Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[schuimpjes]

That's why they Made revised Blue Book as the effort to include Boramae project financing scheme

When the acquisition of KF 21 happen? Pre-2024 or after 2024?

 

[Madokafc]

When the acquisition of KF 21 happen? Pre-2024 or after 2024?

Looks like after 2028

 

[Captain Wales]

52id is fake true block 52. i wouldn't touch that thing with a stick especially if you're going to operate it until at least 2045

For air patrol fake block 52 is enough until 2045 (if we maintain it good and keep upgrade it).
we cannot rely solely on rafale and F-15 for regular patrol it going to make a dent on our wallet.


somewhat what @Umigami said below

For me prioritize rafale (36) and Eagle 2 (at least 1 squadron).

36+36 Vipers is Good but for Kohanudnas only.

F35 is a MUST, but we can wait.

make rafale and F15 (as 1st line fighter) do the fancy stuff and let F16 (as 2nd line) do the boring stuff.

 

[R4duga]

When the acquisition of KF 21 happen? Pre-2024 or after 2024?

those plane aren't done yet , expect the worst scenario to find some mishap or defect in the testing process/phase , and we need to "kucur" more money for optimization / improvement if such case happened .

 

[Gundala]

More or less.

Rightly or wrongly, we've learned that no countries are really our "friends". Whether the West, East, near or far.

Even today when things look quite 'clear-cut' - geopolitically speaking - we're still trying to maintain the status quo for ourselves. That makes us being seen either as a potential ally as well as potential enemy for each and every countries involved in the region.

Well said !!

so what has been said by Ananda in Defense Talk saying it is all foreign loan is not true. Minister of Planning talked about overall spending of defense equipment until 2024, so it is not specifically talking about foreign loan, it means the foreign loan taken will be less than 20 billion USD.

This is where you are dead wrong. All USD (US$) defence procurement using foreign loan has to go thru Bappenas and KemenKeu, and mindef is the one who made the decission how much, what type, when the assets is going to be purchased. Bappenas have no jurisdiction whatsoever if we talking about domestic loan/purchase using Rupiah. The APBN draw down can be used to purchase foreign assets/parts (ex: parts, services) using USD or other foreign currency but it has to be paid by cash not loan. This type of spending is under jurisdiction of each matra/TNI, kemenhan has no jurisdiction over it.

So when Bappenas talk about loan ceiling that means loan using foreign currency that most of time come from overseas so he is talking specifically about foreign loan and not domestic loan. Kemenkeu will decide the loan terms including interest, fees, etc, they can accept or reject the finance scheme and look for a better deal elsewhere outside the recommendation of OEM or nations.

As for the KF21 payment obligation it wont be using loan, it has to come directly from APBN. Why? each loan need underlying assets (jaminan), which in most cases the items/assets you going to get, inventory or sometimes account receivable. So I dont see a possibility of paying it with loan. If we talk about when KF21 need to be produced here and we get loan for machinery, working capital, etc, to produce the fighter itself then it is possible to get the loan as the assets plus the fighter produced can be used as undlying asset for the loan.

 

[NEKO]

I am just former middle schooler who usually bought siomay Bandung in front of my school

What a coincidence, me too!


But if the govt allocated $20 bil for alutsista purchase (2020 - 2024), we can get many things that its hard to imagine before. This may become the start of our shopping spree, ToT man we should get a lots of it.

 

[Madokafc]

What a coincidence, me too!


But if the govt allocated $20 bil for alutsista purchase (2020 - 2024), we can get many things that its hard to imagine before. This may become the start of our shopping spree, ToT man we should get a lots of it.

Actually would be more as the revised budget alocation still at the discussion of several Ministry. But to cope with the coming and already signed contract deals the 20 Billion US Dollar alocation lot is still decent number. The total number agreed verbally in principal (from the 125 Billion proposal of Mr 08) by MoF likely would be around Twice than that. As there is lot of whole list by the golden boy of Armed Forces branch (the Army) is still at draft and would be pushed in 2022 onward and most of them is premium stuff from US and European Union and there is some middle East stuff.

Btw the current time, Government pushed more on trade offset compared to lenghty process of ToT, including easy of access to European Union market for several of our critical products and Counter trade deal with US (our promise to do so still being noticed by Biden admin), Japan and Middle East, in which all of them would provide Indonesia with direct economy benefit far more beneficial to cope with current economy crisis caused by pandemic and to reach more target on Investment. This soft loan to acquire weapon system actually part of Government effort to mitigate economy crisis with joint efforts from like minded Countries. That's the biggest reason MoF and Presiden himself Made leeway for Mr 08 to pursue his Defense Economy negotiation.

 

[Gundala]

See this make me think that you have the privileges of knowing informations that are not available in open source, at least some informations.

What he is trying to say is prolly there is someone who involved in the latest F16 deal we had back then in 08 team now. If you remember we almost get another Sukhoi when F16 nyalip di tikungan terakhir (good decission imho). So his team can have lobby partner to get latest Viper block deal into motion and head to head with Rafale.

To be honest between Rafale and Viper I am down to whatever we going to get in the end. Tactically and operationally Viper is a better choice for AU, geopolitcally/strategically Rafalle prolly the best bet. There are some geopolitcal intrigue that has and still happening that made the Rafalle looks like a better choice, but only certain people or rank who can justify it. With that being said, there is this "book" only handful of people knows it exist that determine which one we are going to get. Looking at some leak informations spread across the board last time I am guessing they tighened the circle, thats why prolly those Fremm deals is out of radar.

One thing I know that Viper is still on the table, but there is very little chance we would take both Viper and Eagle together.

 

[Gundala]

Actually would be more as the revised budget alocation still at the discussion of several Ministry. But to cope with the coming and already signed contract deals the 20 Billion US Dollar alocation lot is still decent number. The total number agreed verbally in principal (from the 125 Billion proposal of Mr 08) by MoF likely would be around Twice than that. As there is lot of whole list by the golden boy of Armed Forces branch (the Army) is still at draft and would be pushed in 2022 onward and most of them is premium stuff from US and European Union and there is some middle East stuff.

Btw the current time, Government pushed more on trade offset compared to lenghty process of ToT, including easy of access to European Union market for several of our critical products and Counter trade deal with US (our promise to do so still being noticed by Biden admin), Japan and Middle East, in which all of them would provide Indonesia with direct economy benefit far more beneficial to cope with current economy crisis caused by pandemic and to reach more target on Investment. This soft loan to acquire weapon system actually part of Government effort to mitigate economy crisis with joint efforts from like minded Countries. That's the biggest reason MoF and Presiden himself Made leeway for Mr 08 to pursue his Defense Economy negotiation.

There is one card the our government has but not yet been activated, its called dana alokasi khusus
Best of luck in your upcoming project, that combine deal of latest viper + ex-gurun looks promising to strengthen our AU

 

[Madokafc]

Indonesia bought weapon system with line of credit from EU, US, UK Japan, SK and Middle East. In turn those partner would let Indonesia to push our products on their market and promote Investment from their countries to come to Indonesia (this all depend on how Indonesia seriously to attract Investment), while those Countries can keep their defense industry afloat with decent order, Indonesia is not much at the downside as they open their market and promote Investment to come to Indonesia, all the way Indonesia Armed Forces would be armed enough with modern arms to deter the nominal threat up North.

There is one card the our government has but not yet been activated, its called dana alokasi khusus
Best of luck in your upcoming project, that combine deal of latest viper + ex-gurun looks promising to strengthen our AU

This move much more better as not much burden for current budget and permit the expansion of Indonesia Armed Forces at some level

 

[schuimpjes]

dana alokasi khusus

OK, is it kind of hibah from Pemda? I'm suck at this kind of Government terminology.

 

[Parry Brima]

Not that i am against other fighter in Indonesia, naturally you just need to beaten down your competitor but with actual facts. There is reason why Super Hercules can got thorough the tender against the likes of A400 M , as fact is stated they are the most resilience design of multipurpose lifter aircraft ever exist. And i believe F16 V is one of the best workhorse type fighter from bunch out there as TNI AU already operated the legacy type of them and know them better, at the level of how F 15 Made other strike and air superiority fighter is pale in comparison of capability they have and profile of mission they had accomplished.

We heard this sales pitch countless times before. We don't need this. It sounds like afterthought anyway.

Ok, I'll make a very reasonable offer for you. We'll buy those 72 Falcons, but you have to give us the production license for F-16V. Full backing, full support, full guidance, full assistance, full responsibility for long-term (30-40 years). You'll teach and guide us from A-to-Z how to make formidable 4th-4.5th gen aircraft. The target is, the next F-16V (or whatever the next 4.5th gen you have) that we need, must be produced in-house.

We have been giving you a lot of money for decades. We would even give you a lot more money if we agree to this. Billions of dollars. That's people money. Our money. We've been feeding you. The average Indonesians who struggling with their daily life have been filing up your pockets. So this is the least that you can give us.

We don't even need your money. We only need your knowledge & expertise.

Deal?

 

[Umigami]

We heard this sales pitch countless times before. We don't need this. It sounds like afterthought anyway.

Ok, I'll make a very reasonable offer for you. We'll buy those 72 Falcons, but you have to give us the production license for F-16V. Full backing, full support, full guidance, full assistance, full responsibility for long-term (30-40 years). You'll teach and guide us from A-to-Z how to make formidable 4th-4.5th gen aircraft. The target is, the next F-16V (or whatever the next 4.5th gen you have) that we need, must be produced in-house.

We have been giving you a lot of money for decades. We would even give you a lot more money if we agree to this. Billions of dollars. That's people money. Our money. We've been feeding you. The average Indonesians who struggling with their daily life have been filing up your pockets. So this is the least that you can give us.

We don't even need your money. We only need your knowledge & expertise.

Deal?

Bold 1: for what?
The only significant order we gave them is falcon A/B in 80s. Block 25 upgrade and eMLU are kind of receh for them.

Korean have to buy more for something like that.

 

[Umigami]

@Parry Brima

Btw the current time, Government pushed more on trade offset compared to lenghty process of ToT, including easy of access to European Union market for several of our critical products and Counter trade deal with US (our promise to do so still being noticed by Biden admin), Japan and Middle East, in which all of them would provide Indonesia with direct economy benefit far more beneficial to cope with current economy crisis caused by pandemic and to reach more target on Investment.

More investment, kind of sad thou..

 

[Parry Brima]

@Parry Brima

More investment, kind of sad thou..

All Lockheed Martin needs to do is just print what I said, give it to the President, and say it loud and clear "This is our offer!".

Pretty sure he'd say yes

 

[Ravager]

We heard this sales pitch countless times before. We don't need this. It sounds like afterthought anyway.

Ok, I'll make a very reasonable offer for you. We'll buy those 72 Falcons, but you have to give us the production license for F-16V. Full backing, full support, full guidance, full assistance, full responsibility for long-term (30-40 years). You'll teach and guide us from A-to-Z how to make formidable 4th-4.5th gen aircraft. The target is, the next F-16V (or whatever the next 4.5th gen you have) that we need, must be produced in-house.

We have been giving you a lot of money for decades. We would even give you a lot more money if we agree to this. Billions of dollars. That's people money. Our money. We've been feeding you. The average Indonesians who struggling with their daily life have been filing up your pockets. So this is the least that you can give us.

We don't even need your money. We only need your knowledge & expertise.

Deal?

All Lockheed Martin needs to do is just print what I said, give it to the President, and say it loud and clear "This is our offer!".

Pretty sure he'd say yes

I wished things are that simple and clear cut as you presummed to be .
Even Sokor , Turkey and Japan had to bleeds deep just trying to earn that licensing grants . And they were allready acknowlegded as an Ally and bleeds their soldier for an american causes . We were never gonna earn the same treatment like them . It was that simple !!

 

[FPXAllen]

including easy of access to European Union market for several of our critical products

Just please, pretty please, take nickel off the table. It's one of few remaining strategic resources we have which will be far more beneficial for us in the long run if we're just keep sticking to our plan to make battery and EV vehicle production centers in here.

That is, unless some technological breaktrough happening in the near future that will only makes us lose our advantage.

 

[FPXAllen]

Just please, pretty please, take nickel off the table. It's one of few remaining strategic resources we have which will be far more beneficial for us in the long run if we're just keep sticking to our plan to make battery and EV vehicle production centers in here.

That is, unless some technological breaktrough happening in the near future that will only makes us lose our advantage.

Oh, and speaking about EVs - especially since this is a thread about Indonesian Air Force - we're heading for a future where electric passenger airplanes are going to be widely used, at least for ranges of 300 km and below. In military terms, while they won't replace conventional combat aircrafts which use fossil based fuels anytime soon, but the implication is clear especially if we're going to build more of our own UAV / UCAV after Elang Hitam.

 

[R4duga]

Oh, and speaking about EVs - especially since this is a thread about Indonesian Air Force - we're heading for a future where electric passenger airplanes are going to be widely used, at least for ranges of 300 km and below. In military terms, while they won't replace conventional combat aircrafts which use fossil based fuels anytime soon, but the implication is clear especially if we're going to build more of our own UAV / UCAV after Elang Hitam.

is EV passenger plane already a thing ? i thought hydrogen is going to be the next one before EV getting matured , the latest varian of Boeing Insitu Scaneagle 3 also proposed to use hydrogen .

 

[FPXAllen]

is EV passenger plane alredy a thing ? i thought hydrogen is going to be the next one before EV getting matured .

In the next two or three years, at least. While they will only be 9-12 seaters commuter-class airplane, but if the calculations in that video is not too far off the mark, then it will be quite profitable for their operators.

Granted, the example shown was in the US. But even if they won't arrive in Indonesia until the next decade at soonest, we can still 'ride' the wave by implementing electric techs into UAVs / UCAVs.