TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

TheInsider · Jun 28, 2025

BTW, let me leave this here. If we adjust the cost according to inflation, a single F-35 costs 17,128,959 $ to maintain per year. 40 F-35 costs over 685 million $ per year.

boredaf · Jun 29, 2025

IC3M@N FX said:
In this context, it is not a question of actively procuring Chinese or Russian engines or bringing about a strategic realignment, but solely of securing a backup plan for the worst-case scenario—a scenario in which Western supply chains remain permanently blocked and no alternative is available.

Mate, you might not think that, but going and buying Chinese or Russian engines would be a realignment, whether you call it that or not, there is simply no other way anyone would view it and if you truly believe they wouldn't, I've got a bridge to sell you.

IC3M@N FX said:
In such a transition scenario, Russian or Chinese engines would also be technically capable of temporarily taking over this role. This is expressly not a matter of a preferred or strategically desired partnership, but rather a safeguard in an extreme emergency should all Western options remain permanently blocked.

Again nobody would see it as a safeguard. We would be giving a shotgun in the hands of those who already hate us, and tie the hands of those who are on our side with something as ridiculous as this. You're confusing your perspective with how it would be seen on geopolitical stage.

IC3M@N FX said:
The Chinese (or Russian) engines are not a proactively pursued option, but merely a strategic fallback solution in extreme cases.

They are not, you just want to believe they are. I feel like you didn't actually read what I wrote before. Whether their output is similar or not, you can't just take an engine and put it in a plane and be done with it. We didn't design Kaan with a Russian or Chinese engine in mind, and we are not making our engine with them in mind either. We have decades long experience in Western engines, built in logistics and supply lines.

IC3M@N FX said:
think you may have overlooked an important aspect of geopolitics—and I don't mean that in a reproachful way. Russia and China are definitely pursuing the strategic goal of pulling Turkey further out of Western spheres of influence.

Sorry but this is bullshit. Russia has been our enemy for hundreds of years, we fought in multiple proxy wars against them just in this last decade. If they could, they would attack us without a second thought; in fact, if it hadn't been for NATO, Soviets would've definitely tried long before they collapsed. And China is just an opportunist loan shark, looking for countries to put into indentured servitude. Sure, I would trust them more than Russian but that is only because China, at least for now, doesn't really care about what's outside of their immediate surroundings and lack the power projection.

IC3M@N FX said:
This is evident, among other things, in the fact that China offered Turkey an air defense system in the past—an offer that was ultimately not pursued due to pressure from the US.

Mate, that is because barely anybody buys any military system from China. And most of those that do can only do it on credit. It was just business and you're reading into it.

IC3M@N FX said:
Russia's offer and sale of S-400 missiles also supports this view.

That was a fucking blackmail and nothing else, that single purchase fucked us over more than anything else in decades.

IC3M@N FX · Jun 29, 2025

We should not be under any illusions: if the US, or rather Israel, decides not to deliver the F110 engines for political or strategic reasons, or to delay delivery further, then they simply will not deliver them.
They are under no obligation whatsoever to provide us with these engines. That is precisely why it is negligent from a security policy perspective not to have a reliable Plan B or C in place.

Without these engines, there is a risk of a serious delay in the development of the TAI KAAN – possibly until 2032, or in the worst case even until 2034/35. This is an enormous delay in a project of strategic importance. The TEI TF-35000 is undoubtedly an ambitious and important project, but realistically, it will not be ready for series production and reliable operation until the mid-2030s. Until then, we need a functioning interim solution. A modern fighter jet cannot be flown with good intentions or provisional ideas – and certainly not without a suitable engine.

We should also maintain a realistic view of international partnerships. States act primarily on the basis of their own interests. Friendship or partnerships are an illusion in international politics – this applies to the West just as much as it does to Russia or China. Anyone who is historically aware knows that many of today's NATO partners did not hesitate in the past to question our national integrity, and have done so again in the recent past, as evidenced by NATO partners' support for the PKK/YPG and FETÖ.

Turkey has only a handful of reliable partners, including Azerbaijan, Pakistan and, under certain conditions, Qatar and some Turkic states.
Beyond that, most of our foreign policy relationships are based on mutual benefit, not loyalty or friendship.
That is precisely why we must make our strategic decisions soberly, regardless of whether we are dealing with Western or Eastern actors. Trust is good, but security is better.

TR_123456 · Jun 29, 2025

IC3M@N FX said:
We should not be under any illusions: if the US, or rather Israel, decides not to deliver the F110 engines for political or strategic reasons, or to delay delivery further, then they simply will not deliver them.
They are under no obligation whatsoever to provide us with these engines. That is precisely why it is negligent from a security policy perspective not to have a reliable Plan B or C in place.

Without these engines, there is a risk of a serious delay in the development of the TAI KAAN – possibly until 2032, or in the worst case even until 2034/35. This is an enormous delay in a project of strategic importance. The TEI TF-35000 is undoubtedly an ambitious and important project, but realistically, it will not be ready for series production and reliable operation until the mid-2030s. Until then, we need a functioning interim solution. A modern fighter jet cannot be flown with good intentions or provisional ideas – and certainly not without a suitable engine.

We should also maintain a realistic view of international partnerships. States act primarily on the basis of their own interests. Friendship or partnerships are an illusion in international politics – this applies to the West just as much as it does to Russia or China. Anyone who is historically aware knows that many of today's NATO partners did not hesitate in the past to question our national integrity, and have done so again in the recent past, as evidenced by NATO partners' support for the PKK/YPG and FETÖ.

Turkey has only a handful of reliable partners, including Azerbaijan, Pakistan and, under certain conditions, Qatar and some Turkic states.
Beyond that, most of our foreign policy relationships are based on mutual benefit, not loyalty or friendship.
That is precisely why we must make our strategic decisions soberly, regardless of whether we are dealing with Western or Eastern actors. Trust is good, but security is better.

Times have changed,they have no other choice but to deliver those engines.
They know there is no use in delaying the obvious,it will backfire.

Sanchez · Jun 29, 2025

Sanchez said:
3 years later and they still don't know the most basic tenets of political system of our largest defence partner, or he simply don't understand it and his mind can't comprehend it. It's not up to Trump whether Turkey gets F-35s or not.

Barrack was reminded that US President Donald Trump had previously conveyed the impression that he had good intentions in re-introducing Turkey to the F-35 program, and when asked, "Is there a process that will contribute constructively to bilateral relations regarding the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) and the F35 issue?" he replied, "Yes, absolutely yes."

Stating that F16s and F-35s are indispensable elements of NATO ally Türkiye, Barrack reminded that most of the F35 parts are manufactured in Türkiye.

Noting that Türkiye paid for the F16s and their modernization, Barrack shared anecdotes about the period when CAATSA sanctions were imposed on Türkiye.

The ambassador pointed out that the F35 issue had been discussed for a long time and said that the parties wanted to "leave this issue behind."

"The US Congress is ready to look at the issue again. President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan also say that a 'new beginning' should be made." Barrack said, "(F35 and CAATSA sanctions) In my opinion, President Trump and President Erdoğan will tell Secretary Rubio and Secretary of State Fidan, 'finish this, find a way.' Congress will support a logical outcome. Therefore, I believe that we have the opportunity to reach a solution by the end of the year."

Barrack made the following statements regarding F35 and CAATSA sanctions:

"In the next few months, you will see a new meeting between our two leaders and our two foreign ministers, a renewal of the bilateral agenda, all these issues that have been discussed for five years. Things like F35, F16, S400s, sanctions, customs duties are secondary elements of our mission. I think for the first time, the US and Türkiye have a commitment to 'let's be partners that act together' instead of just being defense partners."

The ambassador said regarding the F35 issue, "Therefore, I believe that it is possible to reach a solution by the end of the year."

ABD'nin Ankara Büyükelçisi Tom Barrack, AA'ya konuştu

Ankara Büyükelçisi ve ABD'nin Suriye Özel Temsilcisi Tom Barrack, "Yakın gelecekte Gazze’de bir ateşkes göreceğimizi düşünüyorum." dedi. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

I still see a lots of wishful thinking here accepting congress to be logical for starters, so let's see. I'll follow up the rest in Foreign Policy thread.

IC3M@N FX · Jun 29, 2025

TR_123456 said:
Times have changed,they have no other choice but to deliver those engines.
They know there is no use in delaying the obvious,it will backfire.

The current US stance on supplying the F110 engine to Turkey remains in limbo. Although there are isolated positive signals, there is still no binding and clear decision – neither a clear commitment nor an official rejection.

This strategic vagueness is no coincidence, but rather the expression of a deliberate policy: Turkey is to be kept in the dark in order to strategically limit its ability to act without having to formally assume responsibility. But this is precisely where the security policy risk lies.

If this stance continues until the TAI KAAN prototype is scheduled to enter series production – expected in 2028/29 with F110 engines – there is a real danger that political or legal pretexts will be used at the last minute to refuse delivery altogether. This would set the program back significantly in technical terms and delay operational readiness considerably – possibly until 2032, or in the worst case until 2034/35, i.e., until the domestic TEI TF-35000 becomes available.

This delay would have considerable strategic implications:

Air superiority deficit: By then, countries such as Greece and Israel are expected to have a substantially higher number of fifth-generation fighter jets.

Turkey may not have sufficient capacity to effectively counter this technological advantage in the period 2028–2035.

Long-term lag: Even if production started immediately after 2035, it would be difficult to close the gap by 2040, even at maximum production capacity.

Samba · Jun 29, 2025

IC3M@N FX said:
We should not be under any illusions: if the US, or rather Israel, decides not to deliver the F110 engines for political or strategic reasons, or to delay delivery further, then they simply will not deliver them.
They are under no obligation whatsoever to provide us with these engines. That is precisely why it is negligent from a security policy perspective not to have a reliable Plan B or C in place.

Without these engines, there is a risk of a serious delay in the development of the TAI KAAN – possibly until 2032, or in the worst case even until 2034/35. This is an enormous delay in a project of strategic importance. The TEI TF-35000 is undoubtedly an ambitious and important project, but realistically, it will not be ready for series production and reliable operation until the mid-2030s. Until then, we need a functioning interim solution. A modern fighter jet cannot be flown with good intentions or provisional ideas – and certainly not without a suitable engine.

We should also maintain a realistic view of international partnerships. States act primarily on the basis of their own interests. Friendship or partnerships are an illusion in international politics – this applies to the West just as much as it does to Russia or China. Anyone who is historically aware knows that many of today's NATO partners did not hesitate in the past to question our national integrity, and have done so again in the recent past, as evidenced by NATO partners' support for the PKK/YPG and FETÖ.

Turkey has only a handful of reliable partners, including Azerbaijan, Pakistan and, under certain conditions, Qatar and some Turkic states.
Beyond that, most of our foreign policy relationships are based on mutual benefit, not loyalty or friendship.
That is precisely why we must make our strategic decisions soberly, regardless of whether we are dealing with Western or Eastern actors. Trust is good, but security is better.

One of the plans could be removing engines from f16s and use them in Kaan....

Spitfire9 · Jun 29, 2025

IC3M@N FX said:
The current US stance on supplying the F110 engine to Turkey remains in limbo. Although there are isolated positive signals, there is still no binding and clear decision – neither a clear commitment nor an official rejection.

This strategic vagueness is no coincidence, but rather the expression of a deliberate policy: Turkey is to be kept in the dark in order to strategically limit its ability to act without having to formally assume responsibility. But this is precisely where the security policy risk lies.

Sounds like the best risk reduction move is to get that order for Eurofighter through. Turkiye can add more if US blocks KAAN engine supply or TF35000 looks likely to be much delayed. US is no longer Europe's friend or ally, so if Trump tries to stop Eurofighter supply to Turkiye, Europe may refuse to concede. Releasing the imprisoned political rival would help. Dictators are not popular with north Europeans.

Ahlatshah · Jun 29, 2025

Samba said:
One of the plans could be removing engines from f16s and use them in Kaan....

Unfortunately, it doesnt work that way. Not technically, but as a matter of law and politics:

F110 engines are in the scope of ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations). You bought these engines to be used for f16s. Removing from F16s and using in Kaan like exporting these engines to another country.

You have to have permission from USA in order to do it. Otherwise you couldnt get single screw from USA for F16s ever again. Not the mention political implications, or militarily feasable or not.

Believe me, you would be better off using Russian engines, which you could explain the reasons, more or less. But you can never explain the other option to anyone. Especially, to as bigoted as Americans

PS: Source

https://ntma.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ITAR-Guidance.pdf

Slayer · Jun 29, 2025

Comparing Turkiye to Iran goes to show how much you know about Turkiye, our history and culture.
And this "hard beat" to teach us us our real ability - what the hell does that even mean?

You obviously have a hard on for Turks and Turkiye. We can help you with that. We have a saying in Turkish "Adami Sikerler". Learn it.

BalkanTurk90 · Jun 29, 2025

harris said:
Turkey is just like iran full of big mouth with nothing

A hard beat will teach you know your real ability

Yes i am aslo afraid of war between turkiye vs israel that could destroy entire Turkish naval fleet and airbases by israeli . Thats strategic mistake that Turks make from 2002 until now . Even if we have 400 f35 we cant use them agaist israel .
Thats why i was agaist f35 since forever and pro to produce every weapon made in Turkiye .
The problem is not that Izrael is powerful but the kind of how israel is made(and acts) its like israel = western countries .
They have unlimited money and tech from western area .
The only solution is to make Turkiye militaristic country kind like nort / south korea.
The only solution for today until 15 years is that during war we can march 5 million soldiers in syria and fight israel in its borders and pray we can pressure israel to accept our conditions . After 15 years , our airforce , navy will be too powerful even for china or US to attack us , if everything go as planned ...

IC3M@N FX · Jun 29, 2025

Don't pay any attention to Harris.

A key problem with the TAI KAAN's engine issue is that not just any alternative can be used. The aircraft design was specifically developed around the dimensions, weight, and performance characteristics of the General Electric F110 engine (or the future TEI TF-35000). This means that the choice of possible replacement engines is extremely limited.

The reality of modern fighter aircraft development is that the engine is not adapted to the aircraft – the aircraft is built around the engine.
This means that any significant difference in length, diameter, center of gravity, or thrust characteristic has a direct impact on the structure, cooling, weight distribution, and overall flight dynamics.

In this respect, the Chinese WS-10C/D is currently the only realistic alternative that comes close to replacing the F110 in terms of the key parameters – diameter, weight, engine suspension. Although the WS-10 is slightly longer than the F110, this could be compensated for structurally, for example by extending the fuselage in the engine area without completely changing the overall aerodynamic design.

All other engines – whether from Russia, Europe, or other countries of origin – either differ too greatly in terms of dimensions or cannot be integrated for technical or compatibility reasons without radically redesigning the entire aircraft concept.
This even applies to powerful engines such as the Eurojet EJ200 or the Saturn AL-41, which are either significantly more compact or more voluminous than the F110 and are therefore practically unsuitable as replacements in the KAAN program.

In addition, Pakistan has J-10 fighter jet with WS-10 C engines. I can't say for sure, but I'm certain that this option is being considered behind closed doors. For example, Turkish engineers may have analyzed the engine in advance to create the conditions for possible integration.

Pokemonte13 · Jun 29, 2025

BalkanTurk90 said:
Yes i am aslo afraid of war between turkiye vs israel that could destroy entire Turkish naval fleet and airbases by israeli . Thats strategic mistake that Turks make from 2002 until now . Even if we have 400 f35 we cant use them agaist israel .
Thats why i was agaist f35 since forever and pro to produce every weapon made in Turkiye .
The problem is not that Izrael is powerful but the kind of how israel is made(and acts) its like israel = western countries .
They have unlimited money and tech from western area .
The only solution is to make Turkiye militaristic country kind like nort / south korea.
The only solution for today until 15 years is that during war we can march 5 million soldiers in syria and fight israel in its borders and pray we can pressure israel to accept our conditions . After 15 years , our airforce , navy will be too powerful even for china or US to attack us , if everything go as planned ...

i mean lets take a look a war between israel and turkey now would most likely result in a defeat of turkey and would be an air battle our army is equal in terms of the quality of personnel but our material is older our air defences are modern but we lack the numbers.
But lets spin the weel forward 10 years by that time we will most likely have cought up with isrealis in terms of tech but will boster a larger inventory then them in all the branches.
israel main advantage is their airforce and their intelligence service and thats were we are investing and the strugle there is seeing the aircraft thats the reason of our alp radars to etheir penetrate the stealth(not sure if possible) but be resistant against ew systems.

what · Jun 29, 2025

Everybody behave, post something constructive and on topic. Otherwise suffer the consequences.

Huelague · Jun 29, 2025

harris said:
The problem is even Israel have better relationship with china than Turkey, why china help Turkey

If we listen to Chinese officials, it doesn’t sound much Israel friendly. Our relation with China is much more older and deeper.

harris said:
In a war of israel and Turkey, i am afraid Europe, USA and china, all of them will help Israel, at least china will keep balanced
At that time, who will help Turkey?Azerbaijan
Pakistan?
Russia wish greatly decrease Turkey, it will be in a even worse situation than iran

one war will just - Tear apart the Turkish emperor's new clothes. you are no better than iran

Don’t be afraid. They will not help Israel, despite from US maybe. Even US citizens now realized, that Israel has no big value despite making lots of problems and costs many lives and money.

TheInsider · Jun 30, 2025

The Eurofighter deal will likely happen. The main obstacle to the Eurofighter deal was the veto of the coalition member SPD. After Özgür Özel spoke to the co-chairman of SPD, Lars Klingbeil, SPD changed its position.

Lool · Jun 30, 2025

TheInsider said:
The Eurofighter deal will likely happen. The main obstacle to the Eurofighter deal was the veto of the coalition member SPD. After Özgür Özel spoke to the co-chairman of SPD, Lars Klingbeil, SPD changed its position.

Bro, do you really think that Ozgur Ozel has a say/power/weight to convince another nation to agree on the Eurofighter deal? That guy is a clown FFS! That guy cant even convince his own people, lool

If the Eurofighter deal passes through it means either one of two things or probably both:
1- Erdogan gave the Germans something in return
2- Erdogan and Israel reached some sort of agreement that made Israel lift the pressure on german politicians so that they can agree to the deal

And God knows what Erdogan did give in return because Iam sure it isnt something good

Anyone who believes that Germany rejected the Eurofighter deal out of Erdogan's authoritarian behaviour is an idiot; I mean they have been selling weapons to nations in the gulf and Egypt for decades yet Erdogan is the only one who doesnt act in line with their so-called democratic values? What a joke and a third rate farce . It is 100% due to Israeli pressure since Germany had no reason to reject the deal in the first place

boredaf · Jun 30, 2025

Spitfire9 said:
Dictators are not popular with north Europeans.

That's bullshit, Europeans have been selling arms to dictators for decades lad. Learn your own history before making blanket statements like that.

Spitfire9 · Jun 30, 2025

boredaf said:
That's bullshit, Europeans have been selling arms to dictators for decades lad. Learn your own history before making blanket statements like that.

I was talking about north European people. Most European governments, too, do not like dictators. Think Eurofighter. Did Turkiye request it and get a positive response? If not, why not?

hugh · Jun 30, 2025

Spitfire9 said:
I was talking about north European people. Most European governments, too, do not like dictators. Think Eurofighter. Did Turkiye request it and get a positive response? If not, why not?

since you have figured all out, can you answer why Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman and Kuwait have these planes? Are these countries the epitome of democracy and human rights in your small bubble?

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