Holikarbon
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Greece is not a problem for us to deal with.
TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions
- Thread starter Blackeyes90
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"Imagine buying something for 4.5 billion (Steel Dome (Çelik Kubbe)) and never using it. Also Imagine the amount of opportunities we lost because of it."
The best approach is to put logic aside and keep going like this. (!)
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We are on the verge of a leap forward in both combat aviation and anti-access, area denial capabilities. While building this infrastructure, we have sometimes taken blows and sometimes dealt blows in a vast area stretching from Libya to the Caucasus, from the Black Sea to the Horn of Africa, but we have somehow concretely and permanently expanded our military sphere of influence. With its successes and failures, and with delays of three or eight years, if Turkiye can establish its military industry on the world stage and simultaneously achieve regional military and security dominance by the 2030s, it will be the new paradigm that is being discussed, not the costs and mistakes made.
IC3M@N FX
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The S-400 procurement was also a tool of a new, multi-vector foreign policy. Erdoğan wanted to demonstrate that Turkey was no longer merely following orders from the West, but was acting as an independent regional power. Furthermore, a strategic rapprochement with Moscow was absolutely essential to safeguard Turkey’s complex military operations in northern Syrian airspace (such as in Afrin or Idlib), which was effectively controlled by Russia.
In summary, from Ankara’s perspective, the purchase was not merely an arms deal, but a symbolic and practical breakthrough towards strategic autonomy – even if the price paid (exclusion from the F-35 programme and CAATSA sanctions) was massive, both in military-technical and economic terms.
At that time, Turkey was not yet independent or stable enough to effectively withstand subtle foreign policy pressure from the West; the reorientation of Turkish policy towards multiple axes – the economy, trade and defence independence – was still fragile. Time was needed, along with military safeguards or deterrents – in other words, the S-400s were purchased following the attempted coup as a means of political leverage; the message was: ‘We can buy even more from Russia and China; we have options – do not force us to have to use them.’
Whether one likes Erdogan or not – had he been overthrown during the coup, however, I can assure you with all my heart that all defence projects would have been put on hold; the country would have run up debts with the IMF once again and would have had to settle once more for the role of an obedient vassal, content with the scraps left on the table. Political, economic and military independence does not come for free – the more one pursues it, the stronger the external resistance becomes, seeking to dissuade one from doing so.
The S-400 has served its purpose, at least in the sense that it has allowed time to consolidate the transformation into a network power spanning East and West, and South and North. Turkey is too important to ignore, too significant to overlook, and too headstrong to be brought into the fold. The country exerts a unique pull that compels others in its vicinity to negotiate with it on equal terms, whether they like it or not.
In summary, from Ankara’s perspective, the purchase was not merely an arms deal, but a symbolic and practical breakthrough towards strategic autonomy – even if the price paid (exclusion from the F-35 programme and CAATSA sanctions) was massive, both in military-technical and economic terms.
At that time, Turkey was not yet independent or stable enough to effectively withstand subtle foreign policy pressure from the West; the reorientation of Turkish policy towards multiple axes – the economy, trade and defence independence – was still fragile. Time was needed, along with military safeguards or deterrents – in other words, the S-400s were purchased following the attempted coup as a means of political leverage; the message was: ‘We can buy even more from Russia and China; we have options – do not force us to have to use them.’
Whether one likes Erdogan or not – had he been overthrown during the coup, however, I can assure you with all my heart that all defence projects would have been put on hold; the country would have run up debts with the IMF once again and would have had to settle once more for the role of an obedient vassal, content with the scraps left on the table. Political, economic and military independence does not come for free – the more one pursues it, the stronger the external resistance becomes, seeking to dissuade one from doing so.
The S-400 has served its purpose, at least in the sense that it has allowed time to consolidate the transformation into a network power spanning East and West, and South and North. Turkey is too important to ignore, too significant to overlook, and too headstrong to be brought into the fold. The country exerts a unique pull that compels others in its vicinity to negotiate with it on equal terms, whether they like it or not.
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Nobody wants it but it is inevitable nonetheless
If Turkey wants to get back its blue homeland, a war is 100% inevitable with Greece since Greece reached a point in which they believe that everything in the MedEast Sea belongs to them. In other words, the Greeks need a good slap to wake up from their wet dream just like with Armenia
The only question is when, where, and how the war will be conducted and that will depend on how the Turkish govt and foreign actors controlling Greece play their cards
Pokemonte13
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Blue Homeland Doctrine is not only for expanding our water but also denying the expansion of others. If we can deny the greeks to expand their control over water they claim as theirs then i think it has done its purpose as a full fledged expansion would led to conflict with the US and EU and honestly that not worth it. So as long as nobody effectively controls it its a useful tool.
Khagan1923
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One of the more feverish Anti-Turkey Senators, Lindsey Graham, seems to have passed away yesterday.
I'm sure most members here know him well.
I'm sure flags in Israel and Greece will be lowered to half-flag with this news as they have lost their biggest pawn in the US Congress.
We will see if this will have any impact on the F-35-Turkey saga in the Senate.
boredaf
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Lindsey Graham was Trump's bitch, no matter what he said in the end he always did what Trump told him to do.
Turkic
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Passed away right after saying F-35's for Turkiye is possible. It's hard to not get suspicious. "Brief and sudden illness"
Khagan1923
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Yeah, still he was a bigger bitch for Israel. The second he would smell the chance to disobey Trump in regards to Turkey he would have done it.
This way most likely a interim will take his seat who will vote according to the Party line.
Can't also forget the influence he had inside the Party to stir up shit without him actively doing it.
We need to use the time until the Mid-Terms as Trump and Republicans will most likely lose the House and there is a chance they lose the Senate to push through as much as we can.
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Let's not clutter the thread with off topic stuff.
F35 was derailed a while back and it won't be solved quick enough to matter.
Correcting and avoiding derailing is more important than continuing on a path playing chicken to see if it breaks as our politicians did.
I find it amusing how anyone can spend more than 1 min on Lindseys death before they move on.
You think a miracle is going to happen now that he is dead.
Move on. Get thos 80 engines for KAAN and let's move forward fast and hard.
F35 was derailed a while back and it won't be solved quick enough to matter.
Correcting and avoiding derailing is more important than continuing on a path playing chicken to see if it breaks as our politicians did.
I find it amusing how anyone can spend more than 1 min on Lindseys death before they move on.
You think a miracle is going to happen now that he is dead.
Move on. Get thos 80 engines for KAAN and let's move forward fast and hard.
AlperTunga
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No F35s will be delivered to us. Even if delivered they will be export version and come much later. By that time what we will learn from them will be limited. Buying F35B maybe more sensible but Güler is saying 40F35A. Overall, F35 is a bygone train for us. And we are late as usual in preparing our air force. This is disrespectful against our supremely talended brave pilots. Since more than 20 years nothing has been done for our air force. What a stupid mistake. This should actually be punished big time. Still no news from Özgür project. The next three to four years is the most dangerous time period for us. This is the only time window for Israel to attack us together with Greece. They may try it initially without US support, but then mobilize the media and their lobbies in Congress to get help. We need to prepare more intensively and faster.
Turkic
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There is no export version for F-35. Only difference is the radar and the restrictions for APG-85 is not only for us. It is effective for any air force other than USAF/USN. All we can expect for it to be exported to UK or Israel.
Current talks are for the 6 F-35's that were already finished. These are not any type of export versions. They're the same F-35's as others get. And those should not require congressional approval once CAATSA is removed. Because they're already ours. 6 F-35's seems highly probable. The problem starts when you ask to buy more. If we do, they will not be "export versions" either.
They will not dare. We are not Iran using missiles with 100+ meter CEP. They know they will be doomed if our defence industry goes war-mode. Even current US production speeds wouldn't be sufficient for israel air defence to resist Tayfun's production speed. No need to mention greek air defences. Just talking about our ballistic capability bothers them enough. Then KE/Anka-3 enters the discussion, bypassing test processes and going lrip immediately. We may not be able to effectively use our F-16's against Israel but KE's patrolling over syria would deter them. And don't tell me we can't produce enough KE's by the time. S5 is already out. If a war occures, 5 will be 50 in no time. You are the one disrespecting our engineers and pilots by saying they could dare.
I get your point. But you're too pessimistic.
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Bro, do you have a source about these predictions? Or is it your own opinion?
As of March 2025 it was stated that a firing test of a Gokdogan missile was carried out with an F16 Ozgur plane carrying Murad Aesa radar.
F-16 ÖZGÜR'den test atışları
2025 yılında F-16 ÖZGÜR Uçağından ilk defa AESA Burun Radarı veri bağı güdümü ile hava hedefine GÖKDOĞAN atışı gerçekleştirildiği açıklandı.
www.defenceturk.net
A year before that in March 2024, the first F16 with Murad radar had flown.
Milli AESA Burun Radarı ilk kez F-16 ÖZGÜR ile uçtu | SavunmaSanayiST
ASELSAN Milli AESA Burun Radarı, F-16 ÖZGÜR savaş uçağıyla ilk uçuşunu gerçekleştirdi. Milli AESA Burun Radarı'nın ilk uçuşu başarıyla tamamlandı.
www.savunmasanayist.com
According to below article the Ozgur serial modernisation of f16s in TurAF inventory will have been completed by end of 2026. (This, most probably, is the structural and avionic modernisation of 35 Block 30 aircraft)
F-16 ÖZGÜR Modernisation to be Completed by 2026’s End | TURDEF
The Turkish MoD activity report included that the serial modernisation of F-16 fighters in the Turkish Air Force inventory will be done by the end of 2026.
turdef.com
As per below link, however it is claimed that these planes will have the Murad Aesa radar too.
Zona Militar
ÖZGÜR Program: The Turkish Air Force will receive the latest F-16 Block 30 modernized with ASELSAN’s new MURAD radar by the end of the year Over the past decades, Türkiye has devoted significant...
www.facebook.com
This is in line with unconfirmed news about multiple f16s flying and testing the new Murad Aesa radar currently.
AlperTunga
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A state has to consider „pessimistic“ scenarios as well. But if Greece and Israel together attacks with 300 jets, and 50 of them being F35 Adir the whole thing will be concluded in one day. If majority of our air force is gone, which KE to be produced after one month will help us?? They will inflict the damage to our key assets and then US and Europe will push for ceasefire. Also currently we are producing Tayfun but meaningful numbers will only be achieved in couple of years. So please someone explain me how we can stop 300 fighter jets with 50 F35 Adir attacking us???
IC3M@N FX
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The situation isn’t quite that bad: the ‘Özgür II’ Upgrade, including the SLEP Upgrade for all Block 30 aircraft, will be completed this year. After that, it will be the turn of the oldest Block 40 aircraft in 2027–28, followed by the Block 50 aircraft in 2029–30.
In parallel with this, from 2027–28 onwards, 24 or more Eurofighter aircraft equipped with MK0 AESA radar and the latest incremental hardware and software updates from BAE Systems will be delivered for the aircraft from Qatar and Oman. Together, they will represent a genuine qualitative upgrade for the Turkish fleet by 2030.
The F-35 is said to be the best aircraft in the world in terms of stealth and sensor fusion (the US has never had an equal opponent such as the J-20 with which to make a comparison), but in kinetic terms the aircraft is a failure; the F-35 platform serves primarily to effectively destroy fourth-generation aircraft according to the ‘First Look First Shoot’ principle.
However, when networked 4.5+ generation fighter aircraft such as the F-16 Özgür II and the Eurofighter, as well as drones such as the Kizilelma and Super Simsek, come into play, the situation looks more balanced again.
Forget the idea that we’ll become a superpower and can increase our annual budget without limit – it amounts to no more than 45–55 billion US dollars, and that’s a lot, because with every dollar, every lira, that we put into our defence industry, it feels as though 1 Dollar is worth 2–3; it then feels like a budget of 80–90 billion US dollars, because we pay the actual price + personnel and development costs, rather than the exorbitant profit margins charged by the US and Europe. That is why we can do more than European countries with a budget of 60–70 billion US dollars, but this does not make our budget infinitely larger – it remains the same and is increased only minimally year on year.
In parallel with this, from 2027–28 onwards, 24 or more Eurofighter aircraft equipped with MK0 AESA radar and the latest incremental hardware and software updates from BAE Systems will be delivered for the aircraft from Qatar and Oman. Together, they will represent a genuine qualitative upgrade for the Turkish fleet by 2030.
The F-35 is said to be the best aircraft in the world in terms of stealth and sensor fusion (the US has never had an equal opponent such as the J-20 with which to make a comparison), but in kinetic terms the aircraft is a failure; the F-35 platform serves primarily to effectively destroy fourth-generation aircraft according to the ‘First Look First Shoot’ principle.
However, when networked 4.5+ generation fighter aircraft such as the F-16 Özgür II and the Eurofighter, as well as drones such as the Kizilelma and Super Simsek, come into play, the situation looks more balanced again.
Forget the idea that we’ll become a superpower and can increase our annual budget without limit – it amounts to no more than 45–55 billion US dollars, and that’s a lot, because with every dollar, every lira, that we put into our defence industry, it feels as though 1 Dollar is worth 2–3; it then feels like a budget of 80–90 billion US dollars, because we pay the actual price + personnel and development costs, rather than the exorbitant profit margins charged by the US and Europe. That is why we can do more than European countries with a budget of 60–70 billion US dollars, but this does not make our budget infinitely larger – it remains the same and is increased only minimally year on year.
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