TR Air Defence Programs

[zio]

As far as I understand S400 is effected against tanker,cargo,heavy bomber,and awacs planes for long ranges,its not alternative to siper system,even you have to protect S400 with your own layered air defence systems.

 

[cookie-monster]

These are known things and this subject has been written and talked about a lot. It's pointless to discuss it here again, we can't learn the background of this government until it's gone. Either we shouldn't have bought it at all, or what's the point of getting the S-400 while the Samp-T is standing still? Is it because it's the most effective air defense system? It is also clear that there is no technology transfer, otherwise they would always shout.

Samp-t didn't have the required ability requested from our army. They shout technology transfer for inner political reason. But they also give in the first hand to raytheon without technology tranfer nor without a tender. But they got red handed. You have to understand to get s400 was an achivement.

 

[Heartbang]

Who would attack Turkiye and Ankara out of nowhere? Is it from NATO countries?

The Greeks. Its the Greeks.

At this point F-35 already launched its 8 SDB's to your S-400.. And also with F-35s radar electronic attack, that detection range will decrease more..

We have other systems to deal with those. Stuff like KORKUT. S-400 isn't a magic pill. The key to successfully do air defence is to line EVERYTHING you have, to EVERYWHERE you can. And preferably make them talk to each other. That's the definition of an Integrated Air Defence System. When you do it right even the B2's don't stand a chance. Even the F-117's are bound to fall, ask the Serbians.

You guys think a miserable air defense system will prevent the US to launch an attack ? American pilots are one of the best in the world when it comes to SEAD / DEAD missions.

Yeah, but the Greek pilots aren't.

its not alternative to siper system,even you have to protect S400 with your own layered air defence systems.

See above. I think we also bought S-125's from Ukraine as well to cover the S-400s.

The S-400 purchase over the F-35 was one of the biggest mistake Erdogan ever did. Full stop. Let’s not kid ourselves with useless conspiracy theories. The Air Force wanted that plane and this was for a good reason.

Google Michael Rubin. Try to find and read his 2010 report he gave to Pentagon. Then you'll understand.
Heck, here's an appetizer he tweeted two days ago:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603400324999512065

As far as I understand S400 is effected against tanker,cargo,heavy bomber,and awacs planes

That is true. And a rather ingenious way to use them IMO. Downing AWACS planes are, in the parlance of the youth, OPAF. Its like fighting with your eyes closed.

 

[Baryshx]

The Greeks. Its the Greeks.

Bruh, is it Greece? Is Greece in our weight? It never even occurred to me. Because it would be an embarrassing thought for me, it should be like that for everyone. We suffocate Greece with our spit.

 

[Heartbang]

Bruh, is it Greece? Is Greece in our weight? It never even occurred to me. Because it would be an embarrassing thought for me, it should be like that for everyone. We suffocate Greece with our spit.

TBH you have a fair point. But one must never underestimate a group of people in a zealous, fanatical fervor.
If you have doubts you could ask about it to ISIS members. Or PKK bigwigs. Or Zionists.

 

[what]

Let's stay on topic about our defence programs and move the discussion about who or what it will be needed against to the geopolitics thread.

 

[Afif]

HERE IS AN ROUGH ESTIMATION OF SIPER'S POTENTIAL CAPABILITY AGAINST STEALTH.

My calculation simlpy based on oficial press released information of both f35 and aselsan's STR. ( that's as far as i can get )

so firstly, f35 isn't all band stealth. Some fan boy gonna claim that. but that's not correct. Out side the S and X band domain f35's low observablity ( or for that matter, any stealth fighter's low observability ) decrease. So, the US Air Force's official press release about f35's RCS being size of a golf ball which mean 0.0015 is mostly related to S and X band domain.

Remamber, all the fire control radars siting on the noses of fighters are X band. And in case of ground based fire control radars they are also mostly between X and S bands and lately there are some are C band. ( note, I am not talking here about target illumination radars ).

Now let's talk about siper, 'tiny' ku band seeker can acquire low observable target if there is a two way data link which can guide the interceptor until the very last moment. ( So this isn't a big issue. And I think siper has a two way data link ) and also, in the future blocks siper is likely to gain a ka band seeker just like the one on aster 30 block 1nt. Which is very useful in acquiring low RCS targets.

Now, about STR, it can detect a Katyusha-type artillery rocket from 100km according to the defenceturkey.
AND CFAKR IS STATED TO HAVE SIMILAR BUILDING BLOCKS OF STR AND AIR RADARS.
which is not strange at all, as we see in some new gen FCRs as it can also act as weapon locating radar.
For example thales ground fire or ELTA ELM-2084. Both has 100km range for weapon locating capability.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...EQFnoECAkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw108cQ2jtyvA-U023jTRnNo

now, katyusha is 122mm rocket with a typical RCS of 0.1m. So when we do the math with f35's RCS to determine the detection and tracking range with fourth roots calculation, it is important to remamber that f35's said RCS ( 0.0015 ) is not all aspects but a frontal one. ( which is very useful against another fighter in head to head mode )

However, when the ground based CFKAR looks at f35 from a below Angel some surface area on the jet will be exposed which has less RCS than frontal section. And It is likely to be then somewhere in between 0.008m and 0.05m. So when we do the math based on that the detection and tracking range of an f35 for CFAKR will be somewhere in between 60 to 80 km.

Note, this is my personal opinion based on my personal knowledge. So don't take it too seriously.

 

[zio]

Detection of F35 is not too hard but targeting can be only made by x band so its too difficult.But airforces can work some tactics against lowRCS planes after detection.F35 RCS is getting worse against L band radars.but we have not any L band radar till now.

 

[Fighter_35]

The Greeks. Its the Greeks.

We have other systems to deal with those. Stuff like KORKUT. S-400 isn't a magic pill. The key to successfully do air defence is to line EVERYTHING you have, to EVERYWHERE you can. And preferably make them talk to each other. That's the definition of an Integrated Air Defence System. When you do it right even the B2's don't stand a chance. Even the F-117's are bound to fall, ask the Serbians.

Yeah, but the Greek pilots aren't.

See above. I think we also bought S-125's from Ukraine as well to cover the S-400s.

Google Michael Rubin. Try to find and read his 2010 report he gave to Pentagon. Then you'll understand.
Heck, here's an appetizer he tweeted two days ago:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1603400324999512065

That is true. And a rather ingenious way to use them IMO. Downing AWACS planes are, in the parlance of the youth, OPAF. Its like fighting with your eyes closed.

Do you even know what are you defending??
You support s-400 purchase but on the other hand you say that it requires our low altitude air defense system.
We don't need s400 to shoot down Greeks

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Detection of F35 is not too hard but targeting can be only made by x band so its too difficult.But airforces can work some tactics against lowRCS planes after detection.F35 RCS is getting worse against L band radars.but we have not any L band radar till now.

Mr Görgün: "We have produced radars in bands of VHF, UHF, S, L, C, X, Ku, Ka and even W band"

 

[Zafer]

Do you really think that 72 missiles ready to fire and this 35 km detection range is good enough to deter usa

No, but only to counter an initial salvo of attack. Our main insurance policy is that Israel is in our firing range.

 

[Heartbang]

You support s-400 purchase but on the other hand you say that it requires our low altitude air defense system.

Like I said, S-400 isn't a magic pill. But its anti stealth capabilites are much needed.

 

[Baryshx]

I think first we have to decide what we want, the army needs a consultant and a strategist. First to decide on China, then the American, then the Samp-T partnership and finally the Russian system? Do we make decisions based on what other people think? When we first decided on China, we would not come back from this decision.

 

[GoatsMilk]

I think first we have to decide what we want, the army needs a consultant and a strategist. First to decide on China, then the American, then the Samp-T partnership and finally the Russian system? Do we make decisions based on what other people think? When we first decided on China, we would not come back from this decision.

Americans threatened to blacklist internationally all Turkish companies that would work with the Chinese company, basically threatening to destroy your defence industry.

But this policy of bouncing around and moving like a belly dancer without thinking of the consequences has been a hallmark of the AK party years.

 

[Xenon54]

Do you really think that 72 missiles ready to fire and this 35 km detection range is good enough to deter usa

Ridiculous assesment here, USA would never go in Turkey the way they went into Iraq so the S-400 are useless for that scenario.

 

[Xenon54]

Doesn't mean they're not trying though, bless their hearts.

Did i miss a specific event where USA tried to invade Turkey?

 

[what]

Keep your conspiracy theories out of this thread. I said it before, on topic posts only.

 

[zio]

Is patriot PAC 3 can engage 1000km ballistic missile?This range is beginning of Medium range ballistic missiles.

 

[Radonsider]

Is patriot PAC 3 can engage 1000km ballistic missile?This range is beginning of Medium range ballistic missiles.

Depends on terminal phase, probably not or just in a very small dome, it can theoretically intercept non aerobalistic TBM/SRBMs (so not Tayfun) missiles around 36km

 

[Afif]

Is patriot PAC 3 can engage 1000km ballistic missile?This range is beginning of Medium range ballistic missiles.

Yes patriot can engage SRBM with a range up to 1000km.

Depends on terminal phase, probably not or just in a very small dome, it can theoretically intercept non aerobalistic TBM/SRBMs.

Actually, it can practically intercept quasi balistic missiles.
Remember it has 50G+ manuverbilty!
But, yes the dome is small and meant for one base. Not for an area defence.