TR Navy Naval Programs

Sanchez said:

It's possible that he misspoke and meant Milgem total including Adas. We haven't heard of any follow up order for 4 more.

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We really do not need 12 Istifs. We need larger, maybe similarly equipped 16-32vls 8 ASM mid size frigates to replace older Gabyas that we can send over for long duties like off Libya.

Sanchez said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2091121455874383982

We really do not need 12 Istifs. We need larger, maybe similarly equipped 16-32vls 8 ASM mid size frigates to replace older Gabyas that we can send over for long duties like off Libya.

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Maybe there is a flight 2 configuration

Sanchez said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2091121455874383982

We really do not need 12 Istifs. We need larger, maybe similarly equipped 16-32vls 8 ASM mid size frigates to replace older Gabyas that we can send over for long duties like off Libya.

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Possibly they intend to sell 2 more istifs on the go remember 2 is already sold to Indonesia, thus adding 4 more to the orders.
On top of that, this also proves neither serial production of TF-2000 is as close as advertised.

Sanchez said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2091121455874383982

We really do not need 12 Istifs. We need larger, maybe similarly equipped 16-32vls 8 ASM mid size frigates to replace older Gabyas that we can send over for long duties like off Libya.

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I fully agree with you. If the intention is to sail our flag in blue waters, then İstif class is a limited platform. Long endurance and open seas performance capable 135+ metres long 4500 to 5500 ton frigates are needed.
The aircraft carrier will need at least one may be two tepe class destroyers to accompany it. Also two mid class frigates that can sail in blue waters.

Gabya class frigates are specially built for ocean going duties. But their endurance regarding range is less than İstif and their endurance regarding going without replenishment is similar to İstif.

So we need a frigate that can go long without replenishment and withstand the arduous sailing conditions of open oceans.


EDIT

@Anmdt ’s last post makes sense.
They have sold 2 İstif ships already. So they need to replace those. Add 2 more with a view to sell (if not already promised to another country) . That makes 12 altogether.

Yasar_TR said:

Gabya class frigates are specially built for ocean going duties. But their endurance regarding range is less than İstif and their endurance regarding going without replenishment is similar to İstif.

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So İstif class frigates happened ideal platform for Turkish Navy as well as for others. Do we really need open ocean frigates?

UkroTurk said:

So İstif class frigates happened ideal platform for Turkish Navy as well as for others. Do we really need open ocean frigates?

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yes

UkroTurk said:

So İstif class frigates happened ideal platform for Turkish Navy as well as for others. Do we really need open ocean frigates?

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Well, you can extend that question to:

Do we really need Aircraft carrier?
Do we really need destroyers?
Did we really need an LHD.?

The simple answer to yours and to mine are NO!
We are not a rich country to spend 1.5 billion dollars on each destroyer and in excess of 4billion for a carrier.

We do not have overseas territories to protect. We do not have direct access to open oceans. So no need for ocean faring ships.

However there is a more complicated answer.

There is the issue of protecting our country’s air power beyond land-based airbases through a carrier.
Also to secure the long Mediterranean-Aegean-Blacksea coastline and protect critical maritime trade routes nearby or off shore, and fulfill strategic defense obligations for NATO in a more expanded capacity.
When majority of your neighbours are not your friends you need to have more say in global matters and exert your influence in regional matters.

Also there is the fait accompli situation that we already have an LHD.
We are already building a carrier and a destroyer. So it is only natural to ask for the correct and suitable ships that should accompany such platforms.
Already there is a base being set up in Somalia and a presence in Qatar. So small İstif frigates will not cut it.

Yasar_TR said:

Well, you can extend that question

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No need to expand further. Regarding information ( İstif class range is as same as Gaby )given by you, I made conclusion İstif class is very capable frigate while covering Mediterranean sea. I just wanted underline Turkish Navy created great optimal solution.

2 or 3 X İstif class frigates could give air defense to LHD or aircraft carrier Incase of Mediterranean operations.

UkroTurk said:

2 or 3 X İstif class frigates could give air defense to LHD or aircraft carrier Incase of Mediterranean operations

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Remain debatable when every possible adversary have both naval and air launched ASMs and soon lots of drones. 16 VLS really won't cut it. Self defense and light convoy duties sure, actual long range air defense outside 25nm is hard, expensive and while Cenk is a nifty search radar, their FCRs are also, eh. They are cheap, we have that going for us. Will work pretty well as part of a group, not at all enough by itself.

UkroTurk said:

No need to expand further. Regarding information ( İstif class range is as same as Gaby )given by you, I made conclusion İstif class is very capable frigate while covering Mediterranean sea. I just wanted underline Turkish Navy created great optimal solution.

2 or 3 X İstif class frigates could give air defense to LHD or aircraft carrier Incase of Mediterranean operations.

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That is a little blinkered way of looking at it.
You may ask yourself; Why does Italy have a carrier and a LHD?
Italy doesn’t have overseas territories.
Why do they build 6600 ton Bergamini class frigates?
They have those because of the reasons I gave in previous post.

In the seas west of Greece and Italy, the Mediterranean can develop waves over 10 metres in height. In the Balearic seas wave heights can reach 8 metres quite often with a 100 to 200 metre distance between crests.

To give stability to ships, the beam and length of ship has to be at an optimum value.

Your ships that will protect your carrier and LHD have to be built to withstand the adverse conditions well to be able to accompany your Carrier and LHD.

Istif class is really good for littoral waters. Not for open seas.

Yasar_TR said:

In the seas west of Greece and Italy, the Mediterranean can develop waves over 10 metres in height. In the Balearic seas wave heights can reach 8 metres quite often with a 100 to 200 metre distance between crests.

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All modern "warfighting" ships of Italy are 5500+ ton vessels, FREMMs, Orrizontes, the new PPA. Only the lighter armed flag carrying vessels like OPVs and few remaining corvettes are below 2500 ton. With the future PPX and EPC, even those patrol dutied ships are coming close to 3000 ton.

If we are to see 8 Tepe, then fine. 8 destroyers can do anything we do and more; if they are to stay at 4, current planning doesn't exactly cover all our future needs.

new orders or construction start?

I don't know if anyone has already said this but Tf 2000 will also get dedicated laser weapon from aselsan stated by akyol.

Pokemonte13 said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2091526927416762701

new orders or construction start?

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Man, i wake up to a new day and these guys pump up the number. At least consider omitting the delivered or completed and yet to be delivered ships.

Sanchez said:

All modern "warfighting" ships of Italy are 5500+ ton vessels, FREMMs, Orrizontes, the new PPA. Only the lighter armed flag carrying vessels like OPVs and few remaining corvettes are below 2500 ton. With the future PPX and EPC, even those patrol dutied ships are coming close to 3000 ton.

If we are to see 8 Tepe, then fine. 8 destroyers can do anything we do and more; if they are to stay at 4, current planning doesn't exactly cover all our future needs.

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I believe we need I-classes especially for blacksea and nearby seas for patrol and protection duties mainly and for escort duties, yet i can't seem to understand strike length VLS for gezgin and siper-2ER.

We need a mid-size frigate, yet also we are quite reluctant to develop one. Too much eggs the basket, the aircraft carrier is definitely not today's business.

The need for heavy frigates is among the top deficiencies that naval enthusiasts will focus on over the next decade. Producing a heavy ASW frigate derived from the hull of a Tepe-class Air Defense Destroyer may seem cheaper in terms of "engineering hours and R&D risks" compared to designing a hull from scratch. However, due to ASW criteria such as propulsion, transmission, and silence, as well as the main mast architecture, it would likely cost more in terms of ultimate operational cost and efficiency.

The Tepe-class was designed to utilize a CODOG configuration consisting of a massive main mast, 2 gas turbines, and 2 diesel engines. While this structure is excellent for speed and rapid reaction, it radiates a massive amount of noise underwater.

The primary weapon of a submarine hunter is "listening silently." Therefore, the modern heavy ASW frigate approach is increasingly shifting toward integrated electric propulsion systems (CODLAG/IEP). While hunting submarines, the ship shuts down its diesel engines and gas turbines completely; it proceeds using only the electricity generated by acoustically isolated generators, powered by electric motors that produce ultra-low vibration. To install complex, large electric motors and generator rooms like CODLAG or IEP inside a Tepe-class hull, you would need to redesign the ship's entire internal machinery space layout and shaft lines from scratch.

The Tepe-class will be a massive destroyer of approximately 8,300 tons. Its hull design is likely optimized primarily for hydrodynamic efficiency, seakeeping, and, most importantly, Low Radar Cross Section (RCS). In an ASW ship, managing the acoustic signature (underwater noise) is vital rather than the radar cross-section of the hull. In a heavy ASW ship, there are numerous other details, such as installing double-layer acoustic mounts (raft mounting) under the machinery, integrating special masking systems (Prairie-Masker) that blow air under the hull to prevent cavitation (bubble noise) around the propeller, and shaping the hull form to minimize the water flow noise reaching the bow sonar. Attempting to acoustically isolate an 8,300-ton air defense hull multiplies both the acoustic isolation infrastructure and the costs due to the tonnage. A massive hull means more underwater friction and, consequently, more noise. The ideal range for an ocean-going ASW frigate is to remain within the 5,000 to 6,000-ton band.

Another derivation problem is the main mast architecture. The main mast of the Tepe-class will feature an integrated mast structure with the Multifunctional Phased Array Radar. This will house AESA panels weighing tons, consuming very high power (at the MW level), requiring serious liquid cooling infrastructure, and costing astronomical amounts. A heavy ASW ship does not need a monster like ÇAFRAD on top. To convert a superstructure and mast configured according to the heavy ÇAFRAD architecture for ASW purposes, you need to recalculate the ship's center of gravity (metacentric height). Ballast revisions must be made to maintain the ship's stability in place of the removed heavy radars.

Consequently, deriving the Istif-class hull by enlarging it will also create its own separate web of problems. I believe the cleanest solution is to start project preparations now, ensuring that the construction of an ASW frigate of around 5,000 tons begins immediately after the first Tepe-class destroyer is launched.

Anmdt said:

I believe we need I-classes especially for blacksea and nearby seas for patrol and protection duties mainly and for escort duties, yet i can't seem to understand strike length VLS for gezgin and siper-2ER.

We need a mid-size frigate, yet also we are quite reluctant to develop one. Too much eggs the basket, the aircraft carrier is definitely not today's business.

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Dear , how many billion dollars do you need for your dream Turkish Navy? I would give all money from Turkish treasury without hesitation, if I were Padişah Because I am sure you would spend wisely.

Which warships would you prefer right now?

UkroTurk said:

Dear , how many billion dollars do you need for your dream Turkish Navy? I would give all money from Turkish treasury without hesitation, if I were Padişah Because I am sure you would spend wisely.

Which warships would you prefer right now?

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For the dream i'd need a trillion dollar. If we were being realistic i would simply remove the aircraft carrier and focus at tepe, milden and a multi purpose frigate until the designs mature and reaches to the serial building phase.

I was saying Türkiye's shipbuilding capacity has to expand and good karma, 6 months on hitting 71 simultaneous builds already.