TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

[Khagan1923]

Information for thought: does Turkey need or does not need an F35?

"The Arabs refused American fighters."

The United Arab Emirates does not intend to resume negotiations on the purchase of fifth-generation F-35 fighter jets from the United States, regardless of the outcome of the American presidential election, Reuters reported, citing a UAE government official.
“Our position remains unchanged and we do not expect discussions on the F-35 to resume in the foreseeable future, regardless of the outcome of the upcoming US elections,” said an unnamed Emirati government official, - writes Haqqin az.

Who cares what the Arabs are doing? Are they in NATO? Are their neighbors arming themselves to the teeth? Also if tomorrow the Americans said okay all of them would be running to give them billions for a handful of F-35 even second hand from the USAF


The Air Force has pushed for a return to the program for years now. The Navy was planning on possible procuring F-35B for Anadolu and its then planned sister ship, Trakya. Even now I’m sure if a return happens we will see F-35B on the planned AC.

Not only have we lost a force multiplier for 6 years but also the experience that would have been gained with an actual 5th gen aircraft in inventory.

not even gonna talk about the benefits Kaan would have seen and the financial benefits for our companies.

 

[Iskander]

Who cares what the Arabs are doing? Are they in NATO? Are their neighbors arming themselves to the teeth? Also if tomorrow the Americans said okay all of them would be running to give them billions for a handful of F-35 even second hand from the USAF


The Air Force has pushed for a return to the program for years now. The Navy was planning on possible procuring F-35B for Anadolu and its then planned sister ship, Trakya. Even now I’m sure if a return happens we will see F-35B on the planned AC.

Not only have we lost a force multiplier for 6 years but also the experience that would have been gained with an actual 5th gen aircraft in inventory.

not even gonna talk about the benefits Kaan would have seen and the financial benefits for our companies.

You're right.
It is strange that the UAE, which is not a NATO member, has more opportunities than Turkey.
They can return at their own request, they can buy Rafales from the French, they can buy Eurofighters, Chinese, Russian...
Unfortunately, Turkey doesn't have that many options.
And not everything depends on finances. Turkey's foreign policy is what it's all about. S400 is just an excuse.
I suspect that if there were no S 400, the United States could have demanded that Turkey abandon the KAAN as a condition for returning to the F35 project

 

[Sanchez]

You're right.
It is strange that the UAE, which is not a NATO member, has more opportunities than Turkey.
They can return at their own request, they can buy Rafales from the French, they can buy Eurofighters, Chinese, Russian...
Unfortunately, Turkey doesn't have that many options.
And not everything depends on finances. Turkey's foreign policy is what it's all about. S400 is just an excuse.
I suspect that if there were no S 400, the United States could have demanded that Turkey abandon the KAAN as a condition for returning to the F35 project

They can't return at their own request. Emiratis paid millions to lobby for F-35 access and was told no. Then they updated their outlook and got closer to China and increased cooperation with Korea(and again with Turkey). It's a country that straddled the lines much better than we were able to, that is the primary reason they exist and are basically soaring in the new world order.

I suspect that if there were no S 400, the United States could have demanded that Turkey abandon the KAAN as a condition for returning to the F35 project

Turkey would still be in JSF if there was no S-400. Still strained relations, but it would be a part of it. That's not how US operates. They would ask to "contribute" to the project with more workload, making themselves a part of it and having a say in its full development cycle, like KF-21. As things stand, greater American involvement into the project will end when national engine is developed.

 

[Radonsider]

Turkey would still be in JSF if there was no S-400

doubt

 

[Saithan]

I see some peoples approach are selective and don't see the bigger picture. Either because they're busy with their own POV or just swapped their arses with their heads.

We should not move S400 to Incirlik, keep it where it is, use it or fiddle with it, whatever.

We should continue onwards to BRICS and see how it goes, and should not do anything to jeapordize that trip. Our so called allies will do anything to sabotage. We do not need dumb remarks for any for or against F35 or S400.

Our government can't seem to play poker, so it's best to just place west on standby/drag it out and deal with the problems south (Syria and Iraq).

While we develop our own projects. If you want proof of good will order the fucking Hürjet engines and be done with it. No less than 90.

Since we don't seem to have any good cards in our hands they will give us nothing, not even hürjet engine.

did we order 6 Ordered F35A ? I do not believe that was what we ordered, and delivered does not mean delivered. It was on US soil and that is why they kept the fucking things.

Do not use the term delivered unless it's landed in Türkiye, even if that is a technical term for the shit they're pulling. The Türkish Pilots should have been told to fly those F35 outside of US, before RTE made the deal on S400 and screwed us over.

It they were ours then it should have been possible, but there was a scared shit who used his ass to think with.

 

[Lool]

Not only is the S400 yet another foreign made system, its Russian made. We have to rely on Russia for even maintenance, what will that look like if they are actively needed in a case of war? Will the S400 do any good against Russian aircraft threatening Turkish troops in syria?

Just like how the S400 is a foreign system, so is the F35. Just because you produce some F35 parts doesnt mean that it is either domestic or independent from Western sanctions/whims that could cripple the plane. Moreover, I agree, the S400 wont do any good against the Russian forces but so is the F35 in the fact that it wont do any good against Western/USA forces. In Syria, you arent fighting against Russia only but the US as well mate

Our Akincis and TB2s arent flying in iranian airspace striking pkk targets now, are they?

And the F35 wont be flying in Iranian airspace to strike pkk targets as well. So again, what is the bloody use of the F35 then

Assad and Iran are the two most active threats at the moment. At least whilst Russia is still preoccupied in Ukraine. Both directly and indirectly harbor pkk terrorists and are hostile towards Turkish interests.

The most active threat to Turkey in Syria isnt Russia but the US. The greatest supplier of intelligence, AD systems, artillery systems, and armored vehicles to the PKK is the US and not Russia. Moreover, it is the US that sells Syrian oil and gives a portion of the profit to those pkk fqers

The F-35 is a proven offensive capability which can be used to deter enemies.

Where? And when?
When was the F35 used against a country with a decent AD system to proclaim such statements?

The S-400 has proven its inability in Ukraine

So is the patriots and every other defence system
As long as the enemy carries out wave attacks, then any AD system will crumble

AD systems arent perfect and we saw that clearly on both sides during thr Ukrainian war

 

[Saithan]

@Lool and @RMZN guys, you are just repeating yourself and continuing in your own little spirals. I do not see your tussle being constructive at all.

Please broaden your view a bit and calm down. I think it's beneficial to think wisely and move slower on somethings than hurrying along. Just remember how fast RTE condemned Sisi and then he had to shake his hand in the end.

No need for Sisi to say anything, the whole fucking world knows how RTE licked what he spat. Now that is a sweet victory for Sisi.

 

[TheInsider]

We should reject the deal and propose that the S-400 won't be deployed to the same military bases or near F-35s and this is the best and final offer.

 

[dBSPL]

The F35 project first became a major barrier against the idea of joint production of combat jets with Europe. Thanks to Americanist politicians. Years later, using the defense relationship with Russia(which is not a voluntary relationship but the result of US dragging) as an excuse and taking advantage of the fact that the Turks had missed the train of partnership with European countries in the field of aviation, Turkiye was excluded from this program(I think it's the first example on this scale), which is important for its national defense, and turned into an instrument of discipline. In fact, if we consider with the CAATSA sanctions starts a little bit earlier, discouraging Turkiye from pursuing an independent foreign policy that asserts its sovereignty/national interests and consenting to US political interventions, especially in the Middle East(East Med, Syria-Iraq, Israel), were among the tools used.

It seems that the US is resorting to this instrument again. This time with a different decision, but ultimately with the same purpose.

 

[Ryder]

Everytime arguments boil down which is weapon system trash.

If people have learnt one thing about the Russia vs Ukraine war that both systems is not a wonder weapon and both NATO and Russian Weapon systems have their short comings. Nato maybe much more advanced than Russian system. Despite being advanced has not given Ukraine the turn point it needs to turn the war around.

War also showcased Russia's short comings regarding their own weapon systems who believed they were ahead of or on par with NATO.

 

[RMZN]

We have Kızılelma and Anka3 coming up in the stealth department. Iran, Syria and even Russia are not hard to deal with. We need weapons to deal with the hard ones and we are making them.

The F-35 has a far greater payload capability than Anka3. It will take many more years to design bigger and more advanced engines to scale up such projects. Meanwhile Kizilelma is more of a stealthy fighter jet rather than bomber.

Yet we are stuck in Syria against Assad and Russia, whilst we dont even lift a finger against the Iranian threat. Instead he current Government helps them to bypass sanctions to fill their own pockets. Iranian backed militias openly threatened to commit terrorist attacks in Istanbul, no different from the pkk or isis. They are unironically are a bigger threat to us than they are to israel. Because unlike with Israel, they can easily slip through Turkeys border.

The F-35 simply poses a bigger deterrent to potential adversaries than the S-400 does.

 

[YeşilVatan]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Ukraine is not the best showcase to determine how suitable weapons systems are for Turkish Armed Forces. That conflict is fought basically without any side having air superiority. Any conflict we go in will probably not be an aerial tug-of war. It's going to be air dominance for either us or the enemy.

Let's consider the red teams in scenarios and how a hypothetical F-35 procurement will affect them. I'll grade it in terms of sustainability, impact, cost-effectiveness.

1- PKK in Iraq.

• Low sustainability due to F-35 maintenance being a horror show.
• Low impact due to existing aircraft adequately handling the job so far.
• Low cost-effectiveness because it's pricey.

2- PKK in Syria

• No sustainability due to US cutting spare parts or even locking software because they are allied to terrorists.
• Low impact due to existing aircraft adequately handling the job so far.
• Abysmal cost-effectiveness because Americans will never let us use it in that theatre anyways, billions for nothing.

3- Greece (including overflights and geopolitical pissing contest stuff)

• Low sustainability due to high probability of US embargos, also can be used to strong-arm Turkey into policy positions they wish.
• High impact because Greeks will at least be deterred by it. They at least won't have a "they weak now, attack!" moment, which is important against irrational actors such as the greek state.
• Moderate to high cost-effectiveness as even planes sleeping in the hangar serves the main purpose.

4- Iran proxies

• Moderate sustainability due to high probability of a strong US support in a hypothetical conflict.
• Moderate impact because existing aircraft mostly being adequate when dealing with militias, major upgrade on SEAD/DEAD, which is a serious increase in capabilities.
• Moderate cost-effectiveness. It gives us a solid capability, but for a lot of money.

5- US

• lol

So as you see, F-35's main function would not be over the battlefield, but to:

• Deter over-eager Greeks with reconquista fantasies (they absolutely exist and occupy high positions in the greek state).
• Do the heavy lifting whean SEAD'ing Iranian proxies.
• Acquisition of know-how from just using it. Then applying some aspects to KAAN, no need to reinvent wheel.
• Strengthening NATO ties. Yes, they are trying to partition our country. Yes, we have to play this game. No, we can't nuke DC, stop reading Metal Fırtına.
• Possibility of buying F-35Bs for TCG Anadolu. That ship deserves its fighter squadron.

See how little actual fighting factors into it?

 

[Zafer]

The F-35 has a far greater payload capability than Anka3. It will take many more years to design bigger and more advanced engines to scale up such projects. Meanwhile Kizilelma is more of a stealthy fighter jet rather than bomber.

Yet we are stuck in Syria against Assad and Russia, whilst we dont even lift a finger against the Iranian threat. Instead he current Government helps them to bypass sanctions to fill their own pockets. Iranian backed militias openly threatened to commit terrorist attacks in Istanbul, no different from the pkk or isis. They are unironically are a bigger threat to us than they are to israel. Because unlike with Israel, they can easily slip through Turkeys border.

The F-35 simply poses a bigger deterrent to potential adversaries than the S-400 does.

That is because a threat somewhere is an ally somewhere else.

We have our own stealth, we don't need somebody else's.

 

[RMZN]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Ukraine is not the best showcase to determine how suitable weapons systems are for Turkish Armed Forces. That conflict is fought basically without any side having air superiority. Any conflict we go in will probably not be an aerial tug-of war. It's going to be air dominance for either us or the enemy.

Let's consider the red teams in scenarios and how a hypothetical F-35 procurement will affect them. I'll grade it in terms of sustainability, impact, cost-effectiveness.

1- PKK in Iraq.

• Low sustainability due to F-35 maintenance being a horror show.
• Low impact due to existing aircraft adequately handling the job so far.
• Low cost-effectiveness because it's pricey.

2- PKK in Syria

• No sustainability due to US cutting spare parts or even locking software because they are allied to terrorists.
• Low impact due to existing aircraft adequately handling the job so far.
• Abysmal cost-effectiveness because Americans will never let us use it in that theatre anyways, billions for nothing.

3- Greece (including overflights and geopolitical pissing contest stuff)

• Low sustainability due to high probability of US embargos, also can be used to strong-arm Turkey into policy positions they wish.
• High impact because Greeks will at least be deterred by it. They at least won't have a "they weak now, attack!" moment, which is important against irrational actors such as the greek state.
• Moderate to high cost-effectiveness as even planes sleeping in the hangar serves the main purpose.

4- Iran proxies

• Moderate sustainability due to high probability of a strong US support in a hypothetical conflict.
• Moderate impact because existing aircraft mostly being adequate when dealing with militias, major upgrade on SEAD/DEAD, which is a serious increase in capabilities.
• Moderate cost-effectiveness. It gives us a solid capability, but for a lot of money.

5- US

• lol

So as you see, F-35's main function would not be over the battlefield, but to:

• Deter over-eager Greeks with reconquista fantasies (they absolutely exist and occupy high positions in the greek state).
• Do the heavy lifting whean SEAD'ing Iranian proxies.
• Acquisition of know-how from just using it. Then applying some aspects to KAAN, no need to reinvent wheel.
• Strengthening NATO ties. Yes, they are trying to partition our country. Yes, we have to play this game. No, we can't nuke DC, stop reading Metal Fırtına.
• Possibility of buying F-35Bs for TCG Anadolu. That ship deserves its fighter squadron.

See how little actual fighting factors into it?

Meaning we get more bang for our buck compared to having useless S-400s standing around. Also the fact that we get a close look at the most modern and advanced jet used by our potential adversaries. Which is why Israel lobbied so strongly against Turkeys participation in the F-35 program.

 

[RMZN]

That is because a threat somewhere is an ally somewhere else.

We have our own stealth, we don't need somebody else's.

And we arent abandoning our domestic projects by basically trading in S-400s for F35s. After all we have our own domestic AD Network in development. We already got a close enough look at how the S-400 functions, why not do the same with the F-35? At least then we gain some kind of profit from this whole dilemma.

 

[Huelague]

We should reject the deal and propose that the S-400 won't be deployed to the same military bases or near F-35s and this is the best and final offer.

If all S-400 systems are active, they can cover whole country. No escape zone for F-35. Another option would be North Cyprus.

 

[Rooxbar]

You're right.
It is strange that the UAE, which is not a NATO member, has more opportunities than Turkey.
They can return at their own request, they can buy Rafales from the French, they can buy Eurofighters, Chinese, Russian...
Unfortunately, Turkey doesn't have that many options.
And not everything depends on finances. Turkey's foreign policy is what it's all about. S400 is just an excuse.
I suspect that if there were no S 400, the United States could have demanded that Turkey abandon the KAAN as a condition for returning to the F35 project

The planes were literally delivered 99%. Our pilots were training until the last day. If there was any clandestine plan decided from before the S-400s became an issue, they wouldn't just let our air force know so much about it, giving production of critical parts, single crystal tot, letting our pilots know the plane so much, etc.

 

[Zafer]

And we arent abandoning our domestic projects by basically trading in S-400s for F35s. After all we have our own domestic AD Network in development. We already got a close enough look at how the S-400 functions, why not do the same with the F-35? At least then we gain some kind of profit from this whole dilemma.

Because they wıon't let us lay oıur hands on them on the cheap.

 

[Ryder]

Interesting seeing the cons and pros of the F35 and the S400.

Both are formidable in their own way.

If the S400s wont be used its best to sell it to Azerbaijan as they will utilise it

The problem is will Turkiye get its prized F35s both A and B? Turkiye is literally jumping through hoops to get The Typhoon, F35 and the F16V. Turkiye is also jumping through hoops to get into the EU.

 

[AzeriTank]

one question,
if F35 is that much stealth, why they dont use it in Yemen? 10th UAV has been down just recently