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Afif

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Did you know that M.Ali Jinnah(big fan of Atatürk) wanted the same for his country but lacked the power to implement it.
After his death the Islamists twisted his words(speech) and made it the Islamic Republic Pakistan(formerly know as just Pakistan).

Amm, while I do believe that, Jinnah envisaged Pakistan as a 'homeland for India's Muslims, as opposed to an Islamic state', many would probbaly disagree. E.g. @Nilgiri (there are some interesting disscusions on this topic in 'Indian coffee house' thread)

I don't think it was about he lacking the power to implement his ideas. Rather, he just died too early, leaving behind an infant Nation.


One thing should be added though, Jinnah wasn't really Atatürk's caliber.

It is not like I am saying this because I don't like him that much, (our historic beef with Pakistan) Rather, in general I don't like the idea of equating pure political leaders (no matter how great they are) with commanders who lead the army and fought for their Nation in the battlefield with sweat and blood.

In my book, it is just a different level.
Specially, with Atatürk. Who had to fight multiple Superpowers to save his Nation.

Also, even though Modern day Pakistan portray Jinnah as the sole founding father of the Nation. In reality it was quite different. It would be more accurate to say Pakistan had Founding fathers. (In plural)


Again, it is not to undermine Jinnah's contribution to the formation of Pakistan and his leading role in it, (and I am grateful for him for that) but to point to the fact that, there were other crucial figures without whom Pakistan probably wouldn't have been possible. Among them are prominent Bengali politicians of that times. (Who are ussually ignored in today's history writings)

The fact that, the very party (Muslim league) that Jinnah lead to the formation of Pakistan, was founded in Dhaka by bengali stateman.

"Later that year, newspapers published a dispatch from Salimullah to various Muslim leaders around India urging them to form an all-India political party he called Muslim All India Confederacy,[6] and leaders of the Aligarh Movement requested him to convene the 20th meeting of the All India Mohammedan Educational Conference at his own cost. Over two thousand people covering Muslim leaders from all over India gathered at the Nawab's family garden-house in Shahbag, Dhaka for the conference held between 27 and 30 December 1906. On the last day, the assembly formed the All India Muslim League, appointing Nawab Salimullah the Vice President and placing him on a committee to craft its constitution."



Or for example, "The very Lahore Resolution, also called Pakistan resolution, (written and prepared by Muhammad Zafarullah Khan) was presented by A. K. Fazlul Huq, the Prime Minister of Bengal, was a formal political statement adopted by the All-India Muslim League on the occasion of its three-day general session in Lahore on 22–24 March 1940. The resolution called for independent states as seen by the statement:

The resolution was passed by the All India Muslim League at its annual session in Lahore on 23 March 1940. When Fazlul Huq arrived at the Lahore meeting, Muhammad Ali Jinnah remarked "When the tiger (Fazlul Huq) arrives, the lamb (Jinnah) must give away". Fazlul Huq formally proposed the resolution at the annual session.

Fazlul Huq was one of the founding statesmen of Pakistan due to his role in presenting the Lahore Resolution in 1940."



It is known that, Jinnah requested Fazlul Huq to present the Lahore Resolution/Pakistan Resolution as his support was deemed crucial.

Also, you can read about-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khawaja_Nazimuddin and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huseyn_Shaheed_Suhrawardy



Anyway, I didn't intent to burden you with Pakistan's history lessons, but looks like I almost wrote an article.
 

TR_123456

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Amm, while I do believe that, Jinnah envisaged Pakistan as a 'homeland for India's Muslims, as opposed to an Islamic state', many would probbaly disagree. E.g. @Nilgiri (there are some interesting disscusions on this topic in 'Indian coffee house' thread)

I don't think it was about he lacking the power to implement his ideas. Rather, he just died too early, leaving behind an infant Nation.


One thing should be added though, Jinnah wasn't really Atatürk's caliber.

It is not like I am saying this because I don't like him that much, (our historic beef with Pakistan) Rather, in general I don't like the idea of equating pure political leaders (no matter how great they are) with commanders who lead the army and fought for their Nation in the battlefield with sweat and blood.

In my book, it is just a different level.
Specially, with Atatürk. Who had to fight multiple Superpowers to save his Nation.

Also, even though Modern day Pakistan portray Jinnah as the sole founding father of the Nation. In reality it was quite different. It would be more accurate to say Pakistan had Founding fathers. (In plural)


Again, it is not to undermine Jinnah's contribution to the formation of Pakistan and his leading role in it, (and I am grateful for him for that) but to point to the fact that, there were other crucial figures without whom Pakistan probably wouldn't have been possible. Among them are prominent Bengali politicians of that times. (Who are ussually ignored in today's history writings)

The fact that, the very party (Muslim league) that Jinnah lead to the formation of Pakistan, was founded in Dhaka by bengali stateman.

"Later that year, newspapers published a dispatch from Salimullah to various Muslim leaders around India urging them to form an all-India political party he called Muslim All India Confederacy,[6] and leaders of the Aligarh Movement requested him to convene the 20th meeting of the All India Mohammedan Educational Conference at his own cost. Over two thousand people covering Muslim leaders from all over India gathered at the Nawab's family garden-house in Shahbag, Dhaka for the conference held between 27 and 30 December 1906. On the last day, the assembly formed the All India Muslim League, appointing Nawab Salimullah the Vice President and placing him on a committee to craft its constitution."



Or for example, "The very Lahore Resolution, also called Pakistan resolution, (written and prepared by Muhammad Zafarullah Khan) was presented by A. K. Fazlul Huq, the Prime Minister of Bengal, was a formal political statement adopted by the All-India Muslim League on the occasion of its three-day general session in Lahore on 22–24 March 1940. The resolution called for independent states as seen by the statement:

The resolution was passed by the All India Muslim League at its annual session in Lahore on 23 March 1940. When Fazlul Huq arrived at the Lahore meeting, Muhammad Ali Jinnah remarked "When the tiger (Fazlul Huq) arrives, the lamb (Jinnah) must give away". Fazlul Huq formally proposed the resolution at the annual session.

Fazlul Huq was one of the founding statesmen of Pakistan due to his role in presenting the Lahore Resolution in 1940."



It is known that, Jinnah requested Fazlul Huq to present the Lahore Resolution/Pakistan Resolution as his support was deemed crucial.

Also, you can read about-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khawaja_Nazimuddin and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huseyn_Shaheed_Suhrawardy



Anyway, I didn't intent to burden you with Pakistan's history lessons, but looks like I almost wrote an article.
So,he didnt have the power to do so,right???
 

Afif

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No,not even when he was alive.

Well, the historical figures that I referred to, were quite progressive tbh.
So, I don't think they were holding him back or something.
As I mentioned previously, he died too early to formulate his complete vision of what Pakistan and its institutions needed to be. Or maybe he did, but there wasn't just enough time left for him to implement them.
 

Sanchez

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So, I have been planning to read on Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's personal life, his philosopies and world views. (like political and religious views)

Can you guys make some suggestions please? (English materials of course)
@Ryder @YeşilVatan @dBSPL @TR_123456 @Sanchez @Nutuk et al.
There are plenty of biographies, works for and against him you can read. But as stated, you really need to read Nutuk to get a glimpse of the man's psyche. This is said all the time and of course it is not the perfect book or anything(it was a 30 something hour long speech first), but it perfectly encapsulates both his mind and what the country went through in those tumultuous years. It's a must read for anyone interested really. Any others would basically fall in line after.
 

Afif

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There are plenty of biographies, works for and against him you can read. But as stated, you really need to read Nutuk to get a glimpse of the man's psyche. This is said all the time and of course it is not the perfect book or anything(it was a 30 something hour long speech first), but it perfectly encapsulates both his mind and what the country went through in those tumultuous years. It's a must read for anyone interested really. Any others would basically fall in line after.

Well, I definitely understood the significance of Nutuk for Ataturk and Turkish Republic, and I strongly intent to read it, but from my very incomplete initial reading what I understood is that, his personal views on various subjects like society, religion and some others had changed later in his life (in1930s) from what it was in 1920s.
Would that be accurate?
 

Nilgiri

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Amm, while I do believe that, Jinnah envisaged Pakistan as a 'homeland for India's Muslims, as opposed to an Islamic state', many would probbaly disagree. E.g. @Nilgiri (there are some interesting disscusions on this topic in 'Indian coffee house' thread)

I don't think it was about he lacking the power to implement his ideas. Rather, he just died too early, leaving behind an infant Nation.


One thing should be added though, Jinnah wasn't really Atatürk's caliber.

It is not like I am saying this because I don't like him that much, (our historic beef with Pakistan) Rather, in general I don't like the idea of equating pure political leaders (no matter how great they are) with commanders who lead the army and fought for their Nation in the battlefield with sweat and blood.

In my book, it is just a different level.
Specially, with Atatürk. Who had to fight multiple Superpowers to save his Nation.

Also, even though Modern day Pakistan portray Jinnah as the sole founding father of the Nation. In reality it was quite different. It would be more accurate to say Pakistan had Founding fathers. (In plural)


Again, it is not to undermine Jinnah's contribution to the formation of Pakistan and his leading role in it, (and I am grateful for him for that) but to point to the fact that, there were other crucial figures without whom Pakistan probably wouldn't have been possible. Among them are prominent Bengali politicians of that times. (Who are ussually ignored in today's history writings)

The fact that, the very party (Muslim league) that Jinnah lead to the formation of Pakistan, was founded in Dhaka by bengali stateman.

"Later that year, newspapers published a dispatch from Salimullah to various Muslim leaders around India urging them to form an all-India political party he called Muslim All India Confederacy,[6] and leaders of the Aligarh Movement requested him to convene the 20th meeting of the All India Mohammedan Educational Conference at his own cost. Over two thousand people covering Muslim leaders from all over India gathered at the Nawab's family garden-house in Shahbag, Dhaka for the conference held between 27 and 30 December 1906. On the last day, the assembly formed the All India Muslim League, appointing Nawab Salimullah the Vice President and placing him on a committee to craft its constitution."



Or for example, "The very Lahore Resolution, also called Pakistan resolution, (written and prepared by Muhammad Zafarullah Khan) was presented by A. K. Fazlul Huq, the Prime Minister of Bengal, was a formal political statement adopted by the All-India Muslim League on the occasion of its three-day general session in Lahore on 22–24 March 1940. The resolution called for independent states as seen by the statement:

The resolution was passed by the All India Muslim League at its annual session in Lahore on 23 March 1940. When Fazlul Huq arrived at the Lahore meeting, Muhammad Ali Jinnah remarked "When the tiger (Fazlul Huq) arrives, the lamb (Jinnah) must give away". Fazlul Huq formally proposed the resolution at the annual session.

Fazlul Huq was one of the founding statesmen of Pakistan due to his role in presenting the Lahore Resolution in 1940."



It is known that, Jinnah requested Fazlul Huq to present the Lahore Resolution/Pakistan Resolution as his support was deemed crucial.

Also, you can read about-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khawaja_Nazimuddin and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huseyn_Shaheed_Suhrawardy



Anyway, I didn't intent to burden you with Pakistan's history lessons, but looks like I almost wrote an article.

Yes Jinnah is very complicated figure, just like most of the contemporaries of the political movements of that time period.

It is long conversation I have had with folks like Joe Shearer and Saiyan. As well as many other wise Indians and Pakistanis in whatsapp groups I am part of.

The basic issue is the state was created as majoritarian-religion principle (for the Muslims of the subcontinent, where they were in majority).

Jinnah never shied away from this after his breakup with INC. He was congress party person originally, many forget...and held a fond protege identity w.r.t GK. Gokhale: https://www.thenews.com.pk/tns/detail/562382-jinnah-naoroji-gokhale

The breakup was due to (among souring personal and trust relationships that were fraying with other congress leaders) issue of separate electorate and minimum representations federally and so on (all on basis of religion).....that he was acting as interlocutor for many other muslim groups with the INC (who it was felt at the time were the apex of progressive self-rule movement from the British at the time).

He did have long term vision in some quotes where religion would become less relevant for Pakistan in the long term....but it stands in contrast to many other quotes he has also made (often brought up by subject matter experts like Ishtiaq Ahmed). Secularism cannot revovled around just one or two quotes (and ignoring the context why they were made).

What his feelings would have been w.r.t the flawed objectives resolution compromise (that many argue is the original sin of the Islamism in legal ideology and larger praxis that has since grown and expanded especially under Zia admin) put forward by the constituent assembly is of course unknown, as he passed away....and as you note his political power was and would have been limited whatever the constituent assembly proceeded.

It is schrodingers cat situation given his conflicting statements (they all have to be looked at, rather than selectively picking) and the fact he convened this constituent assembly (and knew well many of the legal minds within it and their positions)....they saw themselves as equal stakeholders to Pakistan's setup under the overall guidance of Jinnah.

It is all incredibly different to Ataturk. Ataturk saw religion was a poor binding glue given his experience with the Ottoman empire. Turkiye was not made a homeland for Ottoman empire's muslims (many co-religionists undermined and rebelled against Ottoman authority). It is almost an inverted raison d'etre used in Pakistan's proto-state ecosystem (to assert against INC especially as things came to a head in the 30s and 40s).

This is why Ataturk picked staunch secularism as the republic's founding (there was never any doubt, the equivalent of the constituent assembly were told in no uncertain terms it would be part of basic law/article of the consitution iirc)....and Ataturk was closely involved in the early republic for many number of years and wielded considerably political power to set up modern Turkiye's "breakfast" so to speak.
 

Saithan

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Hope they get proper info out of the terrorists and start pubishing them.
 

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Hope they get proper info out of the terrorists and start pubishing them.

20231001_105719.jpg


20231001_110536.jpg


A Russian rocket launcher (RPO-A Shmel) will be smuggled into Ankara and this guy will not be aware of it?

20231001_110137.jpg


Not even a licence plate on the vehicle

20231001_110909.jpg


Apparently it was driven from Kayseri to Ankara after the original owner was killed:


 
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B_A

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View attachment 61562

View attachment 61564

A Russian rocket launcher (RPO-A Shmel) will be smuggled into Ankara and this guy will not be aware of it?

View attachment 61563

Not even a licence plate on the vehicle

View attachment 61565

Apparently it was driven from Kayseri to Ankara after the original owner was killed:


The licensed weapon cant brought to the car but the illegal weapons everywhere
 

No Name

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This video raises some concerning points about how the global demographic crisis will affect developing countries like Türkiye which relies on wealthy European markets for it's trade.

 
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Ryder

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This video raises some concerning points about how the global demographic crisis will affect developing countries like Türkiye which relies on wealthy European markets for it's trade.


Recep Tayyip Erdogan will solve the problem dont worry
 

Afif

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Ryder

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Heartbang

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Care to warn us before an actual invasion begins?
Invasion? By these?
I can punt one of these half a click away, and I am lazy AF.
Someone with a decent physique could launch these into the lower orbit with their bare hands LMAO.
 

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