TR Aircraft Carrier & Amphibious Ship Programs

[Anmdt]

On the AC turbine propulsion:

A possible marine version of the upcoming Kaan engine will likely have more power than the GE LM2500 engines so a shift from 4 turbine engines to 2 turbines like the HMS QE2 can be possible given the amount of time there is to the building timeline of the MUG.

See this and let's talk again:

 

[Zafer]

See this and let's talk again:
View attachment 67649

What do you mean, diesel versus turbine efficiency?

 

[Anmdt]

What do you mean, diesel versus turbine efficiency?

SFOC curve of gas turbines is not linear, there is a reason why we have combined propulsion units instead of a single engine to do it all. To operate engines most efficiently at two desired RPM and power output. At cruise speed (maximum range) 2 50 MW GT would consume more than 4 25 MW (according to the given graph) thus lowering the available range.

There is also LM6000 (however i doubt if it is for military use) and Navies would have opted for this if they needed less engines.

 

[Zafer]

SFOC curve of gas turbines is not linear, there is a reason why we have combined propulsion units instead of a single engine to do it all. To operate engines most efficiently at two desired RPM and power output. At cruise speed (maximum range) 2 50 MW GT would consume more than 4 25 MW (according to the given graph) thus lowering the available range.

There is also LM6000 (however i doubt if it is for military use) and Navies would have opted for this if they needed less engines.

Turbines work with their best efficiency between 90% and 100+% throttle but for some reason the UK went for a twin RR engine. Probably because it is UK made instead of American. Same applies to us if we can have our own engines we can mix and match as we wish. Smaller engines with large engines and diesel with turbine. We need to make marine diesel engines for whips as well. There was an initiative about it which we haven't heard about in years.

 

[Anmdt]

Turbines work with their best efficiency between 90% and 100+% but for some reason the UK went for a twin RR engine. Probably because it is UK made instead of American. Same applies to us if we can have our own engines we can mix and match as we wish. Smaller engines with large engines and diesel with turbine. We need to make marine diesel engines for whips as well. There was an initiative about it which we haven't heard about in years.

It has 2 x GT, 4 x DE and IEP, none of these are driving propellers mechanically.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

April 25, 2024 Topic: Security Region: Europe Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: TurkeyTurkish NavyAircraft CarrierNATOMilitaryDefenseAircraft Carriers
Turkey: The Next Aircraft Carrier Superpower?

NATO ally Turkey could become the latest nation to operate aircraft carriers.
by Peter Suciu Follow PeterSuciu on Twitter L

Summary: Turkey is advancing its naval capabilities by developing its second aircraft carrier, following the commissioning of the TCG Anadolu, a multipurpose amphibious assault ship, into the Turkish Navy.

-Modeled after Spain’s Juan Carlos I but with significant domestic production, the TCG Anadolu represents a step towards greater naval autonomy for Turkey.

-The new carrier, which will be entirely domestically designed and built, aims to further demonstrate Turkey's self-reliance in naval construction. This upcoming vessel will feature three runways and initially use a modular ramp system, with plans to develop an indigenous catapult system. Designed to support a mix of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles, the carrier will have a significant airwing capacity and be equipped with advanced defensive systems, emphasizing Turkey’s commitment to expanding its maritime strength and capabilities.
Turkey Advances Naval Power with Plans for Second Domestically Built Aircraft Carrier

NATO ally Turkey could become the latest nation to operate aircraft carriers—and this month, the Turkish Navy’s Istanbul Naval Shipyard revealed the latest developments of its future flattop. This clarified the confusion that this new warship was the second landing helicopter dock (LHD).

It was last year that the TCG Anadolu multipurpose amphibious assault ship was commissioned into the Turkish Navy. That warship was modeled after Spain’s Juan Carlos I LHD but was built with 70 percent domestic production. According to Turkish officials, a team of some 110 individuals at the Directorate of Design Project Office (DPO) is already exploring ways to increase the domestic production ratio for the new national aircraft carrier.
Turkey’s First Carrier

Designed to be the Turkish Navy’s new flagship, the multipurpose amphibious assault ship TCG Anadolu (Turkish for the Anatolian peninsula) was also meant to represent the “Century of Türkiye,” President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said at a ceremony last April, adding, “The TCG Anadolu ... is the world’s first warship in its field where UAVs can land and take off.”

The TCG Anadolu measures 231 meters (758 feet) in length and 32 meters in width, while it has a displacement of 27,436 tons. It was ordered in 2015 and launched in April 2019. However, its inauguration, initially planned for 2021, was delayed due to the COVID-19 pandemic. It was officially commissioned in the ceremony on April 10, 2023.

She can reach a top speed of 21 knots and a range of 9,000 nautical miles, with an endurance of fifty days at sea. The warship can carry 1,400 personnel—a battalion of soldiers/marines, along with combat vehicles and support equipment.

The TCG Anadolu was originally intended to support helicopters and short takeoff and vertical landing (STOVL) fighters, notably the Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning II, but the flattop’s role evolved following Turkey’s expulsion from the F-35 program in 2019 due to the acquisition of Russian-made S-400 air defense systems.
Turkey’s Aircraft Carriers: Something Bigger?

At a January 3, 2024, meeting of the Turkish Defense Industry Executive Committee, Erdogan gave the green light for a second carrier, while plans were approved for the construction of the M LGEM 9-10-11-12th ships (I-class frigates), offshore patrol vessels, new types of landing ships, and new generation minehunters.

Details are now emerging about the second carrier. The DPO has said it will not receive any support from a foreign country in its design and construction. Instead, it will be built entirely domestically, showcasing Turkey’s self-reliance in this significant naval project.

Early designs suggest it will include three runways, with two designated for takeoff and one for landing purposes. Initially, there will be no catapult system onboard, and instead, the DPO has called for a modular ramp—while the long-term plan involves the development of an indigenous catapult system by Turkish engineers.

Moreover, the current plans call for the carrier to support an airwing of fifty aircraft, with twenty to be stationed on the deck and thirty more housed in the hangar. It is envisaged that both manned and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) of domestic origin will be deployed on the new aircraft carrier.

Among these aircraft are the naval version of TAI’s Hurjet light attack aircraft, TAI ANKA-III unmanned jet fighter, Baykar’s Bayraktar KIZILELMA unmanned jet fighter, and TB-3 UCAV. According to Defence Turkey, Turkish defense officials have indicated that the number of aircraft may be increased as the project progresses. DPO is in touch with TAI and Baykar for the project, NavalNews.com reported.

The domestically-built Turkish carrier could be reasonably armed, with a 32-cell MIDLAS VLS (Vertical Launching System), and four Gökdeniz Close-in Weapon systems for self-defense.

The design calls for it to be 285 meters (935 feet) in length with a displacement of 60,000 tons. Additionally, the carrier will be equipped with Combined Gas Turbine and Gas Turbine (COGAG) propulsion, ensuring a maximum speed of 25 knots.
Author Experience and Expertise: Peter Suciu

Peter Suciu is a Michigan-based writer. He has contributed to more than four dozen magazines, newspapers, and websites with over 3,200 published pieces over a twenty-year career in journalism. He regularly writes about military hardware, firearms history, cybersecurity, politics, and international affairs. Peter is also a Contributing Writer for Forbes and Clearance Jobs. You can follow him on Twitter: @PeterSuciu. You can email the author: [email protected].

Turkey: The Next Aircraft Carrier Superpower?

Summary: Turkey is advancing its naval capabilities by developing its second aircraft carrier, following the commissioning of the TCG Anadolu, a multipurpose amphibious assault ship, into the Turkish Navy. -Modeled after Spain’s Juan Carlos I but with significant domestic production, the TCG...

nationalinterest.org

 

[Anmdt]

It has 2 x GT, 4 x DE and IEP, none of these are driving propellers mechanically.

And I believe we will possibly see CODELAG / COGELAD (some refers to as CODLAG) propulsion system as the design evolves, definitely not IEP but semi-IEP with generators either spared for propulsion or to supply electric generation. This eases exhaust funnel design as well, and provides safer propulsion (with diesels-only) at certain geographic areas of interest.

 

[Zafer]

And I believe we will possibly see CODELAG / COGELAD (some refers to as CODLAG) propulsion system as the design evolves, definitely not IEP but semi-IEP with generators either spared for propulsion or to supply electric generation. This eases exhaust funnel design as well, and provides safer propulsion (with diesels-only) at certain geographic areas of interest.

They better make something good.

If there is battery power in the propulsion system this can also be used for powering DC electric powered magnetic catapults among other things. I would suggest exploring the possibility of explosive powered and compressed air powered catapult systems as an alternative. Not that I have seen examples of them but those systems can remedy the lack of electric powered catapults and maybe even outperform them.

 

[Anmdt]

They better make something good.

If there is battery power in the propulsion system this can also be used for powering DC electric powered magnetic catapults among other things. I would suggest exploring the possibility of explosive powered and compressed air powered catapult systems as an alternative. Not that I have seen examples of them but those systems can remedy the lack of electric powered catapults and maybe even outperform them.

Battery is simply ineffective for ship propulsion (too much space for too little propulsion - minimum 20 MW of electric motor will be needed on each propeller, do the computation from there), its best use could be for EMALS if they ever implement it. The cause of conversion will be separating funnels of generators and direct propulsion units and easing IR management and cooling systems. Collecting all the funnels and air intakes at one spot first increases IR greatly and complicates the deck arrangement. The ship will require enormous amount of generator.

 

[Zafer]

Battery is simply ineffective for ship propulsion (too much space for too little propulsion - minimum 20 MW of electric motor will be needed on each propeller, do the computation from there), its best use could be for EMALS if they ever implement it. The cause of conversion will be separating funnels of generators and direct propulsion units and easing IR management and cooling systems. Collecting all the funnels and air intakes at one spot first increases IR greatly and complicates the deck arrangement. The ship will require enormous amount of generator.

For propulsion battery maybe under-powered but considering all the onboard systems they will have to accommodate some battery capacity I guess. EMALS is pretty much the way to go as we have a number of different unmanned systems that can benefit from them. Below are some but there must be more coming in many different sizes over time. While many carrier borne planes weigh 25 to 30 tons our intended planes are much lighter so it shouldn't be too hard to make a catapult system even in time for initial commissioning of the ship.

Hürjet_____12 000 kg
Kızılelma___8 500 kg
Anka3______7 000 kg
Akıncı______6 000 kg
TB3________1 450 kg

 

[TheInsider]

They better make something good.

If there is battery power in the propulsion system this can also be used for powering DC electric powered magnetic catapults among other things. I would suggest exploring the possibility of explosive powered and compressed air powered catapult systems as an alternative. Not that I have seen examples of them but those systems can remedy the lack of electric powered catapults and maybe even outperform them.

Batteries can't power EMALS. You need supercapacitors for that.

 

[Zafer]

Batteries can't power EMALS. You need supercapacitors for that.

Supercapacitor batteries then.
Technically a battery is a batch of cells that carry charge, so.

 

[Anmdt]

Supercapacitor batteries then.
Technically a battery is a batch of cells that carry charge, so.

Actually:

Q: What’s the power-supply chain look like?


A: The pulse-power and overall energy needs of the linear motor are well beyond what batteries or a conventional generator could deliver. Instead, the power produced by the generators is stored kinetically in rotors spinning at 6,400 rpm. To launch, this rotor-based kinetic energy is drawn off and converted to electrical power in a two- to three-second pulse. As the kinetic energy is drawn from the rotors, they slow down and their remaining available energy drops. The generator needs 45 seconds between launches to “recharge” the rotors by spinning them back up to capacity, ready to deliver another burst of power.

 

[Zafer]

Actually:

OK I know that part, I did my refresher reading yesterday but that is only the American way. Americans are using an alternating current system while Chinese are making a direct current system which can safely be assumed to be using supercapacitors or a combination of supercapacitors and chemical batteries. EMALS can launch up to 45.000 kg, way above what we initially want for our ship. The Chinese way is more suitable for our low power needs. It would be ideal to use magnetic catapults given that acceptable recharge times are achieved. However there could probably be other ways to achieve faster cycle times like compressed air or compressed gas as well.

 

[Anmdt]

OK I know that part, I did my refresher reading yesterday but that is only the American way. Americans are using an alternating current system while Chinese are making a direct current system which can safely be assumed to be using supercapacitors or a combination of supercapacitors and chemical batteries. EMALS can launch up to 45.000 kg, way above what we initially want for our ship. The Chinese way is more suitable for our low power needs. It would be ideal to use magnetic catapult given that acceptable recharge times are achieved. However there could probably be other ways to achieve faster cycle times like compressed air or compressed gas as well.

Americans have been working on this for longer than Chinese (and we do not know of their R&D stage), they have fielded it while Chinese are still on trials. We will see which one works better.

 

[Zafer]

Americans have been working on this for longer than Chinese (and we do not know of their R&D stage), they have fielded it while Chinese are still on trials. We will see which one works better.

Americans are expecting to get to their targeted failure rates and overall maturity of their system by 2030.

The earliest way of seeing which one works better is to start making one for ourselves.

I would experiment with compressed gas while also developing an electromagnetic launcher.

 

[TheInsider]

Supercapacitor batteries then.
Technically a battery is a batch of cells that carry charge, so.

They are inherently different. A supercapacitor provides a high current over a short time (seconds). The thrust of the electromagnetic catapult scales with the current. The higher the current the bigger the pushing force of EMALS. Supercapacitors can provide insanely high instantaneous currents over a short time and can be quickly charged back for another discharge. Batteries provide a low current over a long time. They discharge slowly over time and charge slowly. They hold more energy per volume compared to supercapacitors. A bunch of cells comes together to form a "battery", and a bunch of supercapacitors forms a "bank".

American requirement of accelerating 45000kg to 240km/h complicates things our carrier will be much smaller than an American supercarrier and our launch weight will also be much lighter.

 

[Zafer]

They are inherently different. A supercapacitor provides a high current over a short time (seconds). The thrust of the electromagnetic catapult scales with the current. The higher the current the bigger the pushing force of EMALS. Supercapacitors can provide insanely high instantaneous currents over a short time and can be quickly charged back for another discharge. Batteries provide a low current over a long time. They discharge slowly over time and charge slowly. They hold more energy per volume compared to supercapacitors. A bunch of cells comes together to form a "battery", and a bunch of supercapacitors forms a "bank".

American requirement of accelerating 45000kg to 240km/h complicates things our carrier will be much smaller than an American supercarrier and our launch weight will also be much lighter.

In recent years they made hybrid supercapacitors to combine the better features of capacitors and batteries. Batteries can also be used to charge supercapacitors faster than mains supply alone. Still there maybe a wait time between full charges and there maybe a quicker way of launching planes using compressed air or using hot gasses from explosive charges, as a science project.

 

[dBSPL]

This is HUGE!

Minister of National Defense Güler:

''Türkiye can no longer fit into its container. One end is in Somalia, one end is in Bosnia, one end is in Azerbaijan, and the other end is in Central Asia... Turkey is now in these geographies. Therefore, the Turkish Army needs everything.

We are building larger aircraft carriers. "We will also build a plane that takes off and lands vertically."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1786072685690191999

The defense ministry's interest in navalized aircraft with vertical landing capability is very big news, but I think the real punch line in this statement is the other, 'TAF needs everything.' The development of indigenous capacity will encourage the defense bureaucracy more and more every day, and the process will proceed exponentially from here. I mean this everything includes strategic deterrence to guarantee the survival of the country. We don't need to write it explicitly, we all know it and that's enough.

 

[Rodeo]

The defense ministry's interest in navalized aircraft with vertical landing capability is very big news, but I think the real punch line in this statement is the other, 'TAF needs everything.' The development of indigenous capacity will encourage the defense bureaucracy more and more every day, and the process will proceed exponentially from here. I mean this everything includes strategic deterrence to guarantee the survival of the country. We don't need to write it explicitly, we all know it and that's enough.

The tweet was deleted. We should, maybe, not read too much into it. I watched some of the interview. I guess the poster of the tweet has paraphrased Güler's words "Yapıcaz. Yapıcaz." at 17:03 in the video(I timestamped it).