TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

Rodeo said:

We're still eyeing F35?

"F-35 alone is not a capability against Turkey in the Aegean. Everyone needs to understand this. 'I will buy an F-35. Well? I will take care of everything.' I perceive this as an insult to the Turkish Armed Forces.

Also, we do not know what developments we will experience with our US friends regarding the F-35 tomorrow."

— Minister of National Defense Yaşar Güler | CNNTURK

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1786065898953973906

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They're just raising their hands to bargain. I don't think they have serious expectations.

Ecderha said:

This is the latest FACTs provided by usa as information about F35. All customers know it.

FACT 1:
" Each F-35 has locked source code for all the computer systems and EACH day it needs a code to be entered to permit the plane to operate.
Only the US and the sole level 1 partner ( like isreal ) can generate the codes needed.
This means that all the time purchasers of the F-35 remain US allies they can operate the F-35 using the supplied codes, BUT the US can Immediately cripple the F-35 fleet of any customer"

FACT 2:
In addition, to above next measure is that:
the United States does have certain security measures and protocols in place to protect sensitive technology and ensure that the use of such equipment aligns with mutual defense agreements.
F35 systems require routine and periodic preventive maintenance, and they SUFFER random breakdowns of components and parts.


FACT 3:
Turkiye is not PARTNER
Turkiye is not ALLY ( Ally as Uk, Isreal, Germany, Holland, Italy etc..)
Turkiye is special case for usa. Special like Turkiye is enemy which need to be Controled by usa. Special like there are obstacles for usa when come to region and Turkiye. So therefore usa apply (psudo Ally) policy. It is all depend what Turkiye try to do in region without obeying usa

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I think the only value in talking about wanting the F35 is to make the Americans think we may still chase purchasing their planes as a way to buy time against any hostile events, like not selling/delivering engines for our first KAANS. Because if they think you are done with them and their jets, they may just spite us with engine delivery's. You got to play a give and take game until you meet your objectives and incrementally limit your exposure to them.

From one of the major F-35 players to please give us the planes, "we are not interested anymore because it has problems", panics when the news came that Greece is purchasing it, to "we would like to get them", to...

All this F-35 situation is so dumb that I can't even find a word for it.

Start the goddamn law suite already, get the f*cking money and be done with it! Absolutely embarrassing!

With the f*ck ups Turkiye managed to achieve in the past 10 years in its foreign policy, not Hakan Fidan, but even the President of the Galactical Federation of Light wouldn't be able to deal with the stupidity.

Kartal1 said:

From one of the major F-35 players to please give us the planes, "we are not interested anymore because it has problems", panics when the news came that Greece is purchasing it, to "we would like to get them", to...

All this F-35 situation is so dumb that I can't even find a word for it.

Start the goddamn law suite already, get the f*cking money and be done with it! Absolutely embarrassing!

With the f*ck ups Turkiye managed to achieve in the past 10 years in its foreign policy, not Hakan Fidan, but even the President of the Galactical Federation of Light wouldn't be able to deal with the stupidity.

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Like there was a better way.

The F-35 is history for Turkey, and that's a good thing, because even if TAI KAAN is worse than the current F-35 block, you still have full control over it.
If I believe the rumors, the F-35 can only be launched with launch codes from the US, and the weapon systems can be deactivated remotely.
Then you don't need to invest any more time in this platform.
Just recently, the German frigate Hessen was in the Red Sea and wanted to shoot down a drone of unknown origin, which turned out to be a US drone, and what happened? They fired several US-made intelligent GPS-guided anti-aircraft missiles, all of which missed their target.
Since then, the Germans' heads have clicked.....but too late.
Nobody knows whether F-16 Block 70 could have similar barriers or not.

IC3M@N FX said:

Just recently, the German frigate Hessen was in the Red Sea and wanted to shoot down a drone of unknown origin, which turned out to be a US drone, and what happened? They fired several US-made intelligent GPS-guided anti-aircraft missiles, all of which missed their target.
Since then, the Germans' heads have clicked.....but too late.

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This is such a terrible rumor. This is not what happened.

IC3M@N FX said:

They fired several US-made intelligent GPS-guided anti-aircraft missiles, all of which missed their target.

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Dafuq?

Next time use radar guided or infrared homing anti-aircraft missiles and not GPS guided when trying to shot down flying target.

Use GPS guided missiles when targeting stationary ground target or planes/drones that is parked on the ground.

NEKO said:

Dafuq?

Next time use radar guided or infrared homing anti-aircraft missiles and not GPS guided when trying to shot down flying target.

Use GPS guided missiles when targeting stationary ground target or planes/drones that is parked on the ground.

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It could also be radar-guided missiles - the article doesn't say exactly, I may not remember, at least what was circulating as news at the time.
Afif says it wasn't like that, maybe he wants to enlighten us all as to what actually happened.
Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I read at the time that several of these missiles missed their target.

NEKO said:

Dafuq?

Next time use radar guided or infrared homing anti-aircraft missiles and not GPS guided when trying to shot down flying target.

Use GPS guided missiles when targeting stationary ground target or planes/drones that is parked on the ground.

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It is reported that they launched two SM-2 block IIIA's onto that drone. Those pack dual semi-active radar/infrared seekers.

F35 has become the German Car of the Jet world.

Formidable and one of the most advamced jets ever made in our lifetime but it has its fair share of problems and it costs you arm and a leg.

Premium Jet comes with premium prices. Either pay up or stick with your work horses.

Zafer said:

Like there was a better way.

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If F-35 was so bad that we didn't want it there was no need to pay for these planes, buy a Russian junk which costed us billions of $ so we can engage nothing more than aircraft, being prone to CAATSA and paying for the depot and maintenance of our aircraft which actually aren't ours, but we paid for them and we don't want them, but would like to receive them...

I remember pre-2016 how every defence enthusiast no matter of his political orientation was chest thumping how we are going to receive 100 F-35As and possible 16 F-35B, insisting that we would be dominating the skies of Athens with our F-35s and suddenly 15th of July came and F-35 became the worst aircraft in the world. How so? I can answer this question, but I don't want to initiate a political discussion. I would say only one thing in relation to this and this is that FETO is the worst thing happened to this country in its modern history and Fethullah Gulen didn't purchased these aircraft, but they were purchased with the green light of his local enablers. Turkiye joined this program in 2002.

Note: I don't say only this name that everyone is expecting me to say, because he is not the only one who ate the forbidden fruit of the US.

If we knew that F-35 had such "features" that would create vulnerabilities for the combat potential of the Turkish Air Forces then instead of triggering CAATSA and buying the Russian junk (ToT claimed, in reality no ToT at all), we should've dropped our F-35 purchases, stay in the program as a major supplier and buy Patriots, Aster 30s which just as the Russian S-400s were not going to come with a ToT, but we would've had an existing mediocre or even good capability in countering ballistic missiles which would've lightened our burden a bit in Iraq and we were going to have a real chance of establishing deterrence against Iran instead of pray day and night to Allah that they don't go crazy and bomb the sh!t out of our base in Bamerni or Bashiqah. We ended up paying billions for almost non-operational air defence system and not having any mean of countering ballistic missiles no matter of the type (SRBM or MRBM).

All this money and time could've been invested in KAAN and Hisar/Siper. The time and money invested in foreign products procurement to only be faced with open and covered embargos could have also be invested in national programs way earlier.

On your question: Yes, there was a better way and it is called "not serving a foreign interest". After the 15th of July event everyone received the message and I hope lessons are learned. The negative of this is that we are currently in a legal swamp.

Turkiye as a country of 75-80-85 million people deserved and deserves way better. Unfortunately the people which expressed these concerns were either killed in cold blood or put in prison on false accusations, of course with the help of the best prosecutor.

Only a couple days passed from the date on which the father of the MILGEM program, Admiral Ozden Ornek passed away in 2005. Despite the difficulties put before him, despite that he was put in prison by FETO and their enablers for that he wanted an independent Turkiye, today we are seeing the fruits of his work, we are proud of both the Ada corvette and TCG Anadolu, and just as in many similar cases while his fruits and the Armed Forces are used for political goals his name is not even remembered, as he was never alive and serving. The F-35 acquisition is also managed as a political process rather than a military acquisition project.

The Turkish Nation should not be in any way satisfied or delighted by the developments in our programs no matter if we talk about the F-35 acquisition, KAAN or any other product. We should be thankful to the engineers working day and night for their contribution to the independence of this country, because they are the ones who posses the ability to "undo" the previous mistakes and actually do it. We should always expect more!

F-35 process together with its negatives is an inheritance of another vision for the country and its geopolitical position that was adopted by the political decision makers and a certain wing from within the Armed Forces. We can't get a time machine and go back in time so we return as nothing wrong happened, but we must at least manage the diplomatic and legal processes concerning the F-35 program and our participation in a better way. I expect a firm position on this from our officials and not the current performance. We know that our MoFA is weighting different options, but it is time to decide. Do we want these planes or we want our money? If you ask me, with the current state of KAAN I would get the money and invest it in its development. We expect a delivery in 2028 with a foreign engine and currently we are almost at the middle of 2024. If we want our money then we should start the legal process as soon as possible so we can get back our money and invest it in our national capabilities on time. To sue the US is a long process. While our defence industry made huge leaps in all realms we still have important gaps to fill and this money for sure will be appreciated.

Kartal1 said:

If F-35 was so bad that we didn't want it there was no need to pay for these planes, buy a Russian junk which costed us billions of $ so we can engage nothing more than aircraft, being prone to CAATSA and paying for the depot and maintenance of our aircraft which actually aren't ours, but we paid for them and we don't want them, but would like to receive them...

I remember pre-2016 how every defence enthusiast no matter of his political orientation was chest thumping how we are going to receive 100 F-35As and possible 16 F-35B, insisting that we would be dominating the skies of Athens with our F-35s and suddenly 15th of July came and F-35 became the worst aircraft in the world. How so? I can answer this question, but I don't want to initiate a political discussion. I would say only one thing in relation to this and this is that FETO is the worst thing happened to this country in its modern history and Fethullah Gulen didn't purchased these aircraft, but they were purchased with the green light of his local enablers. Turkiye joined this program in 2002.

Note: I don't say only this name that everyone is expecting me to say, because he is not the only one who ate the forbidden fruit of the US.

If we knew that F-35 had such "features" that would create vulnerabilities for the combat potential of the Turkish Air Forces then instead of triggering CAATSA and buying the Russian junk (ToT claimed, in reality no ToT at all), we should've dropped our F-35 purchases, stay in the program as a major supplier and buy Patriots, Aster 30s which just as the Russian S-400s were not going to come with a ToT, but we would've had an existing mediocre or even good capability in countering ballistic missiles which would've lightened our burden a bit in Iraq and we were going to have a real chance of establishing deterrence against Iran instead of pray day and night to Allah that they don't go crazy and bomb the sh!t out of our base in Bamerni or Bashiqah. We ended up paying billions for almost non-operational air defence system and not having any mean of countering ballistic missiles no matter of the type (SRBM or MRBM).

All this money and time could've been invested in KAAN and Hisar/Siper. The time and money invested in foreign products procurement to only be faced with open and covered embargos could have also be invested in national programs way earlier.

On your question: Yes, there was a better way and it is called "not serving a foreign interest". After the 15th of July event everyone received the message and I hope lessons are learned. The negative of this is that we are currently in a legal swamp.

Turkiye as a country of 75-80-85 million people deserved and deserves way better. Unfortunately the people which expressed these concerns were either killed in cold blood or put in prison on false accusations, of course with the help of the best prosecutor.

Only a couple days passed from the date on which the father of the MILGEM program, Admiral Ozden Ornek passed away in 2005. Despite the difficulties put before him, despite that he was put in prison by FETO and their enablers for that he wanted an independent Turkiye, today we are seeing the fruits of his work, we are proud of both the Ada corvette and TCG Anadolu, and just as in many similar cases while his fruits and the Armed Forces are used for political goals his name is not even remembered, as he was never alive and serving. The F-35 acquisition is also managed as a political process rather than a military acquisition project.

The Turkish Nation should not be in any way satisfied or delighted by the developments in our programs no matter if we talk about the F-35 acquisition, KAAN or any other product. We should be thankful to the engineers working day and night for their contribution to the independence of this country, because they are the ones who posses the ability to "undo" the previous mistakes and actually do it. We should always expect more!

F-35 process together with its negatives is an inheritance of another vision for the country and its geopolitical position that was adopted by the political decision makers and a certain wing from within the Armed Forces. We can't get a time machine and go back in time so we return as nothing wrong happened, but we must at least manage the diplomatic and legal processes concerning the F-35 program and our participation in a better way. I expect a firm position on this from our officials and not the current performance. We know that our MoFA is weighting different options, but it is time to decide. Do we want these planes or we want our money? If you ask me, with the current state of KAAN I would get the money and invest it in its development. We expect a delivery in 2028 with a foreign engine and currently we are almost at the middle of 2024. If we want our money then we should start the legal process as soon as possible so we can get back our money and invest it in our national capabilities on time. To sue the US is a long process. While our defence industry made huge leaps in all realms we still have important gaps to fill and this money for sure will be appreciated.

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Thank you for going through the trouble of writing up but circumstances never lay out a clear picture where you can see what path and decision is the best. It is a constant bickering between loyals of Türkiye and rivals that no matter what you do they come up with some counter offense to curb you from doing the best moves. The money spent by Türkiye on the F35 program is peanuts when compared to losses that would be sustained if we were still in the program. So no I wouldn't follow a different path in the face of all that we have been through. We are already better off doing what we have been doing as any other move would be counteracted by enemies so that we don't benefit from it. There is no path for us where we leave our destiny in the hands of hostiles in disguise of allies.

Zafer said:

Thank you for going through the trouble of writing up but circumstances never lay out a clear picture where you can see what path and decision is the best. It is a constant bickering between loyals of Türkiye and rivals that no matter what you do they come up with some counter offense to curb you from doing the best moves. The money spent by Türkiye on the F35 program is peanuts when compared to losses that would be sustained if we were still in the program. So no I wouldn't follow a different path in the face of all that we have been through. We are already better off doing what we have been doing as any other move would be counteracted by enemies so that we don't benefit from it. There is no path for us where we leave our destiny in the hands of hostiles in disguise of allies.

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I am not arguing about if we should get back in the program or no. I personally prefer to invest heavier in KAAN. I am just expressing my dissatisfaction with the way how our diplomats and officials are handling the process. I am concerned by the fact that we don't have a clear roadmap on what and when we should achieve in our struggle. This is not a minor issue. We are talking about 1.4 billion dollars which can be invested in something else instead. This is our money and it is currently in the hands of the US.

Kartal1 said:

I am not arguing about if we should get back in the program or no. I personally prefer to invest heavier in KAAN. I am just expressing my dissatisfaction with the way how our diplomats and officials are handling the process. I am concerned by the fact that we don't have a clear roadmap on what and when we should achieve in our struggle. This is not a minor issue. We are talking about 1.4 billion dollars which can be invested in something else instead. This is our money and it is currently in the hands of the US.

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We certainly will not give up our invested money in the F35 program but there maybe opportunities down the road where we get the return of our money in many different ways. So we can postpone a payback but we keep the account open.

A crazy theory, but what if Turkey deliberately provoked their ejection. The F-35 program costs an insane amount of money and rumor has it that they don't have total control over the aircraft, Turkey has gained very significant technology knowledge through this program without which TAI KAAN would not even be possible in its current form. I know it's totally crazy, but what if they have lulled the USA into a sense of security with the advance payment and the orders with a complicated gagging agreement. In order to get out of it, they asked the USA for PATRIOT air defense systems including technology transfer, which the USA refused and they made a deal with the Russians to get S-400 and nobody knows how much know-how was transferred to improve their own air defense system.
The USA was forced to throw Turkey out of the program, at least from their point of view. The money from 4-5 F-35s is gone, but if you compare it with what they got, things look different again.
As I said, the theory is very hair-raising, but suddenly you have two technology carriers that you were missing.

They excluded Türkiye from the F35 program upon request by Israel and they failed to foresee that Türkiye can make even a better plane all by itself. At the end they are bound to lose their air superiority to Türkiye in just a few short years.

IC3M@N FX said:

A crazy theory, but what if Turkey deliberately provoked their ejection. The F-35 program costs an insane amount of money and rumor has it that they don't have total control over the aircraft, Turkey has gained very significant technology knowledge through this program without which TAI KAAN would not even be possible in its current form. I know it's totally crazy, but what if they have lulled the USA into a sense of security with the advance payment and the orders with a complicated gagging agreement. In order to get out of it, they asked the USA for PATRIOT air defense systems including technology transfer, which the USA refused and they made a deal with the Russians to get S-400 and nobody knows how much know-how was transferred to improve their own air defense system.
The USA was forced to throw Turkey out of the program, at least from their point of view. The money from 4-5 F-35s is gone, but if you compare it with what they got, things look different again.
As I said, the theory is very hair-raising, but suddenly you have two technology carriers that you were missing.

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Even if such decision was made there are more elegant ways of doing it. From my perspective this is just a poorly managed process as many other poorly managed processes in the foreign policies of Turkiye post 2013.

As an engineer would say a big machine is controlled trough small, perfectly timed corrections. People in the marine and aviation industry would understand me perfectly. Turkiye is not a small machine either, but in the recent years we see how this machine's movement is often controlled trough a poorly timed 180o degrees corrections. And despite the aggressive piloting the machine is somehow still going relatively good. This is only a proof that the engineer behind it did a good job, but the pilots should really understand that nothing is eternal.

In the context of our foreign policy, the F-35 process included, I think that one of the "new pilots" in the name of Hakan Fidan may have the potential to ease the piloting on the "machine" and give the "passengers" a smoother ride. He already has his successes and also some controversial moves, but it is still early to talk for sure. I just hope for the best.

Turkey's F-35 fighter jet procurement still on the table. Not sure if this was already posted.

Afif said:

It's not about supercruise, that is not a requirement. It's about platform maturity across the domains. In which KAAN block 10 is not comparable with F35 block 4.

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Be specific brother.

It is easy to use intangible sentences like "platform maturity across the domains" and "sensor fusion". Which at the end of the day are just fancy american sales tricks to make customers overpay for the F-35s. F-35 is not even a combat ready platform TODAY, with over 2/3 of the aircrafts unable to complete required combat missions, what "maturity across domains" are you talking about?

Agha Sher said:

Be specific brother.

It is easy to use intangible sentences like "platform maturity across the domains" and "sensor fusion". Which at the end of the day are just fancy american sales tricks to make customers overpay for the F-35s. F-35 is not even a combat ready platform TODAY, with over 2/3 of the aircrafts unable to complete required combat missions, what "maturity across domains" are you talking about?

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Right, let me get back to you in a hour.


*For 'maturity' I am talking about IOC and FOC in the operational sense.

*Sensor fusion is not American sale tricks. In fact, it is F35's one of the most defining and defined aspect that has been shared in details.



The next step in fusion technology was to combine the output of multiple sensor tracks into a blended system solution. By blending the tracks from two or more sensors, the resultant system track accuracy approached the accuracy of the best parameter of the contributing sensors. For example, blending tracks from a radar and an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor could have the range and range rate accuracy of the radar along with the angle and angle rate accuracy of the IRST. However, the accuracy of the resultant track remains limited by the track’s update rate. If the track’s update rate (fusion rate) is larger than the measurement’s rate, then there is a loss of accuracy, even with optimal algorithms [13].

US 5th Generation aircraft are designed to process the sensor measurements rather than the sensor tracks, resulting in an integrated system track containing the most precise track accuracy and enabling cooperative sensing across aircraft. Measurement-level processing can provide earlier discovery of objects in the environment that are hard to detect. By processing the measurement-level data, the system can use detections from any sensor (or aircraft) to confirm a track before any single sensor can make the declaration. The focus on the measurement data rather than track data also means that combat ID information from a sensor is retained by the system track, even when the track is no longer in the sensor’s field of view since the system track can be maintained by other sensors or aircraft.

In addition to improved accuracy and detection performance, the introduction of an Autonomous Sensor Management capability provided the ability to react and refine objects in the environment much faster than any human could respond [14]. The addition of the Autonomous Sensor Manager is referred to as Closed Loop Fusion. This capability provides the fusion process a feedback loop to coordinate the actions of the sensors in a complementary way to detect, refine, and maintain tracks based on system priorities [15]. The sensor management capability evaluates each system track, determines any kinematic or ID needs, assesses those needs according to system track prioritization, and cues the sensors to collect the required information. Analogous to John Boyd’s Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act (OODA) Loop [16], which expressed the engagement advantage related to the pilot’s ability to understand and react to an adversary, closed loop fusion accelerates the ability of the pilot to understand and respond to an object in space faster and often at a much greater range than legacy systems.



The F-35 Information Fusion design isolates fusion algorithms from both the sensor and datalink inputs, as well as any consumers of fused data. Essentially, the fusion algorithms comprise a black box, known internally as the fusion engine, and sensor inputs and data consumers are encapsulated in external software objects known as virtual interface models (VIMs). For incoming data, the sensor-specific or datalink-specific VIMs fill in missing data (e.g., navigation state, sensor bias values), preprocess the information, and translate it into a standard form for the fusion process. For data leaving fusion, the outgoing VIM, known internally as the fusion server, provides data to the various consumers of fused information, both onboard and off-board. The fusion server isolates users of the fused information from both the fusion process and data sources. Legacy fusion implementations reported fusion tracks as a monolithic block (i.e., one size fits all) where all data consumers received the same message. Any propagation of the data or conversion was the responsibility of the recipient. This created a coupled interface between fusion and the data consumers. When a new data source was introduced to fusion, the interface changes to make this data available impacted all consumers of that message, whether the data was used or not, making changes to fusion very costly. The fusion server sends each information consumer a tailored message that contains only the information required to support that consumer. This isolates that consumer from changes to any data source or to the fusion algorithm. The use of VIMs enables the fusion architecture to be extensible to new sensors and data sources, as well as new data consumers, over its lifetime.

Information Tiers

“Sensor fusion can result in poor performance if incorrect information about sensor performance is used: A common failure in data fusion is to characterize the sensor performance in an ad hoc or convenient way. Failure to accurately model sensor performance will result in corruption of the fused results.” [17] One of the key architecture decisions for F-35 fusion is how to share information among aircraft. Independent data can be incorporated optimally into a filter for the highest accuracy. However, if dependent data is incorporated under the assumption of independence, the result will be track instability and, eventually, track loss [18]. Data consumers on the F-35, including the pilot, receive the kinematic and ID estimate of each track based on all available data sources, both onboard and off-board. This is referred to as the Tier 3 solution. However, when sharing information with other aircraft, each F-35 shares the information describing a track based solely on measurements from onboard sensors. This is referred to as the Tier 1 solution. By ensuring that the information received from MADL is independent, the track information can be converted into equivalent measurements [19] by the recipient supporting both track-to-track and
measurement-to-track of the information. The sharing of Tier 1 data ensures that the information is not coupled to any specific fusion algorithm and provides a method for dissimilar fusion platforms to share optimal fusion data in the future (Fig. 5). In late 2016, Lockheed Martin and the U.S. government used this technique to share an F-35 fused track of a target drone across MADL to a surface-based weapons system that had no line of sight to the drone. The surface-based weapons system converted the F-35 MADL Tier 1 information into equivalent measurements that were consumed by the native engagement tracker. Together, the networked systems achieved a successful acquisition, guidance, and kinematic intercept of the track using a surface-to-air missile.



There are more details on Evidence-Based Combat Identification, autonomous sensor management and cooperative sensing, including the operative equations in the article below.



They have provided as much details possible on the system architecture, and functionalities without getting into classified stuff.

On the other hand, with KAAN or Chinese 5th gen platform none of its clear for now. They just say the words like sensor fusion, AI, etc. However without providing any basic information on the system's architecture and functionalities.

The reason people doubt the degree of J20 or KAAN's sensor fusion (at this point) and whether it is comparable to latest F35, is because it took decades even for US to develop a sensor fusion engine like that in the JSF. Despite having the most expertise and spending the most resources. Now others coming along the line and just claiming, oh we have the best sensor fusion too, without providing any comparable infos and details is not convincing enough.

Both in case of KAAN and J20, until there more details available on the architecture type and the functionalities of fusion engine of each platform, their comparability with F35 will be justifiably doubted. Mere broad claims are not good enough here.

That's why I am suggesting to wait until the later blocks of KAAN are operational before directly comparing it to the latest F35 block 4.