TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Ripley]

Its time to litigate this matter at the courts. With the Americans signaling they're willing to sell F-35's to India (a nation who uses the S400 complex) there is a solid chance to acquire tangible gains from this.
Who needs F-16's when you can go back to the original consortium!

“With the Americans signaling they're willing to sell F-35's to India (a nation who uses the S400 complex)”
If this turns out to be true and the sale goes through, then Turkey really might have a case.

But we also must always keep this in mind that the CAATSA was activated on the grounds of a NATO F35 operator using a Russian equipment at the same time and it would have brought a huge risk for the US and the NATO. India, on the other hand, is not a NATO a member.

 

[Sanchez]

CAATSA is not about that, at all. It's purely financial in its word, while being highly political. CAATSA sanctions against Turkey were activated for the purchase and then delivery of the S-400.

Turkey being booted from the F-35 program is not related to the CAATSA itself, no matter how much Americans like to quote it.

 

[Ripley]

CAATSA is not about that, at all. It's purely financial in its word, while being highly political. CAATSA sanctions against Turkey were activated for the purchase and then delivery of the S-400.

Turkey being booted from the F-35 program is not related to the CAATSA itself, no matter how much Americans like to quote

“CAATSA sanctions against Turkey were activated for the purchase and then delivery of the S-400.“ and I had said “on the grounds of a NATO F35 operator using a Russian equipment at the same time and it would have brought a huge risk for the US and the NATO.”

What am I missing here?

And yes except most of the Americans, pretty much everyone else knows that CAATSA is a political tool.
How else would you define a specific act solely targeting three particular countries anything other than political?

 

[Sanchez]

There isn't anything "on the grounds", is my point. S-400s being accepted is the reason for CAATSA sanctions. Existence of S-400 in Turkey is the chief reason for the Turkey being booted from the program. But this doesn't make the CAATSA sanctions and the boot from JSF linked. They aren't linked. This is a small distinction, but very important.

 

[Ripley]

There isn't anything "on the grounds", is my point. S-400s being accepted is the reason for CAATSA sanctions. Existence of S-400 in Turkey is the chief reason for the Turkey being booted from the program. But this doesn't make the CAATSA sanctions and the boot from JSF linked. They aren't linked. This is a small distinction, but very important.

And yet the US officially linked those two separate things together.

CAATSA implemented due to consistent neglecting the US official warning on many political levels (or threats, according to some) by Turkey against her acquisition of S400.
Afterwards, the latter was given her marching orders on the ground that the said acquisition could compromise F35 program and future fleets of the plane within NATO.

If you are saying that it was nothing but political mambo jambo by the US to find excuses to kick Turkey out, well that’s something else and I would hardly disagree with that.

 

[Sanchez]

If you are saying that it was nothing but political mambo jambo by the US to find excuses to kick Turkey out, well that’s something else and I would hardly disagree with that.

Basically, yes. They leaned on the link to sell it, but from a legal standpoint, no link exists between CAATSA and the boot from JSF.

 

[Cenkcnk]

Is there any plans on buying new cargo planes? If we have 17 c-130's and 10 a400m's, this is far from being enough. We should have at least one c-5 or an-124 for extreme lifting ops. and much more hercules and a-400m's

 

[Ripley]

Is there any plans on buying new cargo planes? If we have 17 c-130's and 10 a400m's, this is far from being enough. We should have at least one c-5 or an-124 for extreme lifting ops. and much more hercules and a-400m's

You are right. Our cargo fleet far from enough for quite a while now even on a daily mission capacity, let alone in a catastrophic situation.

In fact, Before the earthquakes, the major multiple arms deal packages between Turkey and Britain were on the table and the acquisition of C-130J (around twenty, iirc) was also included.

Medium to heavy cargo planes and helicopters are one of those things that you can’t have enough. They’re practically the workhorses of any large military force.

 

[Afif]

Cagri Erhan, a member of the Presidential Security and Foreign Policy Committee, touched upon Turkey's supply of F-16 fighter jets from the United States.

Answering the questions of the Russian media, Erhan said, “Turkey should immediately change its decision on the F-16. For example, there was an option on the table regarding the F-35. Turkey had expectations from this program. "There are now other options, such as Chinese aircraft, Russian aircraft and Eurofighter fighter aircraft," he said.


Çağrı Erhan said, “I believe that after the earthquakes, Turkey will give up its demand for F-16s because it costs 20 billion dollars. The request for the F-16 was a mistake because these warplanes are “outdated and uncompetitive,” and Congress still refuses to provide them “on some pretext.” said.

This statement given to the Russian press by Çağrı Erhan, who served as a "Security and Foreign Policy Board Member" in the Presidency, was met with astonishment in the Turkish public, which closely follows the developments in the defense industry. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of National Defense have been in contact with the United States for the purchase of F-16 Block 70 fighter jets for a long time.

Erhan: Türkiye'nin F-16 alımından vazgeçeceğine inanıyorum

Cumhurbaşkanlığı Güvenlik ve Dış Politika Kurulu üyesi Çağrı Erhan, Türkiye'nin ABD'den gerçekleştireceği F-16 savaş uçağı tedarikine değindi.

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[Afif]

I am wondering if Eurofighter would cost any less.

 

[UkroTurk]

I am wondering if Eurofighter would cost any less.

The request consists of 40 new fighters and 80 modernization kits.

Who said the package would cost 20 billion?? İ suspect.

 

[Baryshx]

I am wondering if Eurofighter would cost any less.

Eurofighter is more expensive than the F35.

 

[UkroTurk]

Morocco to upgrade its existing twenty-three F‑16 aircraft to the F‑16V configuration and related equipment for an estimated cost of $985.2 million.

Morocco – F-16 Block 52+ Upgrade to F-16V Configuration | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

I can't really believe 80 upgrade kits plus 40 fighters will cost 20billion.

How much does new f-16V cost?

 

[Sanchez]

The request consists of 40 new fighters and 80 modernization kits.

Who said the package would cost 20 billion?? İ suspect.

20bil figure came from WSJ article from january. It's not something new.

WSJ News Exclusive | Biden Administration to Ask Congress to Approve F-16 Sale to Turkey

The $20 billion sale is contingent on Ankara’s approval of NATO expansion, administration officials said, and comes alongside a sale of F-35s to Greece.

www.wsj.com

That number It also includes 900 AA missiles and 800 AGMs.

 

[UkroTurk]

20bil figure came from WSJ article from january. It's not something new.

WSJ News Exclusive | Biden Administration to Ask Congress to Approve F-16 Sale to Turkey

The $20 billion sale is contingent on Ankara’s approval of NATO expansion, administration officials said, and comes alongside a sale of F-35s to Greece.

www.wsj.com

That number It also includes 900 AA missiles and 800 AGMs.

So it is not just the price of Fighters.
With those equipments EF will cost more.

F-16.net - The ultimate F-16, F-35 and F-22 reference

Lockheed Martin Corp., doing business as Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, Fort Worth, Texas, has been awarded a $799,955,939 firm-fixed-price incentive contract for F-16 aircraft production.

www.f-16.net

Slovakia's 14 f-16 contract with LM costs 900million but with extras 2.7 million .

 

[Sanchez]

With those equipments EF will cost more.

That would be expected. Typhoon is a multinational consortium, even worse, it's a European multinational consortium. Selling point of the Typhoon is not the cost. It would probably be more expensive than an F-35. Even then, Turkey should still entertain the idea of diversifying its fighter needs away from a single source. Earthquake probably stopped any thoughts on the matter, unfortunately.

2) the proposal that was sent to congress also includes other material and an F35 sale to Greece (which I bet would take the chunky part of the sale)

That is not what the first paragraph suggests.

The Biden administration is preparing to seek congressional approval for a $20 billion sale of new F-16 jet fighters to Turkey along with a separate sale of next-generation F-35 warplanes to Greece

It directly calls the Turkish F-16 deal a 20bil sale and separates it from the Greek F-35 sale. No reason to directly doubt the WSJ made a typo regarding the program cost. Neither sale is presented to the congress yet so we do not have concrete info, but it is what it is.

 

[Heartbang]

Answering the questions of the Russian media

That explains it.

 

[Super falcon 1983]

First of all this is my first post I'm a defence member on pak def since last 15 yrs with more than 15000 posts anyway

My question and argument with turkey is why turkey pursuing f 16 which greeks also will have and they with rafales can dominate Turkish airforce so better of go for J 20 because west will block weapons sales to Türk we y in middle of war with greeks

 

[Ripley]

That would be expected. Typhoon is a multinational consortium, even worse, it's a European multinational consortium. Selling point of the Typhoon is not the cost. It would probably be more expensive than an F-35. Even then, Turkey should still entertain the idea of diversifying its fighter needs away from a single source. Earthquake probably stopped any thoughts on the matter, unfortunately.

That is not what the first paragraph suggests.

It directly calls the Turkish F-16 deal a 20bil sale and separates it from the Greek F-35 sale. No reason to directly doubt the WSJ made a typo regarding the program cost. Neither sale is presented to the congress yet so we do not have concrete info, but it is what it is.

My bad. Deleted it

 

[TR_123456]

First of all this is my first post I'm a defence member on pak def since last 15 yrs with more than 15000 posts anyway

My question and argument with turkey is why turkey pursuing f 16 which greeks also will have and they with rafales can dominate Turkish airforce so better of go for J 20 because west will block weapons sales to Türk we y in middle of war with greeks

Hi @Super falcon 1983 ,there is no way my country will ever go for Chinese or Russian fighterjets.
There is a western style infrastructure in place,nobody is going to change that.
The 40 block 70's together with the 80 upgrade kits are just a stopgap until the TFX is ready.
In a possible war cenario with the Greeks my country doesnt need to have air superiority by fighter jets,we have enough missiles which can cover the distance.