TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[boredaf]

And put a bullet into the MMU project

You're exaggerating way too much, to the point of sounding hysterical. We are not going to stop or slow down TF-X just because we buy 4.5 gen jets, that is absolutely ridiculous. But if something did happen to cause it to slow down, we'd be caught with our pants down and asses hanging in the air if we did nothing to increase the number of our aircraft.

Hürjet hasn't even flown yet, KE only made 2 flights and we haven't even seen what TİUS actually looks like yet you are talking about them as if they are ready and combat proven. We need new jets, be it Eurofighter or F-16 while we wait for these programs to mature and start serial production and see how good they actually are.

And it's not like we are the only country on the planet that is still buying 4.5 gen jets, most of them are including the ones that have 5th gen.

 

[Nutuk]

Okay I see your opinion and I admire that.
But what if an unexpected conflict occurs between Tr and Gr ?
What we're gonna do then ? Ask Greece to wait for our national fighers to come ? Our airforce officersare ones to evaluate the threat and seek for solutuions.

I say let's trust our air force authorities. And their desicions. They might see a possible threat incoming years and they're preparing some measures for it.

No one's willing to jeopardise TFX project. Especially air force.

First of all Greece we do not need extra aircraft for that, we can completely disassemble Greece with drones (Kizilelma, TISU)

Secondly what is the EU gonna do, with every straining, crisis (I am not even talking about a war yet) we get EU sanctions and you won't be able to use EF2000 due to lack of spare.

Sorry but there is no any logic in buying these planes (my personal opinion) unless someone can clearly point out there will be no case of EU sanctions.

 

[Agha Sher]

One thing that I agree with Nutuk on is Turkiye exposing herself to even more German sanctions. They Altay powerpack saga should be enough to discourage Turkiye from averything with a german say.

 

[Nutuk]

You're exaggerating way too much, to the point of sounding hysterical. We are not going to stop or slow down TF-X just because we buy 4.5 gen jets, that is absolutely ridiculous. But if something did happen to cause it to slow down, we'd be caught with our pants down and asses hanging in the air if we did nothing to increase the number of our aircraft.

Hürjet hasn't even flown yet, KE only made 2 flights and we haven't even seen what TİUS actually looks like yet you are talking about them as if they are ready and combat proven. We need new jets, be it Eurofighter or F-16 while we wait for these programs to mature and start serial production and see how good they actually are.

And it's not like we are the only country on the planet that is still buying 4.5 gen jets, most of them are including the ones that have 5th gen.

Who includes them?

US? Yeah they can, since their own companies produce them.

Name me one country who goes for 5th generation and includes also new purchases of 4th generation. Israel is the only one going for F15EX and that is because of the range, do we get more range with EF above F16?

Anyway this turns into opinions with me putting forth reason why EF is nonsense vs opinions that can not put any sane explanations why we should have them

 

[No Name]

There are a few aspects to consider with eurofighter deal.

1. MMU has still a good while to start making deliveries. If first deliveries are made about 2030 it will still take a couple years to deliver initial batch. Then I imagine there would be some time before the next block starts serial production and ends deliveries. I think at this point we are talking 2035-2040 for 100+ TFX, if we take the 24 planes a year calculation from Temel Kotil. Even if we modernise all F16s that we have, without new ones delivered, and F4s retired, some of our F16s will be stretched thin and age even faster. If our fighter fleet drops below 200s that wouldn’t be nice. So one way or another, even if its costly, injection of new platforms that excel in air to air capabilities is very important. Since drones help with A2G capabilities significantly, we should’t worry much about that. But don’t forget eurofighters and f16s will still have to last into 2040s because we won’t have 300 TFX to replace entire fleet before then with even the most optimistic estimates.

2. We still want to be part of international projects and have alternatives, as well as keep good relations with other states and give them incentive to keep their relations positive with us. This is also important for keeping up with technology and methods used by other countries.

3. However, we still don’t know if other members of eurofighter consortium will not present us with embargoes about munitions and spare parts if they authorise the initial sale at all.

4. Eurofighters and F16 use different aerial refueling methods. Will we also have to buy new refueling planes? Will we even be sold any?

5. As far as money is concerned, I think we are willing to buy any acceptable plane even if it is very costly, because it is very critical for us, even if sacrifices must be made. So much is wasted on things we don’t need, I’m sure we can come up with the money for such a vital issue.

Temel Kotil said that they will produce two TF-X jets per month starting in 2029/2030 so I do not understand why you think it will take a couple of years to deliver the initial batch?

 

[No Name]

Do you guys think that Turkey can use the EF deal to get its foot in the door for the Global combat air programme?

 

[uçuyorum]

Temel Kotil said that they will produce two TF-X jets per month starting in 2029/2030 so I do not understand why you think it will take a couple of years to deliver the initial batch?

How many F110s will be delivered? Also probably LRIP for first block rather than full serial production.

 

[Oublious]

I can not find reliable sources about the deal, so lets wait and see .

 

[Oublious]

according to Ragip Soylu we are thinking about it...

fak it and buy the damn fighter...

lets buy 1 time Ason Martin and not Ford from Americans....

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-uk-massive-arms-deal-planes-ships-tank-engines

 

[Brokengineer]

I do not know any possible engine to fit tfx from rr. There is currently none to fill the needs of tfx programme which is 35k lbf class.
However, the deal could be utilized for the hürjet, Kızılelma or Anka 3 programme.
As for all the negotiations going with Brits, we now that thyphoons are essential part of it.

 

[Heartbang]

lets buy 1 time Ason Martin and not Ford from Americans...

Ford owned Aston Martin for 20 years...

 

[Huelague]

You simply don't do bazaar tactics from government to government, this is not a bazaar!

Who is politicizing it, you talk about it!

Pure technically, it is utmost stupid to go for 30 year old ships and we also do not need eurofighters with all the European snub that will come along. There will be some who will say but we are buying from the British, yeah as if that is different. How many times did Britain not give us the ships we paid for, a little bit history may open some eyes.

This interim talk is also very lose, if we want deterrence, the question is against whom? Against Russia? Russia has broken her teeth on Ukraine. Against Greece? Don't make me laugh!

Iran, Russia, Greecd, Egypt, Israel...maybe none of them are a match for us. But together they can create big problems. Even they are not acting together.

 

[Isbara]

First of all Greece we do not need extra aircraft for that, we can completely disassemble Greece with drones (Kizilelma, TISU)

Secondly what is the EU gonna do, with every straining, crisis (I am not even talking about a war yet) we get EU sanctions and you won't be able to use EF2000 due to lack of spare.

Sorry but there is no any logic in buying these planes (my personal opinion) unless someone can clearly point out there will be no case of EU sanctions.

Sorry but I do disagree with your statement above.
TISU, Kizilelma are just early prototypes. We do not have them in our inventory with large numbers. Also, their role and capabilites are still unclear. Even though they're capable platforms, we still need an absolute air superiority over the Aegan to operate those aircrafts properly. Most optimistic scenario those planes will be ready and available in our inventory with limited numbers in 2027 or 2028. And a squadron of F16 B70's if US congress approves the sale. Meanwhile Greece will have 24 Rafales (May be more), 80 F16 B70's and they are going to receive 2 or 6 F35's.

About the EU issue even though i agree with you, i also see a good opportunity on our good relations with UK. I don't think that EU wants to ruin UK's sales. Because UK could do the same too. On the other hand, I do not assume other EF partners have problems about this sale except Germany. Italy and Spain will be okay with this.

And do not think about Greece only. Threats on our location are on the Rise. We have no idea when we find ourselves in an escalation in Syria again. Against YPG or Iranian militias. Iran might raise the bet by using their new Su-35's etc. It is heating up so fast around our country. To be ready for fight is not enough. We should be deterring against our foes also.

One more thing, we do not know how long we can operate our F4-2020 Terminator's more, which were already exceeded their lifespan. Work load on our F16 fleet is insane. We should also decrease their flight times too. We need to protect our F16 fleet as much as possible.

In short, we need any capable air craft we can get. And we need them immediately.

 

[Brokengineer]

Sorry but I do disagree with your statement above.
TISU, Kizilelma are just early prototypes. We do not have them in our inventory with large numbers. Also, their role and capabilites are still unclear. Even though they're capable platforms, we still need an absolute air superiority on the Aegan to operate those aircrafts properly. Most optimistic scenario those planes will be ready and available in our inventory with limited numbers in 2027 or 2028. And a squadron of F16 B70's if US congress approves the sale. Meanwhile Greece will have 24 Rafales (May be more), 80 F16 B70's and they are going to receive 2 or 6 F35's.

About the EU issue even though i agree with you, i also see a good opportunity on our good relations with UK. I don't think that EU wants to ruin UK's sales. Because UK could do the same too. On the other hand, I do not assume other EF partners have problems about this sale except Germany. Italy and Spain will be okay with this.

And do not think about Greece only. Threats on our location are on the Rise. We have no idea when we find ourselves in an escalation in Syria again. Against YPG or Iranian militias. Iran might raise the bet by using their new Su-35's etc. It is heating up so fast around our country. To be ready for fight is not enough. We should be deterring against our foes also.

One more thing, we do not know how long we can operate our F4-2020 Terminator's more, which were already exceeded their lifespan. Work load on our F16 fleet is insane. We should also decrease their flight times too. We need to protect our F16 fleet as much as possible.

In short, we need any capable air craft we can get. And we need them immediately.

How do you know f4's exceeding its lifespan?
Erdoğan Karakuş said f4 frames are one of the strongest that it still has many years to Come.
It age does not mean it is not useful anymore. They are very good bomber planes.
Of course, i do not mean that 4.5 gen interim solution is not necessary. Turkish air force should always be contemporary by any means.

 

[Nutuk]

Well I truly hope our MOD does not make the stupidity of the century to buy those EF2000, dealing with Europe will be ten times worse than US.

Billions for tincans we won't be able to use

All we do will be handing over Europe a big stick to hit us (with sanctions):
- you are drilling in Cyprus waters: sanction
- you flew over Greek airspace: sanction
- you act against EU in Libya: sanction

and that with our billions spend

Insallah I am wrong, but one doesn't need to be a clairvoyant to predict the obvious

 

[Isbara]

How do you know f4's exceeding its lifespan?
Erdoğan Karakuş said f4 frames are one of the strongest that it still has many years to Come.
It age does not mean it is not useful anymore. They are very good bomber planes.
Of course, i do not mean that 4.5 gen interim solution is not necessary. Turkish air force should always be contemporary by any means.

How many of our upgraded F4-2020E Terminators are in service ? If you know the answer it answers your question too. One by one they're being taken off from service. I do not want to missinform u about this however, If I'm not mistaken we modernised 54 of our F4-E's to 2020 lvl. But unfortunately only 111th Squadron is operating them now. Numbers can not even fill a full squadron. Sorry but the info that General Erdoğan Karakus shared is quite outdated.
U can get further information about the issue in the video below.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Who includes them?

US? Yeah they can, since their own companies produce them.

Name me one country who goes for 5th generation and includes also new purchases of 4th generation. Israel is the only one going for F15EX and that is because of the range, do we get more range with EF above F16?

Anyway this turns into opinions with me putting forth reason why EF is nonsense vs opinions that can not put any sane explanations why we should have them

Bro, I understand your reasons and I agree with some of them but you also know very well that our neighbor is not a state with a respectable understanding of politics that operates with normal dynamics. We are talking about a state that takes all its motivations from Turkish hostility with secret revisionist aims and tries to turn every crisis into an opportunity with perception games and lies. Politicians in this country consider it their duty to play with fire as if their brains have been seized with Turkish hatred and while doing this, they make it a habit to hide behind European states against likely reaction of Turkiye. That's why they try to invest in weapons and especially in the air force, even if their economy collapses. These men go door to door talking badly about Turkiye and are doing their best to keep the broken relations of Turkiye with other states intact. They can even complain/talk bad about Turkiye in other country's parliaments and funding the campaigns against Turkish procurements. All the aims of these men are to expand unilaterally in Aegean and Mediterranean with so called wind they take behind them. Now, going to war with these guys is only as far as declaring that they have increased the territorial waters of Aegean to 12nm with a simple decree of their President and they are talking about that they will definitely do it.

So when will they do this? Of course, they will do it as soon as they feel that they are superior to us. You know they have tried Kardak in the past. Deterrence is a factor that is provided so that war does not break out but when there are people living in such a fantasy world, you need to organize principles of concept of deterrence according to the capacity of people in front of you. Don't you realize that even foreign minister of this country is in a piss race with number of aircrafts? Not going to war with such a state is a really difficult art. That's why Tayfun was revealed. If needed Cenk will also be revealed. That's why Turkiye is going to need these planes not to fight.
Otherwise, if we had sane neighbors in a normal geography, I would agree with what you say but these guys are so brainwashed that they believe they can defeat Turkiye with a few Rafale. You know Their only agenda is solely Turkiye. That's why every week Turkish officials warn like "don't do anything crazy, otherwise we will do this or that". It will be necessary to respond to these guys in a language they understand and Air Force is currently trying to do so I strongly support interim solutions until TFX and Unmanned fighter aircrafts join into inventory.

 

[Pilatino]

Bro, I understand your reasons and I agree with some of them but you also know very well that our neighbor is not a state with a respectable understanding of politics that operates with normal dynamics. We are talking about a state that takes all its motivations from Turkish hostility with secret revisionist aims and tries to turn every crisis into an opportunity with perception games and lies. Politicians in this country consider it their duty to play with fire as if their brains have been seized with Turkish hatred and while doing this, they make it a habit to hide behind European states against likely reaction of Turkiye. That's why they try to invest in weapons and especially in the air force, even if their economy collapses. These men go door to door talking badly about Turkiye and are doing their best to keep the broken relations of Turkiye with other states intact. They can even complain/talk bad about Turkiye in other country's parliaments and funding the campaigns against Turkish procurements. All the aims of these men are to expand unilaterally in Aegean and Mediterranean with so called wind they take behind them. Now, going to war with these guys is only as far as declaring that they have increased the territorial waters of Aegean to 12nm with a simple decree of their President and they are talking about that they will definitely do it.

So when will they do this? Of course, they will do it as soon as they feel that they are superior to us. You know they have tried Kardak in the past. Deterrence is a factor that is provided so that war does not break out but when there are people living in such a fantasy world, you need to organize principles of concept of deterrence according to the capacity of people in front of you. Don't you realize that even foreign minister of this country is in a piss race with number of aircrafts? Not going to war with such a state is a really difficult art. that's why Turkiye is going to need these planes not to fight.
Otherwise, if we had sane neighbors in a normal geography, I would agree with what you say but these guys are so brainwashed that they believe they can defeat Turkiye with Rafale. Their only agenda is solely Turkiye. That's why every week Turkish officials warn "don't do anything crazy, otherwise we will do this or that". It will be necessary to respond to these guys in a language they understand in the future and the Air Force is currently trying to do so I strongly support interim solutions until TFX and Unmanned fighter aircrafts join into inventory.

Isn't it ridiculous? A state with 10 million citizens are planning to have a better army than us. How they can sustain such expense? I mean is this our fault or their success?

 

[boredaf]

Isn't it ridiculous? A state with 10 million citizens are planning to have a better army than us. How they can sustain such expense? I mean is this our fault or their success?

No, because they are fulfilling only strategic importance they have in Europe: Opposing and taunting us. They can bankrupt themselves a dozen times trying to build a military stronger than us and EU will bail them out every single time. Look at how EU and USA is using Ukraine against Russia right now (not that they are wrong in helping them, it was Putin's idiocy to hand EU and US the perfect proxy war against Russia), if there is a war between us, they'll use Greece in just the same way.

That's why while the domestic programs are of utmost importance, we also cannot fall behind while waiting for them.

 

[Nutuk]

Bro, I understand your reasons and I agree with some of them but you also know very well that our neighbor is not a state with a respectable understanding of politics that operates with normal dynamics. We are talking about a state that takes all its motivations from Turkish hostility with secret revisionist aims and tries to turn every crisis into an opportunity with perception games and lies. Politicians in this country consider it their duty to play with fire as if their brains have been seized with Turkish hatred and while doing this, they make it a habit to hide behind European states against likely reaction of Turkiye. That's why they try to invest in weapons and especially in the air force, even if their economy collapses. These men go door to door talking badly about Turkiye and are doing their best to keep the broken relations of Turkiye with other states intact. They can even complain/talk bad about Turkiye in other country's parliaments and funding the campaigns against Turkish procurements. All the aims of these men are to expand unilaterally in Aegean and Mediterranean with so called wind they take behind them. Now, going to war with these guys is only as far as declaring that they have increased the territorial waters of Aegean to 12nm with a simple decree of their President and they are talking about that they will definitely do it.

So when will they do this? Of course, they will do it as soon as they feel that they are superior to us. You know they have tried Kardak in the past. Deterrence is a factor that is provided so that war does not break out but when there are people living in such a fantasy world, you need to organize principles of concept of deterrence according to the capacity of people in front of you. Don't you realize that even foreign minister of this country is in a piss race with number of aircrafts? Not going to war with such a state is a really difficult art. That's why Tayfun was revealed. If needed Cenk will also be revealed. That's why Turkiye is going to need these planes not to fight.
Otherwise, if we had sane neighbors in a normal geography, I would agree with what you say but these guys are so brainwashed that they believe they can defeat Turkiye with a few Rafale. You know Their only agenda is solely Turkiye. That's why every week Turkish officials warn like "don't do anything crazy, otherwise we will do this or that". It will be necessary to respond to these guys in a language they understand and Air Force is currently trying to do so I strongly support interim solutions until TFX and Unmanned fighter aircrafts join into inventory.

Bro, we do not disagree on strengthening Turkiye, on the contrary. Just EF2000 is not the way, it will be a weakening factor because we become so prone to sanctions and deterrence gets nullified. You do not have to describe how treacherous Europe is, I live there!

Europe will only be deterred if Turkiye is not dependent and they cannot achieve their means with sanctions. As treacherous Europe is, it is also scared. A scared Europe always goes for compromise, not when you give them a stick for sanctions!

Strength and deterrence won't be achieved by buying their junk, look at the tank engine issue. They are a hell uva scared with our drone power though, our guided missiles etc. all areas where they do not feel superior anymore. Buy a Rafale, buy Eurofighter and you get into that circel again. All of Europe, almost without exception (Hungary is the only exception) are openly and secretly having sanctions, weapons blockades on us. Are we this blind?