TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

I am not against the Qatari deal because we simply don't have the time to wait for the production lane but is buying second hand aircraft that is not even 5 years old really cheaper than buying brand new. I would have guessed that current global climate would make secondhand jets with quick delivery schedule more valuable

TheInsider said:

Turkiye wants to buy 24 Tranche 3A aircraft from Qatar and 16-24 new Tranche 4 from the UK. There is simply not enough money to buy brand new 40 Eurofighters

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I don’t know if this was posted here before. But according to this news piece the first Ozgur F16 that has Murad Aesa radar is now flying under tail no 87-0019.

The plan is to furnish all Block-30 aircraft with the Aesa radar (Ozgur-2 modernisation) during 2025 to 2027 time period. In addition to this by 2030 to have all Block 40 and 50 aircraft converted to Ozgur-2 status.

The decision to do this was taken and necessary agreements were signed in 2023 to provide parts to make it happen starting from 2025.

Yasar_TR said:

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I don’t know if this was posted here before. But according to this news piece the first Ozgur F16 that has Murad Aesa radar is now flying under tail no 87-0019.

The plan is to furnish all Block-30 aircraft with the Aesa radar (Ozgur-2 modernisation) during 2025 to 2027 time period. In addition to this by 2030 to have all Block 40 and 50 aircraft converted to Ozgur-2 status.

The decision to do this was taken and necessary agreements were signed in 2023 to provide parts to make it happen starting from 2025.

F-16 Blok 30,40 ve 50’ler için ÖZGÜR-2 Projesi imzalandı

ÖZGÜR-2 Projesi resmen başlatıldı. Proje kapsamında Türk Hava Kuvvetleri envanterindeki F-16 Blok 30,40 ve 50 uçakları modernize edilecek

www.savunmasanayist.com

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That news is spot on. The target is to upgrade all block 30-40-50 F-16s till the end of 2030. This includes weapons like Gökhan/Gökbora, air-launched gezgin, self-protection suite, and EW/Targeting pod integration. Basically, Özgür 2+ configuration.

Sanchez said:

Per Bloomberg, Erdogan will directly mention the Qatari EFs during his visit.

Fatih is right to point out all three countries mentioned(Qatar, Kuwait, Oman) are EF users. Kuwait also have 3As.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1980576814356394423

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Reuters mentions that Turkey is looking at both Qatari and Omani EFs. My brainfreeze, Kuwait, Oman and Qatar all operate 3As, with ECRS MK0 AESA radars. Tranche 3A is the most modern EF flying today, mostly thanks to its AESA radar.

Bloomberg had mentioned 24+16 aircraft. Reuters mentions 12+28. Maybe 6 from Qatar, 6 from Oman; details are scant. Qatar have already ordered 12 T4 aircraft, while no Omani follow up yet exists.

I don't really think cost is the actual reason for seeking second hand aircraft; but timelines. A 3 year old Qatari EF won't be that cheaper; and again, real costs are in setting up the capability and maintaining it, not flyaway cost.

"For the Typhoons, Turkey is nearing a deal with Britain and other European countries in which it would promptly receive 12 of them, albeit used, from previous buyers Qatar and Oman to meet its immediate needs, according to a person familiar with the matter.
Eurofighter consortium members Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain would approve the second-hand sale proposal, in which they would provide Turkey with 28 new jets in coming years pending a final purchase agreement, the person said.
Erdogan is expected to discuss the proposal on visits to Qatar and Oman on Wednesday and Thursday, with jet numbers, pricing, and timelines the main issues.

Erdogan is then expected to host British Prime Minister Keir Starmer and German Chancellor Friedrich Merz later this month, when agreements could be sealed, sources say."

This whole shopping spree should turn into a Kaan sales boom going forward as today's sellers deserve it having handed over their fighters.

Sanchez said:

My brainfreeze, Kuwait, Oman and Qatar all operate 3As, with ECRS MK0 AESA radars

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Correction: Omani EFs still use mechanical CAPTOR-Ms. Still very good radars; but not AESA; but with a future idea to upgrade them to ECRS Mk0

I wonder how would the fleet composition be with both Captor-Ms and Mk0 Captor-Es. With more funding, T3As as well as RAF T3s can be upgraded to future Mk2 ECRS; which was proposed in the past. New builds from UK line for TurAF will probably come with Mk2s.

So if Omani, Qatari and new built jets are received, we will have both Captor-M, and Mk0 and Mk2 Captor-Es. Could there be a future plan to upgrade Captor-M and Mk0s with Murad, that'd be interesting.

Sanchez said:

Correction: Omani EFs still use mechanical CAPTOR-Ms. Still very good radars; but not AESA; but with a future idea to upgrade them to ECRS Mk0

I wonder how would the fleet composition be with both Captor-Ms and Mk0 Captor-Es. With more funding, T3As as well as RAF T3s can be upgraded to future Mk2 ECRS; which was proposed in the past. New builds from UK line for TurAF will probably come with Mk2s.

So if Omani, Qatari and new built jets are received, we will have both Captor-M, and Mk0 and Mk2 Captor-Es. Could there be a future plan to upgrade Captor-M and Mk0s with Murad, that'd be interesting.

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According to media sources, Omani Typhoons being Tranche-3 were programmed to upgrade to ECRS-MK2 radar.

If, somehow Türkiye manages to buy Qatari Typhoons and a quantity from Oman, then in due course as our new production Typhoons start to join the fleet, the older ones can be upgraded to ECRS-MK2 level. It may be prudent to include this possibility in the negotiations.
This is not a cheap exercise either. UK has an upgrade program for its around 40 Tranche-3 Typhoons at a cost of 2.35billion GBP. (approximately 50 to 60 million per plane as some of this cost involves development cost of fitting new radar to old planes).

Integrating local Murad Aesa radar would most likely involve extensive electronic parts change and prove to be prohibitively costly; apart from requiring source code access.

Sanchez said:

Correction: Omani EFs still use mechanical CAPTOR-Ms. Still very good radars; but not AESA; but with a future idea to upgrade them to ECRS Mk0

I wonder how would the fleet composition be with both Captor-Ms and Mk0 Captor-Es. With more funding, T3As as well as RAF T3s can be upgraded to future Mk2 ECRS; which was proposed in the past. New builds from UK line for TurAF will probably come with Mk2s.

So if Omani, Qatari and new built jets are received, we will have both Captor-M, and Mk0 and Mk2 Captor-Es. Could there be a future plan to upgrade Captor-M and Mk0s with Murad, that'd be interesting.

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Still with 40 eurofighter we cant secure superiority in quantity nor quality . We need at least 100 eurofightets
- 40 new T4
- 24 T3 Qatari
- 12 T3 Omani
- 30 Used UK T1 ( we can upgrade or used for training .
For a country like Turkiye which look itself as world power or major regional power new 40 fighter are nothing , if u look those fake tiny Qatari, Oman , danmark , serbia croatia , finland are getting 40 fighter jets .
Turkiye MUST have at least 400 modern fighter jets .

An unlimited number of Kızılelma and Anka3 can shift the balance of air power to our side in 3 years before any new foreign jet can be inducted.

Zafer said:

An unlimited number of Kızılelma and Anka3 can shift the balance of air power to our side in 3 years before any new foreign jet can be inducted.

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Heavy Electronic attack by enemy and can you still use kizilelma or other drones ! While manned jets are another matter , they still can fly under electronic attack and at least bring jet back home not into the sea or at enemy airbase

BalkanTurk90 said:

Heavy Electronic attack by enemy and can you still use kizilelma or other drones ! While manned jets are another matter , they still can fly under electronic attack and at least bring jet back home not into the sea or at enemy airbase

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Even TB2 comes back

Zafer said:

Even TB2 comes back

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Debatable, there have been cases of Baykar drones dropping without missile/gun damage over unfriendly territory; it's not a guarantee, probably 60 to 40. EW and counter EW is hard.

BalkanTurk90 said:

30 Used UK T1

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There are no 30 RAF T1s. That number is like 18 at most, including the birds to be cannibalized.

Zafer said:

An unlimited number of Kızılelma and Anka3 can shift the balance of air power to our side in 3 years before any new foreign jet can be inducted.

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In what world do we get "unlimited" number of KE and Anka-3 in 3 years, exactly? Because it is quite literally impossible in this one that we occupy right now.

We don't know how many Ukrainian engines we have now, nor do we know how many we can get over the course of next 3 years. However, we do know that their factory has been bombed multiple times over the course of the war, one being very recently.

We know that TF6000 is still going through ground testing, which is far from over, and then it'll have to go through another set of tests in the air. We also know that TF10000 hasn't been built or at the very least fired yet. After that, it'll have to go through ground tests first, then, it'll have to go through aerial testing.

Erdoğan himself said it probably wouldn't be ready before 2028 for TF6000 a couple of years ago, TEI engineers has said they expected it to start qualification tests by 2028 as well, some time last year. TEI CEO said TF10000 would be started in a few years, just this year.

So, please explain to me, how are we getting "unlimited number of KE and Anka 3" in 3 years, in a logical manner that is based on facts and basic understanding of physical reality.

Sanchez said:

Debatable, there have been cases of Baykar drones dropping without missile/gun damage over unfriendly territory; it's not a guarantee, probably 60 to 40. EW and counter EW is hard.


There are no 30 RAF T1s. That number is like 18 at most, including the birds to be cannibalized.

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UK had 52 T1 and 26 / 30 have been retired only 4 are active and will be retired in 2027 , T2 in 2030 but we can go aslo for T2 which we can buy very cheap use them for training , spare parts even modernise with our modern systems and UKA HAVE 60+ t2

BalkanTurk90 said:

UK had 52 T1 and 26 / 30 have been retired only 4 are active and will be retired in 2027

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Of those retired, most are not in a flyable condition as far as we are aware; maybe like 15, not including the 4 jets in the Falklands, because they are not letting those go before 2027. They are still yet to order new aircraft.

If this buy finally happens, there's also the training. I had talked about the joint Qatari-RAF 12SQN in the past. We'll probably see a similar arrangement with RAF. But, do they have the birds to allocate?

Sanchez said:

HvKK chief visited the 12 joint RAF/Qatari squadron as RAF chief's guest. (aircraft shown here however is from the 11 Squadron from the same base). I think they are actively studying creating a joint Turkish/RAF squadron for training. as we previously discussed.

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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1892882228771725313

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1893216202601689369

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