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TR Air Defence Programs

Pokemonte13

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I'd really like it if Ukraine would send some of their drone specialist to perform against our AD systems, and get their input on how we could improve on them.

It'd be really awesome if we could deliver some Tolga systems to Ukraine.
I would like to know what the 20mm munition is because it looks like it detonates close to the target but i dont see any device at the muzzle for programming. Maybe proximity but that would make it more expensive that atom
 

Yasar_TR

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We are not, they are just talking for the sake of talking. You can say you consider anything you want, doesn't mean anything.
Bro that is a logical assessment.
But if we play devil’s advocate, could it be because we still could not manage to perfect Pif-Paf manoeuvring in missiles and by buying or joining a co-production cycle will help us. (Both pac3MSE and Aster30-B1NT missiles use pif-paf system. With limited TOT it could be advantageous)

However, Tubitak had already tested their FYDS (Füze Yönelim Değiştirme Sistemi, as shown in below article) whereby certain technologies obtained from this system was incorporated in to Bozdogan and Gokdogan missiles’ TVC systems.

It may well be that they were not quite at a position to fully apply it in missiles. So they need a bit of quick help.

It has to be remembered that even Aster30 B1NT missile’s pif-paf system is not really effective at very high and near space altitudes. They are still working on it with their Aster30 B2 missile that should be potentially effective against 3000km range IRBMs.


 

boredaf

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Bro that is a logical assessment.
But if we play devil’s advocate, could it be because we still could not manage to perfect Pif-Paf manoeuvring in missiles and by buying or joining a co-production cycle will help us. (Both pac3MSE and Aster30-B1NT missiles use pif-paf system. With limited TOT it could be advantageous)

However, Tubitak had already tested their FYDS (Füze Yönelim Değiştirme Sistemi, as shown in below article) whereby certain technologies obtained from this system was incorporated in to Bozdogan and Gokdogan missiles’ TVC systems.

It may well be that they were not quite at a position to fully apply it in missiles. So they need a bit of quick help.

It has to be remembered that even Aster30 B1NT missile’s pif-paf system is not really effective at very high and near space altitudes. They are still working on it with their Aster30 B2 missile that should be potentially effective against 3000km range IRBMs.


Oh, I fully believe this is the real reason why we want to get Samp-T, I just don't believe we are truly after the Patriot. Even with production increases the wait list is still obscenely long and I don't believe they ever do TOT (not that we would just take one apart to see what makes it tick); which was the main reason why we didn't get them in the first place iirc.

I would like to know what the 20mm munition is because it looks like it detonates close to the target but i dont see any device at the muzzle for programming. Maybe proximity but that would make it more expensive that atom
MKE keeps emphasising cost-efficiency, so, I think they are just going old fashioned like flak shells with timed fuses with a set distance (probably set at some distance before the given maximum distance), rather than programmable or proximity.
 

Pokemonte13

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MKE keeps emphasising cost-efficiency, so, I think they are just going old fashioned like flak shells with timed fuses with a set distance (probably set at some distance before the given maximum distance), rather than programmable or proximity.
Atom is more or less a time fuze the difference is that it is programmed once it leaves the barrel. Maybe it has like fixed time fuzes for different ranges (250m 500m 750m ...)and the rounds are programmed before being fired like in the belt.
 
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Oh, I fully believe this is the real reason why we want to get Samp-T, I just don't believe we are truly after the Patriot. Even with production increases the wait list is still obscenely long and I don't believe they ever do TOT (not that we would just take one apart to see what makes it tick); which was the main reason why we didn't get them in the first place iirc.
The reason could be totaly different,something like just business.
Economic reason,nothing to do with development or ability.
Produce all in Türkiye cheap.
So,just money.
 

UkroTurk

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Atom is more or less a time fuze the difference is that it is programmed once it leaves the barrel. Maybe it has like fixed time fuzes for different ranges (250m 500m 750m ...)and the rounds are programmed before being fired like in the belt.
Even if the time fuse operates with very high precision, it does not seem possible for the detonation to occur within half a second. I think the ammunition detonates at intervals of one second. Therefore, a time fuse cannot be set for distances such as 250 meters when used with high-velocity ammunition. I believe the detonation is set in minimum intervals of 500 meters. In any case, the system already calculates in advance where the target will pass.

A 35 mm caliber round probably reaches its effective range in about 3 seconds. Therefore, I think the time fuse can be adjusted to 6 different timing settings, with intervals of half a second.

They may have placed the sensor at the muzzle because they could not find a suitable place inside the weapon to install it.

In Gatling guns, installing a programming electronic device on each rotating barrel could create major technical problems. Because of this, our 20 mm Gatling CIWS engages targets only at 1 km. The effective range of the 20 mm Phalanx CIWS is already around 1.5 km, and the projectile reaches that distance in about 1.5 seconds. If, instead of a Gatling gun, it were a single revolver cannon, setting a detonation timing within such a short period would be unnecessary and difficult. I think the same applies to the 30 mm Canik VENOM LR. Short-range 20 mm and 30×113 ammunition will likely be factory-programmed to detonate at a range of 1 km and used in ready-to-fire condition.


On the other hand, today , old proximity fuse technology would not be expensive than time fusing.

İmagine, high RPM phalanx CIWS fires proximity fused 20mm . Would be Real monster.
 
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UkroTurk

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MKE keeps emphasising cost-efficiency, so, I think they are just going old fashioned like flak shells with timed fuses with a set distance (probably set at some distance before the given maximum distance), rather than programmable or proximity.
Yes you are right but flak AA systems didn't work with precise radars and didn't have high rate of fire.
They worked blind.

İmagine canik venom revolver cannon with new AESA radars how could hit precisely in 1km even the ammunition factory programmed.
 

mehmed beg

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Looks like Turkiye will be getting Sampt/T . After watching Romania and Greece feeding the Jewery with 5bn Euros in 48 hours, these frog geniuses, seemingly came to their senses.
Hopefully, some TOT will happen and some shared production.
 

Sanchez

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What is mls
Unsure, probably Maritime Launch Services. It's a Canadian space launch company. These videos are from the "look Trump, we are spending money for NATO" campaign of Rutte. They bundle up any and all deals that are being signed in the past and future 2 months and show a big shiny number.
 

Pokemonte13

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Unsure, probably Maritime Launch Services. It's a Canadian space launch company. These videos are from the "look Trump, we are spending money for NATO" campaign of Rutte. They bundle up any and all deals that are being signed in the past and future 2 months and show a big shiny number.
Was wondering because all non turkish companies are more of a start up than real producing companies. Would have given our companies most of the value but these are just national contracts and have more or less nothing to do with nato.
 

Bogeyman 

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At the heart of ÇELİKKUBE, the latest developments in the Oğulbey investment:

ASELSAN General Manager Ahmet Akyol:

"This is a $1.5 billion investment. Once completed, we're talking about a facility with 1 million square meters of enclosed space. Along with this, we are striving to produce our existing capabilities in higher quantities and expand them first to Türkiye and then to various friendly and allied countries. We commissioned a part of our Oğulbey investment in June."
 

MonteCarlo

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24 billion dollars budget for Steel Dome
An extra 24 billion dollars for celik kubbe.
Future budget allocation for the next 5-10 only for airdefence.
If this was in the west it wouldn't amount to much but for us that is like 60 billion dollars (PPP)
if a siper battery cost roughly 250 million that would amount to 96 batteries(just to show the scale)
Very nice amount but my main question is that what classifies as "Steel Dome component"? We have seen ES/EW systems classified as Steel dome delivery so is Koral and Hava Soj steel dome investment too? Is TF-2000 steel dome? Is a AKINCI with a Fulmar-500 steel dome? Because they all are going to be a part of it in some way.

What we are trying to do with steel dome is unifying are entire battle picture so anything that can detect or shoot will be part of steel dome in the end. So some better clarification on what counts as steel dome investment and what doesn't is needed
 
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Pokemonte13

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as far as i know steel dome is only land based systems including ew systems, radar... and not TF2000 otherwise its not such a large number. But still 24 billion for just air defence is good
 

Sanchez

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24 billion more than likely is not just systems purchases but also non recurring costs like new installations to build them etc. Aselsan is state owned; what Aselsan spends can easily be added as part of budgeting.

But indeed, this very fast almost lightning speed procurement spree will continue.
 

TheInsider

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It doesn't matter what costs are counted towards 24 billion. This is a huge amount. It is likely to be allocated for the next 10 years, so approximately $ 2.4 billion per year. We won't have any air defense problems by 2035. Erdoğan mentions 2030, but this is the target date to reach %5 total security spending (%3.5 armed forces %1.5 other spending), and it is not realistic to spend 4.8 billion per year on air defense.
 
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