TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

Heartbang

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Block 30 will start in 2032. Entire 4 years after Greeks get their stealth F-35s.
The F-35 orders are backed up the wazoo. not to mention all the jets (100+ airframes) who sit vacant in LockMart's parking lot due to the block-4 upgrade woes. Greeks getting their F-35s in 2028 is a pipe dream at best.

(not to mention the potential of political tensions in the aftermath of the 2024 elections... The F-35 plant is in Texas after all.)
 

Ahlatshah

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KAAN block 10 is 4++ aircraft. Realistically speaking, it ain't gonna effectively challenge F35 block 4 which is Greece is getting. Wait for KAAN block 30 with indeginous stealthier engine, higher degree of sensor fusion and potentially new BUFRIS.(?)
Block 30 will start in 2032. Entire 4 years after Greeks get their stealth F-35s. While our 2028 batch 4.5th gen KAANs are supposed to be at the level of Vipers and Rafales of Greeks. The moment Greeks get enough F-35s and stealth cruise missiles I am 99% sure they will declare 12 miles (19.31 km) territorial water. Then we will be doomed with not enough stealthy KAANs.
You may not believe capabilities of TSK, which is ok but that yellow line very sad and impulsive even for not optimistic me.

If WE got those F35s against Greece, then it would be a real game changer. Because we invested heavily and for years to network centric warfare. But for Greece I dont think so. They dont have infrastructure right now and you can not form this overnight. They have 151 F16s and those only 30 of them have link 16, what do they do with censor fusion. I am not saying F35s ar not threat, definitely is and a huge one, but for them they are like stealth Rafael.

Btw, I think we should stop stone vs. stone comparisons. War does not work that way
 

Radonsider

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The F-35 orders are backed up the wazoo. not to mention all the jets (100+ airframes) who sit vacant in LockMart's parking lot due to the block-4 upgrade woes. Greeks getting their F-35s in 2028 is a pipe dream at best.

(not to mention the potential of political tensions in the aftermath of the 2024 elections... The F-35 plant is in Texas after all.)
TR-3's are still not delivered to USAF and will be delivered in 2026 (optimistic from USAF perspective) let alone Block 4.


There is no realistic way of Greece recieving F-35's before 2030s
 

Agha Sher

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Right, let me get back to you in a hour.


*For 'maturity' I am talking about IOC and FOC in the operational sense.

*Sensor fusion is not American sale tricks. In fact, it is F35's one of the most defining and defined aspect that has been shared in details.

View attachment 68242

The next step in fusion technology was to combine the output of multiple sensor tracks into a blended system solution. By blending the tracks from two or more sensors, the resultant system track accuracy approached the accuracy of the best parameter of the contributing sensors. For example, blending tracks from a radar and an infrared search and track (IRST) sensor could have the range and range rate accuracy of the radar along with the angle and angle rate accuracy of the IRST. However, the accuracy of the resultant track remains limited by the track’s update rate. If the track’s update rate (fusion rate) is larger than the measurement’s rate, then there is a loss of accuracy, even with optimal algorithms [13].

US 5th Generation aircraft are designed to process the sensor measurements rather than the sensor tracks, resulting in an integrated system track containing the most precise track accuracy and enabling cooperative sensing across aircraft. Measurement-level processing can provide earlier discovery of objects in the environment that are hard to detect. By processing the measurement-level data, the system can use detections from any sensor (or aircraft) to confirm a track before any single sensor can make the declaration. The focus on the measurement data rather than track data also means that combat ID information from a sensor is retained by the system track, even when the track is no longer in the sensor’s field of view since the system track can be maintained by other sensors or aircraft.

In addition to improved accuracy and detection performance, the introduction of an Autonomous Sensor Management capability provided the ability to react and refine objects in the environment much faster than any human could respond [14]. The addition of the Autonomous Sensor Manager is referred to as Closed Loop Fusion. This capability provides the fusion process a feedback loop to coordinate the actions of the sensors in a complementary way to detect, refine, and maintain tracks based on system priorities [15]. The sensor management capability evaluates each system track, determines any kinematic or ID needs, assesses those needs according to system track prioritization, and cues the sensors to collect the required information. Analogous to John Boyd’s Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act (OODA) Loop [16], which expressed the engagement advantage related to the pilot’s ability to understand and react to an adversary, closed loop fusion accelerates the ability of the pilot to understand and respond to an object in space faster and often at a much greater range than legacy systems.

View attachment 68243

The F-35 Information Fusion design isolates fusion algorithms from both the sensor and datalink inputs, as well as any consumers of fused data. Essentially, the fusion algorithms comprise a black box, known internally as the fusion engine, and sensor inputs and data consumers are encapsulated in external software objects known as virtual interface models (VIMs). For incoming data, the sensor-specific or datalink-specific VIMs fill in missing data (e.g., navigation state, sensor bias values), preprocess the information, and translate it into a standard form for the fusion process. For data leaving fusion, the outgoing VIM, known internally as the fusion server, provides data to the various consumers of fused information, both onboard and off-board. The fusion server isolates users of the fused information from both the fusion process and data sources. Legacy fusion implementations reported fusion tracks as a monolithic block (i.e., one size fits all) where all data consumers received the same message. Any propagation of the data or conversion was the responsibility of the recipient. This created a coupled interface between fusion and the data consumers. When a new data source was introduced to fusion, the interface changes to make this data available impacted all consumers of that message, whether the data was used or not, making changes to fusion very costly. The fusion server sends each information consumer a tailored message that contains only the information required to support that consumer. This isolates that consumer from changes to any data source or to the fusion algorithm. The use of VIMs enables the fusion architecture to be extensible to new sensors and data sources, as well as new data consumers, over its lifetime.

Information Tiers

“Sensor fusion can result in poor performance if incorrect information about sensor performance is used: A common failure in data fusion is to characterize the sensor performance in an ad hoc or convenient way. Failure to accurately model sensor performance will result in corruption of the fused results.” [17] One of the key architecture decisions for F-35 fusion is how to share information among aircraft. Independent data can be incorporated optimally into a filter for the highest accuracy. However, if dependent data is incorporated under the assumption of independence, the result will be track instability and, eventually, track loss [18]. Data consumers on the F-35, including the pilot, receive the kinematic and ID estimate of each track based on all available data sources, both onboard and off-board. This is referred to as the Tier 3 solution. However, when sharing information with other aircraft, each F-35 shares the information describing a track based solely on measurements from onboard sensors. This is referred to as the Tier 1 solution. By ensuring that the information received from MADL is independent, the track information can be converted into equivalent measurements [19] by the recipient supporting both track-to-track and
measurement-to-track of the information. The sharing of Tier 1 data ensures that the information is not coupled to any specific fusion algorithm and provides a method for dissimilar fusion platforms to share optimal fusion data in the future (Fig. 5). In late 2016, Lockheed Martin and the U.S. government used this technique to share an F-35 fused track of a target drone across MADL to a surface-based weapons system that had no line of sight to the drone. The surface-based weapons system converted the F-35 MADL Tier 1 information into equivalent measurements that were consumed by the native engagement tracker. Together, the networked systems achieved a successful acquisition, guidance, and kinematic intercept of the track using a surface-to-air missile.

View attachment 68244

There are more details on Evidence-Based Combat Identification, autonomous sensor management and cooperative sensing, including the operative equations in the article below.



They have provided as much details possible on the system architecture, and functionalities without getting into classified stuff.

On the other hand, with KAAN or Chinese 5th gen platform none of its clear for now. They just say the words like sensor fusion, AI, etc. However without providing any basic information on the system's architecture and functionalities.

The reason people doubt the degree of J20 or KAAN's sensor fusion (at this point) and whether it is comparable to latest F35, is because it took decades even for US to develop a sensor fusion engine like that in the JSF. Despite having the most expertise and spending the most resources. Now others coming along the line and just claiming, oh we have the best sensor fusion too, without providing any comparable infos and details is not convincing enough.

Both in case of KAAN and J20, until there more details available on the architecture type and the functionalities of fusion engine of each platform, their comparability with F35 will be justifiably doubted. Mere broad claims are not good enough here.

That's why I am suggesting to wait until the later blocks of KAAN are operational before directly comparing it to the latest F35 block 4.

Brother, all this things are nice on paper but they don't work in reality.

in 2024, 50% of USAF F-35s were unable to conduct any meaningful combat missions. on a global level nearly 70% of all F-35s have significant deficiencies and cannot be considered combat ready.

The US is even struggling with the F-35 Block 3 upgrade. LM has messed up and F-35 is unlikely to receive combat ready clearance before 2026. Let's not even talk about Block 4.

They overengineered and overcomplicated the F-35. The end result is a product that largely does not live up to its promises. The US military complex bled the US government/western governments dry by selling them an overengineered and overcomplicated product.

In conclusion, the F-35 has nice and futuristic features/capabilities on paper. In reality, they don't work or underperform.



 

Heartbang

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The US is even struggling with the F-35 Block 3 upgrade.
Just a small correction: they are struggling with the F-35 Technology refresh-3 upgrade.
Which is the prerequisite step to the block-4 upgrade.
 

YeşilVatan

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In conclusion, the F-35 has nice and futuristic features/capabilities on paper. In reality, they don't work or underperform.
While I agree that availability and maintenance is a huge problem, you have to concede that F-35 is a freaking monster when it works. If you even have only one fleet battle ready, it can make a huge difference. Not accepting that would be to delude ourselves.

With all the crazy computing power it has, I believe US can improve a lot with loyal wingman concept to offset the problems with F-35. A lot of the workload that overcomplicate that plane can be outsourced to drones.

Now, I don't think they will go that route without encountering a serious problem. Current structure of American MIC and acquisition process is heavily geared towards absolutely milking the budget to produce wunderwaffe. They wouldn't do a serious course correction without a scandal or something. Their problem is organizational in essence, not technical.

And there is still the possibility of US somehow overcoming the problem by throwing money at it. More production, more streamlining, improvements to the reliability of the plane etc. My opinion is; there is still a pretty good chance they can do this.
 

IC3M@N FX

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They have to manage it, the background of the F-35 is and was to produce an aircraft that would provide the Air Force, Navy and perhaps even other branches of the US armed forces with a combat aircraft that would replace the F-16/F-15/F18 and partly the F-22 (it is getting its own successor NGAD) as an all-in-one solution in the long term in order to save costs and to standardize maintenance and repair in all branches of the armed forces and abroad (NATO). The idea behind it is very good, but the implementation is difficult because each of these branches of the armed forces have different requirements for the aircraft or want what they cannot deliver. This aircraft is a compromise because the government no longer wants to provide each of its branches with its own aircraft, which would be even more expensive.
 

Ryder

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They have to manage it, the background of the F-35 is and was to produce an aircraft that would provide the Air Force, Navy and perhaps even other branches of the US armed forces with a combat aircraft that would replace the F-16/F-15/F18 and partly the F-22 (it is getting its own successor NGAD) as an all-in-one solution in the long term in order to save costs and to standardize maintenance and repair in all branches of the armed forces and abroad (NATO). The idea behind it is very good, but the implementation is difficult because each of these branches of the armed forces have different requirements for the aircraft or want what they cannot deliver. This aircraft is a compromise because the government no longer wants to provide each of its branches with its own aircraft, which would be even more expensive.

F35 was made to do everything the F15, F16, FA18 and the A10 can do.

Also make a plane for all the branches like the Airforce, Navy and Marines.

Now this where the problem starts as they try to make the F35 do everything while the Airforce, Navy and the Marines all have different requirements.

F35 right now is like a Alfa Romeo. Beautiful and does its job when it has to do but inside it is broken and flawed not to mention expensive to maintain.
 
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TheInsider

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Greeks getting the F-35 doesn't make them take full advantage of it. They need to invest in command centers, mission planning, datalinks, training/simulation, maintenance, logistics, data science etc. Turkiye started investing in those from the early 2000s. The US, Israel, Italy, UK and Turkiye(if we can get it) are the only countries right now that can use the F-35 to the fullest.

What happens when Greek F-35 needs engine maintenance Greeks will send it to the nearest F-35 engine maintenance center and wait for it. What happens when F-35 needs its RAM changed? We know it needs RAM change rather frequently. It is 20 F-35s and 20 F-35s that you can't utilize to the fullest. Mission planning for F-35s are inherently different. If you use them like F-16 or Rafeles you are not doing it right. Without strong networks, the F-35 can't provide a multiplier effect. Currently, the Greek Armed Forces are stuck in the 80s and 90s buying stand-alone modern assets off the shelf won't change that.
 

IC3M@N FX

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Greeks getting the F-35 doesn't make them take full advantage of it. They need to invest in command centers, mission planning, datalinks, training/simulation, maintenance, logistics, data science etc. Turkiye started investing in those from the early 2000s. The US, Israel, Italy, UK and Turkiye(if we can get it) are the only countries right now that can use the F-35 to the fullest.

What happens when Greek F-35 needs engine maintenance Greeks will send it to the nearest F-35 engine maintenance center and wait for it. What happens when F-35 needs its RAM changed? We know it needs RAM change rather frequently. It is 20 F-35s and 20 F-35s that you can't utilize to the fullest. Mission planning for F-35s are inherently different. If you use them like F-16 or Rafeles you are not doing it right. Without strong networks, the F-35 can't provide a multiplier effect. Currently, the Greek Armed Forces are stuck in the 80s and 90s buying stand-alone modern assets off the shelf won't change that.
Don't worry Uncle Sam is sponsoring that too thanks to the Greek Diaspora.
The Americans have long had no say in their own country, either they are Greeks, Jews or Armenians who have realized they can rise to the top 10000 of the country to exert influence in the country through corporate businessmen and patrons.
The other immigrants are all blockheads who have not understood.
 

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