TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[boredaf]

The tune bro! This tune!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1785595020055343507

We can also use Hürküş-2 as CAS in counter-terrorist operations like this, would probably be much more cost efficient than using jets and it might even help pilots.

 

[Kartal1]

We can also use Hürküş-2 as CAS in counter-terrorist operations like this, would probably be much more cost efficient than using jets and it might even help pilots.

I don't get the need for Hurkus-2 while we have attack helicopters and UCAVs with different specifications, configurations and low cost munitions. Both our attack helicopter fleet and UCAVs are doing a great job in CAS in all scenarios. They are also stationed close enough or already in the air in the case of the UCAVs where speed is not a big factor. The only factor limiting our low cost CAS is the bad weather conditions, fog.

If there is a threat of which the requirements are surpassing the capability of our existing helicopter and UCAV fleet, then the situation desperately needs a fighter jet to be dealt with.

That's my humble opinion.

 

[boredaf]

I don't get the need for Hurkus-2 while we have attack helicopters and UCAVs with different specifications, configurations and low cost munitions. Both our attack helicopter fleet and UCAVs are doing a great job in CAS in all scenarios. They are also stationed close enough or already in the air in the case of the UCAVs where speed is not a big factor. The only factor limiting our low cost CAS is the bad weather conditions, fog.

If there is a threat of which the requirements are surpassing the capability of our existing helicopter and UCAV fleet, then the situation desperately needs a fighter jet to be dealt with.

That's my humble opinion.

That's a completely reasonable and effective way of dealing with it as well.

My thinking was a Hürkuş could carry more and heavier munitions than our T-129s and we can blood our pilots before they even start their training in F-16s. Iirc, it can carry 1500kgs which means it can easily carry 6 MK-82s with guidance kits, or maybe even more Tolun's with Sadak 2T which would keep it at a good distance away from any threat (again, only against terrorists, not in an actual war) and they can operate from a longer range and would most definitely be safer than helicopters.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

We can also use Hürküş-2 as CAS in counter-terrorist operations like this, would probably be much more cost efficient than using jets and it might even help pilots.

HÜRKÜS C as a converted combat drone yes, but manned I would not send anyone into a conflict or war with turboprop aircraft. These are trainers or third world combat aircraft for their needs, e.g. for patrol and counter-terrorism.
Unfortunately, that doesn't work for us - the US supports the YPG/PKK, so we have to assume that they have state-of-the-art MANPADS and other effective equipment that can be used for asymmetric warfare en route.
The only thing that can help is observation with very high-flying HALE drones such as Akinci, Aksungur & Co. and marking the targets for a fighter jet mission or the elimination of these targets by the drone itself outside the radius of action of the MANPADS & Co.
The Hürküs C as a combat drone would make sense if they are stationed in Turkish bases on the Iraqi/Syrian border with temporary runways to fill the gap between an Akinci <- -> F-16, it would be faster to deploy compared to conventional drones and it is also again cheaper than a fighter jet deployment due to its speed & agility, it would also be an ideal complement to the Atak helicopters in support of ground forces.

 

[boredaf]

HÜRKÜS C as a converted combat drone yes, but manned I would not send anyone into a conflict or war with turboprop aircraft. These are trainers or third world combat aircraft for their needs, e.g. for patrol and counter-terrorism.
Unfortunately, that doesn't work for us - the US supports the YPG/PKK, so we have to assume that they have state-of-the-art MANPADS and other effective equipment that can be used for asymmetric warfare en route.
The only thing that can help is observation with very high-flying HALE drones such as Akinci, Aksungur & Co. and marking the targets for a fighter jet mission or the elimination of these targets by the drone itself outside the radius of action of the MANPADS & Co.
The Hürküs C as a combat drone would make sense if they are stationed in Turkish bases on the Iraqi/Syrian border with temporary runways to fill the gap between an Akinci <- -> F-16, it would be faster to deploy compared to conventional drones and it is also again cheaper than a fighter jet deployment due to its speed & agility, it would also be an ideal complement to the Atak attack helicopters in support of ground forces.

Mate, when I say close air support I'm not talking about a Vietnam style cas, or even using Cirit or UMTAS; I'm talking about using Tolun or MK-81/82 bombs with guidance kit to hit at targets way out of reach of any manpads, as I mentioned in my post above.

Still wouldn't be opposed to having a more agile drone like that as well though.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Mate, when I say close air support I'm not talking about a Vietnam style cas, or even using Cirit or UMTAS; I'm talking about using Tolun or MK-81/82 bombs with guidance kit to hit at targets way out of reach of any manpads, as I mentioned in my post above.

Still wouldn't be opposed to having a more agile drone like that as well though.

You right but regardless of this, it still makes more sense to use the Hürküs C as a drone in future combat scenarios than to fly it manned.
As you know, pilots don't grow on trees - they have years of training and experience in combat missions. Putting these people in a turboprop, regardless of whether they are out of range of the target, to have a risk of attack or not is still negligent. You can replace airplanes and drones, but not pilots, at least not as quickly.

 

[boredaf]

M

Regardless of this, it still makes more sense Hürküs C as a drone in future combat scenarios than to fly it manned.
As you know, pilots don't grow from trees - they have years of training and experience in combat missions. Putting these people in a turboprop regardless of whether they are out of range of the target to get a risk of attack or not is still negligent. You can't replace airplanes & drones with pilots, at least not as quickly.

Mate, a turboprop is faster, flies farther up and has more counter measures than our helis and can use heavier munition that is also cheaper. If all you care about is pilots lives, which I also care about which is why I mention long range engagements, then we need to immediately stop using our helis and F4s. I'm also not opposed to it as a drone either, but that would most likely need new design to be optimal.

But again, this is just an option that is worth considering imo; US, for example, ordered turboprops just a year or two ago to use with their special forces they are not as useless as you make them out to be.

 

[CAN_TR]

I don't get the need for Hurkus-2 while we have attack helicopters and UCAVs with different specifications, configurations and low cost munitions. Both our attack helicopter fleet and UCAVs are doing a great job in CAS in all scenarios. They are also stationed close enough or already in the air in the case of the UCAVs where speed is not a big factor. The only factor limiting our low cost CAS is the bad weather conditions, fog.

If there is a threat of which the requirements are surpassing the capability of our existing helicopter and UCAV fleet, then the situation desperately needs a fighter jet to be dealt with.

That's my humble opinion.

I don't think that the Air Force or the Army will consider armed Hürkus-2 for counter-terrorist operations, maybe the Gendarmerie.
Even for faster low-cost CAS i would prefer Akinci and Kizilelma/Anka3.


If the Police get's Hürkus-C then it wouldn't surprise me when they will demand KAAN in the future too, imagine stealth black painted 5th Gen. fighter with Polis written on, those drug dealers and other criminals should better think twice before doing something stupid.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

M

Mate, a turboprop is faster, flies farther up and has more counter measures than our helis and can use heavier munition that is also cheaper. If all you care about is pilots lives, which I also care about which is why I mention long range engagements, then we need to immediately stop using our helis and F4s. I'm also not opposed to it as a drone either, but that would most likely need new design to be optimal.

But again, this is just an option that is worth considering imo; US, for example, ordered turboprops just a year or two ago to use with their special forces they are not as useless as you make them out to be.

I see it the same way as you because they could fill the gap between fighter jet missions and drone missions, but I think the conversion in a drone really makes sense and should be feasible without changing the design too much. Where the cockpit is, you could remove everything and only install drone electronics and the SATCOM antennas, there should be enough space.
The USA has also done this, e.g. with the F-16 as the QF-16, without any major design changes.

 

[UkroTurk]

So guys i am ready to take punches!

I want manned light attack jets that max 2 ton weights and max 9 meter long. Speed is very important.

İt should be made from composite materials. Thanks to micro size and composite material the aircraft would have very low RCS so the attack aircraft should fly at very low altitude and at 0.85 mach or mach 1. İt doesn't need long range.

İt would be very cheap elementary first step of jet training. Then the second step will be Hürjets.




Currently just a human brain could infiltrate enemy lines and just a pilot could hunt ground targets at very high speed and low altitude.


The jet should have repositioned Compact AESA radar to detect stationary MBT, IFV, SAM systems artillery etc.. İt and also should carry just long range ATGMs.


The next step will be making this CAS jet unmanned so investment will be saved.

My Candidate platforms are

1)Marchetti s211 and 2)Foland Midge or GNAT

İmagine as if those light attack aircrafts had latest radars Sensors and UMTAS missiles. Then they would be unmanned.

SIAI-Marchetti S.211 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Folland Gnat - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Please remember Hürjet empty weight 4-5 tons and My offer is 2 ton light attack rapid aircrafts . Especially for MBT hunt. Micro Jet Flies rapidly at low altitude then AESA detects and UMTAS kills.

 

[boredaf]

So guys i am ready to take punches!

I want manned light attack jets that max 2 ton weights and max 9 meter long. Speed is very important.

İt should be made from composite materials. Thanks to micro size and composite material the aircraft would have very low RCS so the attack aircraft should fly at very low altitude and at 0.85 mach or mach 1. İt doesn't need long range.

İt would be very cheap elementary first step of jet training. Then the second step will be Hürjets.




Currently just a human brain could infiltrate enemy lines and just a pilot could hunt ground targets at very high speed and low altitude.


The jet should have repositioned Compact AESA radar to detect stationary MBT, IFV, SAM systems artillery etc.. İt and also should carry just long range ATGMs.


The next step will be making this CAS jet unmanned so investment will be saved.

View attachment 67714

View attachment 67715

My Candidate platforms are

1)Marchetti s211 and 2)Foland Midge or GNAT

İmagine as if those light attack aircrafts had latest radars Sensors and UMTAS missiles. Then they would be unmanned.

SIAI-Marchetti S.211 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

View attachment 67716

Folland Gnat - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

View attachment 67717

Please remember Hürjet empty weight 4-5 tons and My offer is 2 ton light attack rapid aircrafts . Especially for MBT hunt. Micro Jet Flies rapidly at low altitude then AESA detects and UMTAS kills.

So, you want to make a MANPADSbait? Why bother with something so convoluted at all when we have Karaok and OMTAS? In fact, OMTAS weighs 35kg or something like that, making a drone that is capable of carrying that would be cheaper, Karaok weighs even less. Why waste hundreds of thousands?

 

[UkroTurk]

So, you want to make a MANPADSbait? Why bother with something so convoluted at all when we have Karaok and OMTAS? In fact, OMTAS weighs 35kg or something like that, making a drone that is capable of carrying that would be cheaper, Karaok weighs even less. Why waste hundreds of thousands?

Good luck with your slow drones( MANPADSbait ) that would be blocked and jammed over battle in case of EW. Or you wouldn't fight against an Army that had this technology? Would your enemies be just African tribes?

Vice versa i offered relatively cheaper and ground attack aircraft rather than Hürjet.
According to you Hürkuş -C should be BS.

 

[boredaf]

Good luck with your slow drones( MANPADSbait ) that would be blocked and jammed over battle in case of EW. Or you wouldn't fight against an Army that had this technology? Would your enemies be just African tribes?

Vice versa i offered relatively cheaper and ground attack aircraft rather than Hürjet.
According to you Hürkuş -C should be BS.

I already said I wouldn't consider Hürkuş C in an actual war but in counter-terrorist operation, pay attention to what is written before lashing out mate. And close air support doesn't mean what it meant in WWII or Vietnam or even what it meant 20 years ago.

Trying to hunt tanks with a plane that costs, at best, several millions that's going to have to use atgms with low range makes zero sense, at least with drones small squads can launch them and hunt them on the ground and a drone that can carry let's say Karaok can spot and hit a tank from 2 or more kms away before ever being spotted. Ever tried spotting something that small from that far away? Not to mention, nobody is hunting a drone with manpads and if they did they'd actually be wasting money. On top of all this, those slow drones have already proven themselves capable even used as low tech as simply dropping grenades on tanks, multiple models in fact. What I'm suggesting is an upgrade on the concept.

And jammed and blocked?? You think we are going to use off the shelf drones or something? We already have drones that are resistant to jamming, any drone we might make from now on that might be used in an actual war will be the same.

 

[UkroTurk]

@boredaf
Armies uses today MBTs which cost 5 million USD ( as same as Bayraktar TB-2)per unit for what? To be destroyed by ATGM? 5millionusd MBT hunts T72 tank where the battle field is full of ATGMs.
So stop producing Expensive MBTs just buy Bayraktar TB-2? Would it be logical?

Regarding EW , there is not just Datalink jamming. İf you jamm GPS signals over your country, any drone could not fly autonomously. BTW Jamming TB-2 is always possible. they can't autonomously find the own and target position.Thats why modern armies also need manned attack aircrafts.

Why EF typhoons(150million USD and manned) are loaded with Brimstone missiles? What is the range of Brimstones? You wouldnt use UMTAS on F-16s but Brits do it

the manned anti armor or CAS jet has own advantages.

İt is obvious Hürjet is expensive and has big RCS and IIR signature while Hürkuş is slower. Enemy can't detect every little flying object at low altitude.

My dream light attack jet wouldnt cost more than two or three Korean MBT.
Folland midge

The Smallest attack jet just two ton

Or the Marchetti s211 which is modern and operational one

 

[boredaf]

Armies uses today MBTs which cost 5 million USD ( as same as Bayraktar TB-2)per unit for what? To be destroyed by ATGM? 5millionusd MBT hunts T72 tank where the battle field is full of ATGMs.
So stop producing Expensive MBTs just buy Bayraktar TB-2? Would it be logical?

This is completely nonsensical. Yes, tanks are destroyed by atgms, just as they were destroyed by anti-tank guns and rockets before that, why is so radical about that? Just because a system has a countermeasure it doesn't mean you stop using that. If that were true, infantry would've been deleted from the battlefield ages ago. Ukrainians destroyed numerous Russians tanks using javelins, which is an expensive system but not expensive as the tank itself and certainly wouldn't be as expensive as making a light attack jet fighter.

Regarding EW , there is not just Datalink jamming. İf you jamm GPS signals over your country, any drone could not fly autonomously. BTW Jamming TB-2 is always possible. they can't autonomously find the own and target position.Thats why modern armies also need manned attack aircrafts.

Sure, but did I say "we should ditch the planes completely and go broke on drones!"? No, I didn't. Sure, jamming might work against drones but multiple other threats work against a plane that flies low and has to go into range of enemy air defences to do its work.

Why EF typhoons(150million USD and manned) are loaded with Brimstone missiles? What is the range of Brimstones? You wouldnt use UMTAS on F-16s but Brits do it

Eurofighter has never fought within a war where it faced an enemy that had a functioning air defence systems or manpads. And Brimstones range is more than twice of UMTAS, 20 km vs 8 km, and that is if they haven't started producing the new version which was going to improve the range even further, but I don't know what happened with that. But still, I would *love* to see them try to use Brimstones against anyone with functioning air defences, it would make for some hilarious videos seeing them get into that range.

My dream light attack jet wouldnt cost more than two or three Korean MBT.

So, you're dream light attack jet would cost somewhere between 16 to 24 million dollars, which would have to somehow survive against an enemy with air defence and so many manpads that they can shoot drones with it. While we already have systems that can kill tanks and can be adopted into other platforms for much cheaper. Okay then, let's agree to disagree and you keep dreaming mate.

 

[uçuyorum]

Sounds like a job for drones. Why go backwards?

 

[dBSPL]

Good luck with your slow drones( MANPADSbait ) that would be blocked and jammed over battle in case of EW. Or you wouldn't fight against an Army that had this technology? Would your enemies be just African tribes?

Vice versa i offered relatively cheaper and ground attack aircraft rather than Hürjet.
According to you Hürkuş -C should be BS.

It can also play a fighter role against low maneuver but long endurance high-altitude drones. Almost every air force in the world tends to solve ISTAR roles as well as some armed air support roles with UAVs more and more. While these systems offer significant advantages in terms of sustainment cost and endurance, they are very vulnerable to airborne threats with current typical payloads climbing capabilities and AoE. So It can be a tank destroyer, as well as nightmare to all rotary wing systems and piston/prop UCAVs.

 

[UkroTurk]

There's no harm in dreaming but it’s harmful not to dream.

@dBSPL you said well "ISTAR"




Even this has unmanned module!!!

Aeralis unveils common core fuselage design for modular aircraft family

UK developer Aeralis has unveiled the common core fuselage design that will be at the heart of its modular family of military aircraft, with the structure on display at the DIMDEX exhibition in Doha, Qatar.

www.flightglobal.com

AERALIS Unveils First Variants of Light Jet Aircraft

The new light jet aircraft will have a first-of-its-kind wing architecture consisting of an inner wing and an outer wing to ensure manoeuvrability at both low and high speeds – giving the aircraft transonic capability.

www.halldale.com

I want baby Hürjets

I quit....

 

[dBSPL]

The tweet was deleted. We should, maybe, not read too much into it. I watched some of the interview. I guess the poster of the tweet has paraphrased Güler's words "Yapıcaz. Yapıcaz." at 17:03 in the video(I timestamped it).

The defense minister says in part of the interview that they will acquire additional A400Ms. (26:30)

 

[Kartal1]

Minister of National Defense Yasar Guler announced that there may be additional A400M transport aircraft procurement for the Turkish Air Force.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1786109886352261625