Analysis How Turkey canceled the advantage of the newly introduced Greek Rafale.

[TR_123456]

The biggest advantage of the Rafale is Meteor missiles which have much larger no escape zone than AMRAAMs. So if Rafales will keep distance they will win quote easily most of the engagements.

Why doesnt Israel use the Meteor missile?

 

[Kaptaan]

Awesome thread. It is true that knowing exactly the contours of the enemy platform and it's missile window will not by itself give you any advantage. But knowing that detailed information gives you the possibility to develop tactics and methods to counter those advantages. I have always found it annoying why Pakistan pawns away it's fighter pilots to other countries but now I can see the benefits. Those pilots will gather enormous knowledge of their flying steed.

That knowledge I am sure gets these guys a place at Combat Commanders' School of the PAF equivalent to US Top Gun to teach other pilots.

Combat Commanders' School - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kaptaan]

In the image below all of the guys on the front are PAF. One of them for sure has Rafale patch so I suspect he is detailed to the Qatari's. The other guy has JF-17 patch which is consistent with reports that PAF did not send F-16 squadron to the Anatolian Eagle exercises but instead a JF-17 squadron was sent.

 

[Ecderha]

Why doesnt Israel use the Meteor missile?

1. It is EU missile platform
2.They have to pay for it. An it is expansive product

Note:

1. If it was us missile product. Then israel would have not only product but also rights to change/update product without limitations
2. About payment they will get it for free. us taxpayer will pay and according the law passed with lobby support. They will get it as military support product

All aboves are Facts and that Why

 

[Huelague]

The biggest advantage of the Rafale is Meteor missiles which have much larger no escape zone than AMRAAMs. So if Rafales will keep distance they will win quote easily most of the engagements.

It’s the missile than and not the plan who win the match. Doesn’t matter who fired the missile.

 

[Huelague]

1. It is EU missile platform
2.They have to pay for it. An it is expansive product

Note:

1. If it was us missile product. Then israel would have not only product but also rights to change/update product without limitations
2. About payment they will get it for free. us taxpayer will pay and according the law passed with lobby support. They will get it as military support product

All aboves are Facts and that Why

Means what? Only EU members can buy/use it? If they will ever brought the missile abroad, than to Israel . Doesn’t matter how much it cost. The EU taxpayers (Germans in general) will pay the price . As they did with Germans submarines

 

[Ecderha]

Means what? Only EU members can buy/use it? If they will ever brought the missile abroad, than to missile . Doesn’t matter how much it cost. The EU taxpayers (Germans in general) will pay the price . As they did with Germans submarines

If you simply think in that way it is ok.

But you just ignored "Advatages" and throught them to trash. Above thing which I said it was planned and accomplished work. It is working strategy.
Nobody leading isreal will change direction as you just said as option it does not have enough weight. And that is why in reality that isreal does focus on us products as primary

 

[Huelague]

If you simply think in that way it is ok.

But you just ignored "Advatages" and throught them to trash. Above thing which I said it was planned and accomplished work. It is working strategy.
Nobody leading isreal will change direction as you just said as option it does not have enough weight. And that is why in reality that isreal does focus on us products as primary

It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact that Israel brought 4 submarines (Dolphin) from Germany and payed only the half price.

 

[Nilgiri]

There's a huge difference between qatari rafales and Indian rafales,matters nothing,everything is taken on to account while making a deal
@Nilgiri

Either extreme is faulty that suddenly some platform is made "garbage" or another version of it is fully "insular".

Combat master has made a good post earlier....things factor in and counter-factor in w.r.t wielder and opponent when opponent gets closer look at stuff than he otherwise would have.

It is non-ideal (and certain practical envelope USP is eroded of the platform for the wielder compared to before as I have described already)....but there is no real significant degradation in overall power level given the threat still manifests.

The opponent still has to project and account for huge amount of other variables too.

It is not like suddenly F-16s PAF has are all made garbage because India has worked at depth with Israel (especially on the detailed IP tech realm even), US and Singapore on the matter.

Geopolitically India has moved significantly from situation earlier in cold war where more insularity existed.

Any case, it (an AF) is very much a team, big deal of networking and own specific exercise regimens plays huge role in how an asset optimises within an AF compared to another AF situation.

India will develop its own set of ace up sleeve with Rafale (even if they are carbon copy with Qatari one which they are not) that cannot be gleamed simply by having access to some a/c flight+exercise time. The divergence in specific optimisations add to this on top.

It is why the MKI is not figured out (in some power level undermining way) by PAF simply by having access to Chinese flankers in exercises.

Think of what the other assets are in IAF for example that Qatar or opponent do not have. It is somewhat like how individual sportsperson will not be quite same if simply switched from one team (he has trained, grown experience and integrated far more with) to another with a very different setting.

AF's (and militaries more broadly) will always try to account for all of this too (aggressor training and wargaming), but there is limit to degree of how much can be modelled and figured out.

Resources to counter it (with actual asset + power level of own) at some significant way is another question altogether past that. This has been noticeably lacking with our opponent (mostly by their own hand) and the divide will only grow.

 

[500]

1. It is EU missile platform
2.They have to pay for it. An it is expansive product

Note:

1. If it was us missile product. Then israel would have not only product but also rights to change/update product without limitations
2. About payment they will get it for free. us taxpayer will pay and according the law passed with lobby support. They will get it as military support product

All aboves are Facts and that Why

Israel imports some 30 billion euro from EU each year, so price is obviously not a problem here. Europeans simply dont sell Meteors separately, they want to keep it as exclusive advantage of their platform (Typhoon and Rafale).

Israel relies on F-35 which have a huge advantage over any aicraft including Typhoon and Rafale with Meteor.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Missiles hit targets locked by radars and Meteor has some advantages over solid fuel missiles in terms of range, but you have to see a target before it hits it. The US is counting on the RCS advantages of its next-generation aircraft (F35~0,001m2, F22 ~0,0001m2, Rafale~1,25m2, Typoon ~1m2, Su35 ~2m2) over other parts of the world. Europe lagged behind of the US in terms of stealth technology, so they came up with missiles with superior "no escape zone" ranges and relatively similar radars with similar performance to their US equivalents. These are the tactical preferences of the Armies.

 

[Combat-Master]

The biggest advantage of the Rafale is Meteor missiles which have much larger no escape zone than AMRAAMs. So if Rafales will keep distance they will win quote easily most of the engagements.

Another advantage is that they can carry 2x SCALP cruise missiles as oppose to Mirage 2000 that can only carry one. Greece will improve their deep strike capabilities.

 

[LegionnairE]

Another advantage is that they can carry 2x SCALP cruise missiles as oppose to Mirage 2000 that can only carry one. Greece will improve their deep strike capabilities.
View attachment 25176

Yeah they clearly have the advantage in the air right now

To say that Turkey "cancelled" the advantage of the newly procured Rafale is misleading.

so, turks and pakistanies, made with one joint exercise whole greek and india air supremacy strategy garbage and full waste of money.
master stroke indeed and harsh reality check.

Well said

 

[Quasar]

what Greece gained by acquring Rafale is at most may be just a few youtube videos where we may see a Greek rafale at the 12 of a Turkish F 16 which will seldom occure in a real combat situation. My bet is on the nation who is developing her own layered air defence umbrella , Air to Air missiles including a ramjet one, unmaned AEW&C and turbo fan powered unmaned combat systems. My humble opinion is what the Turkish Air force interested the most in Rafale is its AESA and EW suit. Greece should hurry up otherwise in the near future what greece will face is a mixture of swarm of unmaned combat systems, Turkish vipers and manned and unmanned AEW&Cs with several EW patforms. while Greece is preparing for a war with old rules, Turkey is introducing totaly a new doctrine. but as last words we all hope peace will prevail.

 

[zio]

From anatolian exercise

 

[bisbis]

What advantage did Rafale planes have? Aesa radar, meteor missile? So, can Rafale's radar and missiles work with the F 16 Ehpod? No. They only dream.

 

[Ryder]

If people actually look into defence related stuff everybody would know there is no such thing as a God weapon.

People need to realise this.