a cleaner etc. The truth is they will do those jobs but expect higher wages. This means average citizens like you and me have be prepared to pay more for these services. If you pay enough your own citizens wil do these jobs.

This also has another effect. As wages go up for these basic jobs this encourages adaptation of technology to take the burden of those jobs. This is real value addition and helps all your citizens.

I give you one example of this. By 1990s all car washes in UK had gone automatic. The reason was labour was too expensive. Large companies sprouted like IMO that used high technology at their sites to wash your car. Everything was automatic and cost was £3.

Came late 1990s and we had huge influx of migrants in UK. Next thing on every unoccupied plot of land these hand car washes opened with a mob of guys doing everything by hand. Standard of wash tended to vary by place and even by day but on average I would say they were better then IMO autowashes particularly as the concern with damage to high quality modern paints by those rolling brushes. But the killer was they charged £3. Think about that.

The result was they put many of those auto places out of business. This is example of economic reverse gear. And this is not good even if at a personal level I as customer got my car hand washed. Typically these guys were being paid below legal wages and were ran by criminal rackets.

You want you economy to climb up causing increasing technology to enter every area of activity. In India they have 100,000s of men pulling rickshaws. This is hardly a good thing. It demonstrates that wages are so low on the bottom end in India that men are cheaper then animals at pulling leave alone a engine as means of articulation.

Is that what people want? I think some groups are behind this. What happens as workers demand higher pay and the employers push to create a alternate pool of cheap labour to keep wages low. This is where migration comes into this. That is why the ruling elites in the west have allowed inner cities in their countries to go through demographic change over the decades.

I give you a example close to home. I live in North England and in the hills of pennines there are lots of small mill towns. Horrid. Examples of Victorian squalor. Always were and still are. These mill towns grew around streams of water that was ideal for washing wool. The hills that are everywhere are only good for animal pasture and that means sheep everywhere. This gave birth to woolen industry. This was a dirty, filthy business. Workers died young inhaling the dust from the processing that went on inside these mills. Soon most of the worlds wool was being exported from these towns.

Typically the owners built a mill and then constructed row after of cheap terrace housing to crowd in their workers. I read that the average lifespan of the wool worker was 45 and they began the work by age 13-14 including girls. This is sort of industry that put the "Great" into Britain.

Post war and 1950s things had changed. The new generation did not want to work in those mills. As labour dried up wages went up and even then there were not enough workers willing to work in those disgusting mills.

This is when the mill owners approached UK government which arranged with Pakistan to bring in migrant workers. Soon entire mill towns were full of Pakistani workers and these mills again boomed returning huge profits. This was a rremarkable emerging social experiment playing out. Workers recruited from Pakistan with the poorest, most conservative, backward, illiterate demographies poured into these towns. Some of the slightly better of amongst them left soon after working in the hellish mills. That left only those who came from the most desperate situations. It might be harsh but these guys were the scrapings from bottom of the barrel in Pakistani society.

With 15 years of them arriving or about early 1970s these mills began to go bust and close down. The reason was countries across the globe like Taiwan, Argentina, China, Hong Kong and even Pakistan began to compete. Given their lower costs these mills closed down. Today almost all are shut down except for a few that make very high speciality wools using hi-tec computerized manufacture and products that cater to the top end of the market.

So what become of the mill towns? Mass unemployment. As the native English had left the squalor of the terrace houses for the newly built suburbs a sharp racial divide has come about. Over the past 20/30 years these communities have become feertile ground for Islamists.

This is not good because they now provide the fuel for the far right. Thus far the situation is stable but my fear is if this sort of thing continues which is result of what they call political myopia - that is in a 5 year election cycle political governments make decisions on a narrow 5 year window even if the results 20 years down the road are disasterous.

Note I am also a son of a migrant although I was lucky that my father came to UK as lawyer wanting to do his post-graduate studies so I was fortunate to have a privilaged upbringing. But I have to look at the issue objectively for the sake of our future generations.

I often defend my community because I can't allow far right narrative to gain ground but the fact is wqe have to find a holistic solution for the sake of all. Note that in differant regions of UK the same pattern is repeated. It could b e Sikhs, Black Afro-Caribreans etc etc. All have their own particulat issues.

For instance Islamists might be a issue in the Pakistani areas but if you got to London where the Afro-Caribeans have their 'hood' shooting, stabbing, mugging is rage. 70% of London stabbing or shooting happens within this community.
With due respect i disagree and you have claims with contradiction, all examples you mentioned were driven by immigrants and you said in earlier post that all immigration should be stopped, so how those examples would work with France?
 

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I remember the 2 year yellow vest protest that no main stream media wanted to report. The french police behaved like savage violent animals. The violence and criminality the french state employed was shocking terrifying stuff. It made gezi in Turkey look like childs play.


Have the protests ended or are they still going?

Which "mainstream medias" are you talking about ? In France the yellow vest movement was widely covered as well as violence on BOTH sides. I don't care about what international medias have to say or think.

BTW,yellow vests weren't angels either on the 1st december of 2018 they literally turned Paris into a warzone and so Police has to resort to violence to STOP violence and restore order. If they were peacefull protesters the police/gendarmerie wouldn't have needed to bring in armored vehicles.
 

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@Vergennes Western Europe needs a frank, honest and open debate on migration. This subject will be the greatest challange the region will face over the next 50 years. Far greater then the threat from Islamism which always was overplayed.

Most migration is driven by pull and push factors. The greatest factor informing the push is population growth. The surplus created as deaths fall leads to a huge surge creating a massive pool of unemployed young men. In most parts of the world populations are now past the apex point on the graph. However Sub Saharan Africa is about to hit that point and over next 50 years will the source of massive waves of migration. In fact this haas already began. This wave will be sucked up the Sahara and leak into the Mediteranean through unstable countries primarily Libya which was destabilised by design.

This wave will and is washing on the shores of Southern Europe. How this is tackled will be crucial or it might as I fear lead to the chaos and rise of the far right as we saw in Europe of the 1930s.

Awesome contributions to the thread.

I would just like to add that islamophobia is on the rise ever since 9/11 and it's as you said thanks to immigration, but refugees plays even bigger role.

However I do not see West reflect on this and draw the right conclusions, I am generalizing here, but I mean, they're not going to reflect and admit their military involvements caused all the problems escalating.

In 60's "the West" sent invitation for guest workers, and they never left, but stayed. It is going to continue like that because some countries are talking about lack of manpower etc.

I also believe that the laws passed targetting minorities has contributed greatly to the problems.

@Vergennes Thanks for summing up the letter, I got the impression it was written by right-wing trying to appear patriotic.

I believe secularity is important for the benefit of a country and all it's citizens, and freedom of religion needs to be protected, not like how it was in Turkey where girls with headscarf weren't allowed entry to universities. Or now as in France and some others where you get a fine for wearing a headscarf.

I don't think it's good that a country like France who's one of the strong pillars of EU is in such state, but that is unfortunately what democracy is. You elect people they don't need to be competent or good leaders. There should be laws that prohibit people from running for office or senate and such.

e.g. in Denmark from now on a conviction even for speeding etc. will prevent you from gaining danish nationality, forever, but politicians who're corrupt and who get a conviction can still be elected. I think it's necessary to do a proper overhaul of western political systems.

 

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I remember the 2 year yellow vest protest that no main stream media wanted to report. The french police behaved like savage violent animals. The violence and criminality the french state employed was shocking terrifying stuff. It made gezi in Turkey look like childs play.


Have the protests ended or are they still going?

Good observation. I disagree with our French moderator. The police officers in France are well-known for their brutality and violence. They use excessive and unwarranted force on a daily basis and it hasn't changed anything. France hasn't turned into a safe heaven for its citizens despite the police beating every black/brown person in sight.

The issue isn't law enforcement, it's France' colonial past. Karma is a bitch.
 

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Good observation. I disagree with our French moderator. The police officers in France are well-known for their brutality and violence. They use excessive and unwarranted force on a daily basis and it hasn't changed anything. France hasn't turned into a safe heaven for its citizens despite the police beating every black/brown person in sight.

The issue isn't law enforcement, it's France' colonial past. Karma is a bitch.

I know right, the idea that the French state is soft is pure nonsense. The yellow vest protest that went on for over a year was pure brutality of the highest order. Most mainstream media barely covered it in Europe.

The way the french police were terrorising and kicking the absolute shit out the French citizens was harrowing. All i could think is if they are willing to do this to the native french, how must they treat their brown minorities.
 

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Good observation. I disagree with our French moderator. The police officers in France are well-known for their brutality and violence. They use excessive and unwarranted force on a daily basis and it hasn't changed anything. France hasn't turned into a safe heaven for its citizens despite the police beating every black/brown person in sight.

The issue isn't law enforcement, it's France' colonial past. Karma is a bitch.
I know right, the idea that the French state is soft is pure nonsense. The yellow vest protest that went on for over a year was pure brutality of the highest order. Most mainstream media barely covered it in Europe.

The way the french police were terrorising and kicking the absolute shit out the French citizens was harrowing. All i could think is if they are willing to do this to the native french, how must they treat their brown minorities.

If French police used the same methods on yellow vests as on "minorities" as you call them there would be no insecurity in areas mainly inhabited by "minorities". Sorry if my narrative isn't the same as portrayed on "TRT" or "anadolu agency".
 

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I think guys we have to look beyond the brutality or otherwise etc and take a hard, studied look at the fundamentals that are informing the concerns expressed by the generals. While this is France, in UK we also get simiiar, more 'subtle' utterings from certain quarters that point to exactly same directon.

To put it bluntly the issue is large scale demographic change in a very short time frame can endanger the cohesion of societies as the core is gnawed away. This is matter of genuine concern and needs looking at free from shouts of racism as that stifles any conversation on the matter.

The fundamental issue is the globe has become connected and nation states have to work together to create stability. A global solution is needed for global problems. The ongoing covid pandemic is reminder of this.

So for example tighten borders but please don't create political economic monopolies like EU or engage in wars that trigger off massive migration waves. If people look at migration waves you will see a correlation. Even the 1940s create waves of European refugees many of whom left European shores and went sailed sout east across the Mediteranean Sea to Palestine. Seventy years later The Syrian refugees crossed in exactly the reverse direction. Both waves were triggered by wars.

The second factor is economics. Maybe jobs should be taken to where the migrant pools are rather than them coming to Europe. A more equitable, fair trading order might help.
 

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I don't think the French military should step in while Kamala Harris and her neo-commies are in power in Washington. Especially not before striking a deal with them or black lives matter French version might happen.

And there is also another side to that debate I think some fractions of the French armed force which are pro-NATO and pro-US might be concerned about Macrons Russian policy. Racial tensions might be a good tool to get rid of Macron supporters. So bringing order + taking a harsh line against Russia might be the targets of such a move. Anti-Russian Kamala Harris and her crew can also be convinced with that approach.
 

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My own opinion is migration has to be 100% halted. Even no more asylums. Yes if a millionaire or doctor applies they should be considered. Along with this strict policy no more wars or intrusions abroad. Non.
You yourself are a Pakistani migrant, living in the UK, calling for all migration to be 100% halted...

What a joke, (if you can understand it, that is).
 

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What a joke, (if you can understand it, that is).
Yes. I made that clear.If your in a boat and 100s of others want to jump into it, would you egg them on? Thus causing the boat to sink, killing everybody. Or would you say "enough" and inisist on no more. As a child of migrants I don't want the boat to sink and taking all of us down. I would rather try and find other solutions. I suggested no more wars and a equitable trading order to offer opportunities across the globe thus mitigating the drivers of migration.
 

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E0fG1D_WUAIGTdY


The letter of the French generals warning President Macron with a threat of civil war remains on the country’s agenda. The discussions about the letter reopened the file of the "Operation Ronces", an operation which allegedly targets the Muslims in France.
 

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