TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Cabatli_TR]

Bro, we do not disagree on strengthening Turkiye, on the contrary. Just EF2000 is not the way, it will be a weakening factor because we become so prone to sanctions and deterrence gets nullified. You do not have to describe how treacherous Europe is, I live there!

Europe will only be deterred if Turkiye is not dependent and they cannot achieve their means with sanctions. As treacherous Europe is, it is also scared. A scared Europe always goes for compromise, not when you give them a stick for sanctions!

Strength and deterrence won't be achieved by buying their junk, look at the tank engine issue. They are a hell uva scared with our drone power though, our guided missiles etc. all areas where they do not feel superior anymore. Buy a Rafale, buy Eurofighter and you get into that circel again. All of Europe, almost without exception (Hungary is the only exception) are openly and secretly having sanctions, weapons blockades on us. Are we this blind?

Bro, Embargo will always be hump on our backs. As is the case with EFs, which are an option for this interim solution, the engines of TFX which will form backbone of our air force in 2030s, can be considered within this possibility or we are likely to experience same fate with Hürjet' F404s. When we are declared evil by the west like they did to Russia, forget TFX, even Snapdragon chips to be used in TOGG may be sanctioned or they can completely close chip production in Taiwan to Turkiye like they do to China but we are not giving up on huge projects or investments like TFX just because there is this possibility but forming out plans to produce a few squadron of TFX with US engines until domestic solution are developed. I mean Turkiye is working hard to eliminate negative effects of foreign components to our deterrance to be free but we need time to eliminate them, not only for engines but also chips and many other things as well.

But Now we have to provide deterrence with a European and/or US platforms that can be sanctioned in the same way that they may do with many other domestic programs. These acquisition negotiations are done because we are forced such solutions in AF's threat perception. If all goes well for TFX and if we didn't have to wait 13-15 years for a few squadron of TFX, then no one would have considered such a solution anyway but you should understand that there are many factors I mentioned playing serious role to consider this option despite risks.

 

[Nutuk]

Bro, Embargo will always be hump on our backs. As is the case with EFs, which are an option for this interim solution, the engines of TFX which will form backbone of our air force in 2030s, can be considered within this possibility or we are likely to experience same fate with Hürjet' F414s. When we are declared evil by the west like they did to Russia, forget TFX, even Snapdragon chips to be used in TOGG may be sanctioned or they can completely close chip production in Taiwan to Turkiye like they do to China but we are not giving up on huge projects or investments like TFX just because there is this possibility but forming out plans to produce a few squadron of TFX with US engines until domestic solution are developed. I mean Turkiye is working hard to eliminate negative effects of foreign components to our deterrance to be free but we need time to eliminate them, not only for engines but also chips and many other things as well.

But Now we have to provide deterrence with a European and/or US platforms that can be sanctioned in the same way that they may do with many other domestic programs. These acquisition negotiations are done because we are forced such solutions in AF's threat perception. If all goes well for TFX and if we didn't have to wait 13-15 years for a few squadron of TFX, then no one would have considered such a solution anyway but you should understand that there are many factors I mentioned playing serious role to consider this option despite risks.

Sure, we always have the risk of embargo on our back. Difference between US and Europe is that Europe only can rely on embargo(es) and we are just handing them over the stick (ironically paid with our own billions)

We have to bank on drones so much that embargoes won't have effect anymore, buying extra F16's, Eurofighters won't make a difference.

Upgrading the existing F16's is the way to go, and enlarge our drone fleet. We have to bank on technologies that neither Europe nor US has a sanctioning power on. Let's not throw away billions in something that will turn idle at the first sanctions (and be clear if we give them the stick they will use it)

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Nutuk is right , Eurofighter have componets from mutiple countries and woth first opportunity EU will put sanction (syria operation etc )
The detterance is aslo with quantity of wespons not only quality .
While Turkiye build itself 4 Istanbul frigates cos have no money why have money to buy 10+ billions weapons from others that can be stock out of service ?!
With that money you can order 20 Istanbul Frigates .
Aslo our Airforce is weak with only 230 aircraft for our size and opponentes around but we are progressing in Drone tech , we can build more .
Aslo SAMs are ready no airforce can easy enter airspace and get out healthy , look Russia how many S400 missiles/SAMs have more than all other world .
Only 10 years is the gap to form superiority airforce with our Tech .
Look Iran , Has mediocre airforce but no balls to attack Iran even why Iran threaten Israel USA,try to build nukes etc
Why? Because have replaced airforce woth other weapons like guided Balkistic missiles thats where comes in play quantity more than quality because iran have 100 000+ ballistic missiles , Thats what can aslo do Build more Bora and other long range missiles with all of that money .

 

[dBSPL]

It is interesting that according to rumors we are buying T3A, not T4.
IMHO it is a good decision. We should buy 40-48 EF-2000 T3A and second-hand T1s from the UK and upgrade T1s. We should buy ECRS radar rather than Captor-E AESA. We should be able to integrate our own weapons into Turkish Typhoons.
EF-2000 with AESA radar is superior to any 4th/4.5th gen aircraft for air-to-air missions including Rafale, F-16, and F-15.

Could the fact that the negotiations are based on the FGR4 indicate that we want to buy some of these aircraft ready-made or from a series already in production for another country at Lancashire facility?

We urgently need a platform to replace the F4E Terminators. In other words, rather than a jet in the development phase, it may be desirable to have a completely seamless platform, when we are already dealing with a lot of integration and documentation work. Probably the main consideration here is that every single ordnance in the F4E catalog (except Popeyes) can be used in EFs. By the way, I know that the Qatar Eurofighters will be coming to Konya are also in this configuration.

If the purchase of 48 EFs can be achieved within a two-year timeframe, this will make the purchase of new F-16s unnecessary. Regarding the existing F-16 fleet, we may not be able to increase the number of aircrafts w conformal tank, but we can create our own modernization plan at the B-70 level in terms of avionics. This could have some political implications, which could undermine Greek F-35 initiatives, albeit to a limited extent, and on the other hand, could also increase the UK's enthusiasm for cooperation on the Hurjet and MMU projects.

 

[Saithan]

If we're going to replace F4 with EF2k Then buy factory new.

I'd rather pay UK the money to make Hurjet operational and fly in the sky than buy old used EF. Since everyone is so set on MMU then it shouldn't be a problem to have UK finish what our engineers doesn't seem capable of doing. Hurjet should have been flying in the skies now, and we should be mass producing them (80-100).

The engine of Hurjet isn't ours anyway so shouldn't be an issue to have other make it fly.

 

[Yasar_TR]

UK is after the big cake; TFX engine deal and a large order for Typhoons.

F119 engine was worth 9.5 million dollars in 2006. With today’s dollar that makes 14.5million dollars.

Ancile

www.deagel.com

Rolls Royce, if given the engine project, will probably produce in Turkey and sell this engine with all it’s rights staying in Turkey, for in excess of 15 million dollars each.
Turkey needs to produce in excess of 250+ TFX planes until 2040s and beyond for her own airforce. There should be as much for export as well. That makes nearly 1100 engines, worth upwards of 17 billion dollars. Add to this the engines for the 48 Typhoons and new engines for 20+ Tranche1. The engine deal is worth close to 20 billion dollars.
48 Typhoons will be around 10billion dollars on their own.
So the big cake is nearly 30billion dollars. This is not taking in to account the M60 tank engines, and a prospective supply of EJ200s for the Hurjet for the light attack version too
4 x Type 23 frigates at 25 million each are peanuts, and can even be offered as a sweetener; If already hasn’t been done so!
To have such a defence relation for such a protracted length of time between two countries will have more economical advantages for both countries along the lines of cross insemination. Especially for the UK side.
The deal for the TFX engine lies in the heart of this entire defence collaboration.

 

[Nutuk]

?? F119 is from Pratt & Whitney not from UK!

 

[YeşilVatan]

UK is after the big cake; TFX engine deal and a large order for Typhoons.
F119 engine was worth 9.5 million dollars in 2006. With today’s dollar that makes 14.5million dollars.

Ancile

www.deagel.com

Rolls Royce, if given the engine project, will probably produce in Turkey and sell this engine with all it’s rights staying in Turkey, for in excess of 15 million dollars each.
Turkey needs to produce in excess of 250+ TFX planes until 2040s and beyond for her own airforce. There should be as much for export as well. That makes nearly 1100 engines, worth upwards of 17 billion dollars. Add to this the engines for the 48 Typhoons and new engines for 20+ Tranche1. The engine deal is worth close to 20 billion dollars.
48 Typhoons will be around 10billion dollars on their own.
So the big cake is nearly 30billion dollars. This is not taking in to account the M60 tank engines, and a prospective supply of EJ200s for the Hurjet for the light attack version too
4 x Type 23 frigates at 25 million each are peanuts, and can even be offered as a sweetener; If already hasn’t been done so!
To have such a defence relation for such a protracted length of time between two countries will have more economical advantages for both countries along the lines of cross insemination. Especially for the UK side.
The deal for the TFX engine lies in the heart of this entire defence collaboration.

What happens if they agree to a more simpler tech transfer? I don't know if British state apparatus has that much foresight, but helping Turkey with this would actually be the best thing they can do for their Tempest project. They would essentially guarantee TAI's transformation into an aeronautics giant, which would be a trustworthy (and very cheap) partner in Tempest.

This would actually be in line with recent British policy of allying and supporting 'rising stars' such as Poland.

 

[Fairon]

?? F119 is from Pratt & Whitney not from UK!

It is an example for the price. Rolls Royce deal are for the new engines and they can expect a price similar to F119.

 

[Yasar_TR]

?? F119 is from Pratt & Whitney not from UK!

Correct. But if you read the post in its entirety you will understand that the price is the issue here. Not WHO produces the engine.
F119 is a 26000lbf/35000lbf (dry/afterburner) stealthy engine. RR needs to produce a similar engine for us.

 

[boredaf]

RR needs to produce a similar engine for us.

Is there a chance that they already have a design and looking for partner to reduce the cost and production, hence the offer to us?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Is there a chance that they already have a design and looking for partner to reduce the cost and production, hence the offer to us?

Quite likely!
They would not have forwarded their offer if they had not have a design in hand already , as we would not have entertained their offer.
From what is discussed it looks like they are developing an engine for Tempest project using technologies present in the Pearl engines, like the Blisks in both fan stage and compressor stage.
Pearl engine is smaller in size than what is needed for TFX. But can already develop up to 20000lbf dry thrust, enabling the commercial plane it powers to fly transonic (going in to supersonic domain intermittently). Using this tech in their new engines they can produce a version of it for the TFX that would suffice for a 5th generation plane’s needs.

 

[Afif]

From what is discussed it looks like they are developing an engine for Tempest project using technologies present in the Pearl engines, like the Blisks in both fan stage and compressor stage.

can you share any source on that please? Because AFAIK is Tempsets engine is completely next generation development, specially the core engine.

Only time i heard about anything pearl derived, is from TEI CEO in conversation about RR possible option for TFX.

 

[boredaf]

Quite likely!
They would not have forwarded their offer if they had not have a design in hand already , as we would not have entertained their offer.

If this is the case this deal might be really beneficial for us until our own engines catch up with our needs. Brexit might really be working in our favor now lol

 

[Lool]

UK is after the big cake; TFX engine deal and a large order for Typhoons.

F119 engine was worth 9.5 million dollars in 2006. With today’s dollar that makes 14.5million dollars.

Ancile

www.deagel.com

Rolls Royce, if given the engine project, will probably produce in Turkey and sell this engine with all it’s rights staying in Turkey, for in excess of 15 million dollars each.
Turkey needs to produce in excess of 250+ TFX planes until 2040s and beyond for her own airforce. There should be as much for export as well. That makes nearly 1100 engines, worth upwards of 17 billion dollars. Add to this the engines for the 48 Typhoons and new engines for 20+ Tranche1. The engine deal is worth close to 20 billion dollars.
48 Typhoons will be around 10billion dollars on their own.
So the big cake is nearly 30billion dollars. This is not taking in to account the M60 tank engines, and a prospective supply of EJ200s for the Hurjet for the light attack version too
4 x Type 23 frigates at 25 million each are peanuts, and can even be offered as a sweetener; If already hasn’t been done so!
To have such a defence relation for such a protracted length of time between two countries will have more economical advantages for both countries along the lines of cross insemination. Especially for the UK side.
The deal for the TFX engine lies in the heart of this entire defence collaboration.

This is just my 2 cents on the issue but I think that it is quite wrong to give RR the engine deal at this stage

TEI-TF 6000's prototype is being built at the moment and TEI-TF10000 will have its prototype built by the end of the year. Moreover, TEI-TF35000 will have its prototype built by the end of 2024, as far as I remember! Thus, in just 3 years time, Turkey may have a decent engine family with national means and this will save Turkey's ass in the future rather than Rolls Royce that may give Turkey the middle finger at any moment

 

[Yasar_TR]

can you share any source on that please? Because AFAIK is Tempsets engine is completely next generation development, specially the core engine.

Only time i heard about anything pearl derived, is from TEI CEO in conversation about RR possible option for TFX.

Have a look at TFX thread my post #5282?

 

[Saithan]

It is very wrong yo assume any such deal may be included. How often haven’t we believed things were included just to end up with a long nose afterwards.

don’t forget what we gain on battlefield we lose on the table.

 

[Turan]

UK is after the big cake; TFX engine deal and a large order for Typhoons.

F119 engine was worth 9.5 million dollars in 2006. With today’s dollar that makes 14.5million dollars.

Ancile

www.deagel.com

Rolls Royce, if given the engine project, will probably produce in Turkey and sell this engine with all it’s rights staying in Turkey, for in excess of 15 million dollars each.
Turkey needs to produce in excess of 250+ TFX planes until 2040s and beyond for her own airforce. There should be as much for export as well. That makes nearly 1100 engines, worth upwards of 17 billion dollars. Add to this the engines for the 48 Typhoons and new engines for 20+ Tranche1. The engine deal is worth close to 20 billion dollars.
48 Typhoons will be around 10billion dollars on their own.
So the big cake is nearly 30billion dollars. This is not taking in to account the M60 tank engines, and a prospective supply of EJ200s for the Hurjet for the light attack version too
4 x Type 23 frigates at 25 million each are peanuts, and can even be offered as a sweetener; If already hasn’t been done so!
To have such a defence relation for such a protracted length of time between two countries will have more economical advantages for both countries along the lines of cross insemination. Especially for the UK side.
The deal for the TFX engine lies in the heart of this entire defence collaboration.

The important thing is whether intellectual property to stay in Turkey or in RR. If the Turkish side had agreed to keep the intellectual property in RR, this issue would have been resolved. İ thing even if huge EF typhoon purchase from UK may not solve this issue.
But if the deal is done as you say, then it will be a very profitable deal for Turkey.

 

[TheInsider]

Isn't it ridiculous? A state with 10 million citizens are planning to have a better army than us. How they can sustain such expense? I mean is this our fault or their success?

It can be done with outside help. If the US really wants to push it to another level it can donate 3 billion to Greece annually to be spent on American weapons.

 

[TheInsider]

This is just my 2 cents on the issue but I think that it is quite wrong to give RR the engine deal at this stage

TEI-TF 6000's prototype is being built at the moment and TEI-TF10000 will have its prototype built by the end of the year. Moreover, TEI-TF35000 will have its prototype built by the end of 2024, as far as I remember! Thus, in just 3 years time, Turkey may have a decent engine family with national means and this will save Turkey's ass in the future rather than Rolls Royce that may give Turkey the middle finger at any moment

LooooooL there is no way a TF-35000 prototype to appear in 2024. Are you guys out of your mind? The end of 2026 is presented as a best-case scenario for the first ignition. This puts availability in 2030 at best.