TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Nutuk]

It doesn't make sense when you first look at it at face value, but the Greek state is a suicidal one. They're highly fanatical and receive near constant stream of means to do evil stuff towards the Turks. Highly zealous bunch of lads can make a lotta difference in the field. If you have doubts, ask the Mujahideen! Or ISIS!

Even if we consider all that true (a bit harsh) than again, Greece has no land forces nor a reliable navy to prevent big losses against Turkiye.

They just invest in the air force to have a bit deterrence against us (not the other way around)

 

[Nutuk]

There are a few aspects to consider with eurofighter deal.

1. MMU has still a good while to start making deliveries. If first deliveries are made about 2030 it will still take a couple years to deliver initial batch. Then I imagine there would be some time before the next block starts serial production and ends deliveries. I think at this point we are talking 2035-2040 for 100+ TFX, if we take the 24 planes a year calculation from Temel Kotil. Even if we modernise all F16s that we have, without new ones delivered, and F4s retired, some of our F16s will be stretched thin and age even faster. If our fighter fleet drops below 200s that wouldn’t be nice. So one way or another, even if its costly, injection of new platforms that excel in air to air capabilities is very important. Since drones help with A2G capabilities significantly, we should’t worry much about that. But don’t forget eurofighters and f16s will still have to last into 2040s because we won’t have 300 TFX to replace entire fleet before then with even the most optimistic estimates.

2. We still want to be part of international projects and have alternatives, as well as keep good relations with other states and give them incentive to keep their relations positive with us. This is also important for keeping up with technology and methods used by other countries.

3. However, we still don’t know if other members of eurofighter consortium will not present us with embargoes about munitions and spare parts if they authorise the initial sale at all.

4. Eurofighters and F16 use different aerial refueling methods. Will we also have to buy new refueling planes? Will we even be sold any?

5. As far as money is concerned, I think we are willing to buy any acceptable plane even if it is very costly, because it is very critical for us, even if sacrifices must be made. So much is wasted on things we don’t need, I’m sure we can come up with the money for such a vital issue.

1) Yes, but we do not have only MMU, we have also Hurjet, Kizilelma, TISU. Getting Eurofighter is not the solution, it's a burden (not only technically but also politically as we know our European friends and their love for sanctions. Don't give them the means!)

Suppose we buy today, than it will still take at least 2 years (in most positive case) to get them in inventory, and a considerable time (say also 2 years) to have our pilots, infrastructure etc. completely adapted to have them in effective use (we talk about 2027 at earliest).

Modernizing F16's is the only one that makes sense, no extra burden to the infrastructure and logistics or pilot trainings.

Air to ground roles will completely go to drones in the near future (Kizilelma and TISU), this is controversially the area we are the most safe with our own bombs and missiles developed, in special cases the F16's will be enough.

2) projects yes! But not straight purchase of Eurofighter, or 30 year old ships.

3) Refer to point 1

4) Refer to point 1

5) Replacing the US whims for European whims, I don't know what to say. It's like crying out lout: come slap us!

 

[TheInsider]

It is interesting that according to rumors we are buying T3A, not T4.
IMHO it is a good decision. We should buy 40-48 EF-2000 T3A and second-hand T1s from the UK and upgrade T1s. We should buy ECRS radar rather than Captor-E AESA. We should be able to integrate our own weapons into Turkish Typhoons.
EF-2000 with AESA radar is superior to any 4th/4.5th gen aircraft for air-to-air missions including Rafale, F-16, and F-15.

 

[Zafer]

Many of our woes will disappear once our TF6000 engine takes flight on one of our UCAVs. Even the Akınıcı is a relief but is no match to a jet UCAV. I wouldn't think our MoD would be quick to look for alternatives before we fly our UCAVs. I hope it takes a long time to do the evaluations and we can see the picture clearer before be make a choice.

 

[Nutuk]

It is interesting that according to rumors we are buying T3A, not T4.
IMHO it is a good decision. We should buy 40-48 EF-2000 T3A and second-hand T1s from the UK and upgrade T1s. We should buy ECRS radar rather than Captor-E AESA. We should be able to integrate our own weapons into Turkish Typhoons.
EF-2000 with AESA radar is superior to any 4th/4.5th gen aircraft for air-to-air missions including Rafale, F-16, and F-15.

And put a bullet into the MMU project

We cannot even upgrade the F16's and dreams are there to upgrade EF2000. Allah may save us

 

[Isbara]

And put a bullet into the MMU project

We cannot even upgrade the F16's and dreams are there to upgrade EF2000. Allah may save us

Okay I see your opinion and I admire that.
But what if an unexpected conflict occurs between Tr and Gr ?
What we're gonna do then ? Ask Greece to wait for our national fighers to come ? Our airforce officers are the ones to evaluate the threat and seek for solutuions.

I say let's trust and our air force authorities. And their desicions. They might have seen a possible threat incoming years and they're preparing some measures for it.

No one's willing to jeopardise TFX project. Especially air force.

 

[boredaf]

And put a bullet into the MMU project

You're exaggerating way too much, to the point of sounding hysterical. We are not going to stop or slow down TF-X just because we buy 4.5 gen jets, that is absolutely ridiculous. But if something did happen to cause it to slow down, we'd be caught with our pants down and asses hanging in the air if we did nothing to increase the number of our aircraft.

Hürjet hasn't even flown yet, KE only made 2 flights and we haven't even seen what TİUS actually looks like yet you are talking about them as if they are ready and combat proven. We need new jets, be it Eurofighter or F-16 while we wait for these programs to mature and start serial production and see how good they actually are.

And it's not like we are the only country on the planet that is still buying 4.5 gen jets, most of them are including the ones that have 5th gen.

 

[Nutuk]

Okay I see your opinion and I admire that.
But what if an unexpected conflict occurs between Tr and Gr ?
What we're gonna do then ? Ask Greece to wait for our national fighers to come ? Our airforce officersare ones to evaluate the threat and seek for solutuions.

I say let's trust our air force authorities. And their desicions. They might see a possible threat incoming years and they're preparing some measures for it.

No one's willing to jeopardise TFX project. Especially air force.

First of all Greece we do not need extra aircraft for that, we can completely disassemble Greece with drones (Kizilelma, TISU)

Secondly what is the EU gonna do, with every straining, crisis (I am not even talking about a war yet) we get EU sanctions and you won't be able to use EF2000 due to lack of spare.

Sorry but there is no any logic in buying these planes (my personal opinion) unless someone can clearly point out there will be no case of EU sanctions.

 

[Agha Sher]

One thing that I agree with Nutuk on is Turkiye exposing herself to even more German sanctions. They Altay powerpack saga should be enough to discourage Turkiye from averything with a german say.

 

[Nutuk]

You're exaggerating way too much, to the point of sounding hysterical. We are not going to stop or slow down TF-X just because we buy 4.5 gen jets, that is absolutely ridiculous. But if something did happen to cause it to slow down, we'd be caught with our pants down and asses hanging in the air if we did nothing to increase the number of our aircraft.

Hürjet hasn't even flown yet, KE only made 2 flights and we haven't even seen what TİUS actually looks like yet you are talking about them as if they are ready and combat proven. We need new jets, be it Eurofighter or F-16 while we wait for these programs to mature and start serial production and see how good they actually are.

And it's not like we are the only country on the planet that is still buying 4.5 gen jets, most of them are including the ones that have 5th gen.

Who includes them?

US? Yeah they can, since their own companies produce them.

Name me one country who goes for 5th generation and includes also new purchases of 4th generation. Israel is the only one going for F15EX and that is because of the range, do we get more range with EF above F16?

Anyway this turns into opinions with me putting forth reason why EF is nonsense vs opinions that can not put any sane explanations why we should have them

 

[No Name]

There are a few aspects to consider with eurofighter deal.

1. MMU has still a good while to start making deliveries. If first deliveries are made about 2030 it will still take a couple years to deliver initial batch. Then I imagine there would be some time before the next block starts serial production and ends deliveries. I think at this point we are talking 2035-2040 for 100+ TFX, if we take the 24 planes a year calculation from Temel Kotil. Even if we modernise all F16s that we have, without new ones delivered, and F4s retired, some of our F16s will be stretched thin and age even faster. If our fighter fleet drops below 200s that wouldn’t be nice. So one way or another, even if its costly, injection of new platforms that excel in air to air capabilities is very important. Since drones help with A2G capabilities significantly, we should’t worry much about that. But don’t forget eurofighters and f16s will still have to last into 2040s because we won’t have 300 TFX to replace entire fleet before then with even the most optimistic estimates.

2. We still want to be part of international projects and have alternatives, as well as keep good relations with other states and give them incentive to keep their relations positive with us. This is also important for keeping up with technology and methods used by other countries.

3. However, we still don’t know if other members of eurofighter consortium will not present us with embargoes about munitions and spare parts if they authorise the initial sale at all.

4. Eurofighters and F16 use different aerial refueling methods. Will we also have to buy new refueling planes? Will we even be sold any?

5. As far as money is concerned, I think we are willing to buy any acceptable plane even if it is very costly, because it is very critical for us, even if sacrifices must be made. So much is wasted on things we don’t need, I’m sure we can come up with the money for such a vital issue.

Temel Kotil said that they will produce two TF-X jets per month starting in 2029/2030 so I do not understand why you think it will take a couple of years to deliver the initial batch?

 

[No Name]

Do you guys think that Turkey can use the EF deal to get its foot in the door for the Global combat air programme?

 

[uçuyorum]

Temel Kotil said that they will produce two TF-X jets per month starting in 2029/2030 so I do not understand why you think it will take a couple of years to deliver the initial batch?

How many F110s will be delivered? Also probably LRIP for first block rather than full serial production.

 

[Oublious]

I can not find reliable sources about the deal, so lets wait and see .

 

[Oublious]

according to Ragip Soylu we are thinking about it...

fak it and buy the damn fighter...

lets buy 1 time Ason Martin and not Ford from Americans....

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-uk-massive-arms-deal-planes-ships-tank-engines

 

[Brokengineer]

I do not know any possible engine to fit tfx from rr. There is currently none to fill the needs of tfx programme which is 35k lbf class.
However, the deal could be utilized for the hürjet, Kızılelma or Anka 3 programme.
As for all the negotiations going with Brits, we now that thyphoons are essential part of it.

 

[Heartbang]

lets buy 1 time Ason Martin and not Ford from Americans...

Ford owned Aston Martin for 20 years...

 

[Huelague]

You simply don't do bazaar tactics from government to government, this is not a bazaar!

Who is politicizing it, you talk about it!

Pure technically, it is utmost stupid to go for 30 year old ships and we also do not need eurofighters with all the European snub that will come along. There will be some who will say but we are buying from the British, yeah as if that is different. How many times did Britain not give us the ships we paid for, a little bit history may open some eyes.

This interim talk is also very lose, if we want deterrence, the question is against whom? Against Russia? Russia has broken her teeth on Ukraine. Against Greece? Don't make me laugh!

Iran, Russia, Greecd, Egypt, Israel...maybe none of them are a match for us. But together they can create big problems. Even they are not acting together.

 

[Isbara]

First of all Greece we do not need extra aircraft for that, we can completely disassemble Greece with drones (Kizilelma, TISU)

Secondly what is the EU gonna do, with every straining, crisis (I am not even talking about a war yet) we get EU sanctions and you won't be able to use EF2000 due to lack of spare.

Sorry but there is no any logic in buying these planes (my personal opinion) unless someone can clearly point out there will be no case of EU sanctions.

Sorry but I do disagree with your statement above.
TISU, Kizilelma are just early prototypes. We do not have them in our inventory with large numbers. Also, their role and capabilites are still unclear. Even though they're capable platforms, we still need an absolute air superiority over the Aegan to operate those aircrafts properly. Most optimistic scenario those planes will be ready and available in our inventory with limited numbers in 2027 or 2028. And a squadron of F16 B70's if US congress approves the sale. Meanwhile Greece will have 24 Rafales (May be more), 80 F16 B70's and they are going to receive 2 or 6 F35's.

About the EU issue even though i agree with you, i also see a good opportunity on our good relations with UK. I don't think that EU wants to ruin UK's sales. Because UK could do the same too. On the other hand, I do not assume other EF partners have problems about this sale except Germany. Italy and Spain will be okay with this.

And do not think about Greece only. Threats on our location are on the Rise. We have no idea when we find ourselves in an escalation in Syria again. Against YPG or Iranian militias. Iran might raise the bet by using their new Su-35's etc. It is heating up so fast around our country. To be ready for fight is not enough. We should be deterring against our foes also.

One more thing, we do not know how long we can operate our F4-2020 Terminator's more, which were already exceeded their lifespan. Work load on our F16 fleet is insane. We should also decrease their flight times too. We need to protect our F16 fleet as much as possible.

In short, we need any capable air craft we can get. And we need them immediately.

 

[Brokengineer]

Sorry but I do disagree with your statement above.
TISU, Kizilelma are just early prototypes. We do not have them in our inventory with large numbers. Also, their role and capabilites are still unclear. Even though they're capable platforms, we still need an absolute air superiority on the Aegan to operate those aircrafts properly. Most optimistic scenario those planes will be ready and available in our inventory with limited numbers in 2027 or 2028. And a squadron of F16 B70's if US congress approves the sale. Meanwhile Greece will have 24 Rafales (May be more), 80 F16 B70's and they are going to receive 2 or 6 F35's.

About the EU issue even though i agree with you, i also see a good opportunity on our good relations with UK. I don't think that EU wants to ruin UK's sales. Because UK could do the same too. On the other hand, I do not assume other EF partners have problems about this sale except Germany. Italy and Spain will be okay with this.

And do not think about Greece only. Threats on our location are on the Rise. We have no idea when we find ourselves in an escalation in Syria again. Against YPG or Iranian militias. Iran might raise the bet by using their new Su-35's etc. It is heating up so fast around our country. To be ready for fight is not enough. We should be deterring against our foes also.

One more thing, we do not know how long we can operate our F4-2020 Terminator's more, which were already exceeded their lifespan. Work load on our F16 fleet is insane. We should also decrease their flight times too. We need to protect our F16 fleet as much as possible.

In short, we need any capable air craft we can get. And we need them immediately.

How do you know f4's exceeding its lifespan?
Erdoğan Karakuş said f4 frames are one of the strongest that it still has many years to Come.
It age does not mean it is not useful anymore. They are very good bomber planes.
Of course, i do not mean that 4.5 gen interim solution is not necessary. Turkish air force should always be contemporary by any means.