TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Aqerdf]

That is the initial cost of the prototypes. 20 Kaans which will be delivered in 2028. Similar to other fighter projects, costs will go well under 100 million per fighter as the production ramps up for the Turkish needs and exports. Turkiye won't sell those fighters cheap for international customers though.

Lifecycle costs associated with the Kaan are a lot cheaper than the F-35.

Too early to talk and it will be an amateur speculation from my side but in a world where Typhoon, Rafale and even Gripen having same (-or little bit less with hair size ) price with F-35, there is no chance that Kaan will have less purchase price, at least for export.

It will have more high-tech composite usage per kg, more titanium usage per kg, more t/r module per count, more e/o sensor per count and two high power modern engine instead of one. It's designed as 21-meter 5th gen monster, i like to remember this myself from time to time.

Plus more altitude, supercruise capability, etc.

And it would still be a bargain, if you couldn't/won't buy F-35 or want to supplement it.

(If mentioned specs are became reality, hopefully).

 

[Fatman17]

Final countdown: Türkiye's 5th-gen fighter set to make maiden flight

Türkiye's defense and aviation sector is expected to experience a historic moment in the upcoming week as the first flight of the domestically...

www.dailysabah.com

 

[BaburKhan]

Eurofighter: A Strategic Shift in Turkiye's Defence Plans | TURDEF

This article discusses the road to Eurofighter acquisition and its consequences for Turkiye, Greece, Israel, Russia and NATO.

www.turdef.com

 

[BaburKhan]

Eurofighter: A Strategic Shift in Turkiye's Defence Plans | TURDEF

This article discusses the road to Eurofighter acquisition and its consequences for Turkiye, Greece, Israel, Russia and NATO.

www.turdef.com

This Article underline the importance of Rafale Long Range Meteor BVR Missile as well the Advantage in EW. Also TurAF need in the first stages of War to avoid losses until Rafale need maintenance.

It looks not that the West will deliver a modern State 4 or 4.5 Generation Fighter Aircraft until Kaan is ready for serial Production.

I also expect Hürjet will be produced first as lead - in Trainer, that mean no light Attack Variant in the beginning.

Also KE and Anka 3 need the completion of TF-6000 and TF-10000, this will also take some Years.

Russian Aircraft like SU-35 and SU-57 are for some Reason no Option. Could be an Advanced JF-17 Variant with Murad AESA ,Özgür, GÖKDOĞAN, BOZDOĞAN Missiles and other indigenous Weapon Systems an alternative?

Turkey Contemplates China-Pakistan JF-17 "Thunder"? - Defence Security Asia

Turkish exclusion from the F-35 development program and the impediment from acquiring the Eurofighter Typhoon as well as F-16 Block 70 have prompted Turkey to explore the JF-17 "Thunder”, a fighter aircraft jointly-developed by Pakistan and China, as alleged by the local media.

defencesecurityasia.com

 

[Fatman17]

JF17 is just mig 21 We don't need soviet or chinese tech

JF-17C is far more capable than a MiG-21

A PAF JF-17C Block III was landing at the CAC airfield, carrying two PL-10E IIR guided AAMs at the wingtips. As the latest variant of JF-17, Block III represents PAF's ambition to counter the threat from IAF's Su-30MKI. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine, a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-5E IR guided or PL-10E IIR guided AAM, SD-10A or PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails), 500/1000lb REK GPS/INS glide bombs, CM-400AKG ASM. An additional hard point is installed underneath the right engine air intake for KG600 ECM or ASELPOD targeting pod. The maiden flight of the #3000 prototype took place on December 15, 2019. Images of the flight indicated the JF-17C prototype features a J-20 style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward IIR MAWS sensors (RKW2200E?) behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF. It has been rumored that Iraqi AF and Azerbaijani AF have showed some interest. PAC formally launched the production work of JF-17C on December 30, 2020. At least 8 (3Pxx) were on the assembly line, which are powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (August 2021) suggested that an indigenous WS-13X engine has been tested successfully onboard a JF-17C prototype, making it more competitive on the international market. Recent images (January 2022) indicated that the first 8 assembled JF-17Cs (S/N 22-30x) rolled out at PAC. A total of 50 JF-17Cs were reportedly ordered by PAF to replace the remaining F-7PGs.
- Last Updated 8/13/23

 

[cr33pt3d]

I had the chance to attend the paris air show few years back, i guess i'm one of the lucky member here, who had the chance to see, JF 17, Rafale, EF2000, F35, F16 and SU 35 demo flight the same day.
I can tell you one that was flagrant to me, the JF 17 was the least impressive, the plane was slow as fuck compared to others and agility wise it looks more on par with a trainer jet (which i've seen in flight too like M346 or event the YAK 130) than a worthy air fighter.
you might say, dude it was an air show, you can't jump on conclusion ...
i can say at least i have seen in flight, where the plane should expose it's best behaviour and was so poor so slow, turning angle were so large compared to others.

I can't even imagine what help can this jet provide, since even the f16 b30, which i have seen in flight demo seems like a plane from the futur compared to JF17.
i d'ont want be rude to our Pakistani friends, but that was just my experience. i wish jf17 much success, but i don't think it is for us.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

JF-17C is far more capable than a MiG-21

A PAF JF-17C Block III was landing at the CAC airfield, carrying two PL-10E IIR guided AAMs at the wingtips. As the latest variant of JF-17, Block III represents PAF's ambition to counter the threat from IAF's Su-30MKI. The aircraft is expected to feature a more powerful engine, a new AESA radar developed by NETRI/14th Institute (KLJ-7A, range 170km, track 15, engage 4) or by the 607 Institute (LKF601E, air cooled), HMDS, upgraded EW suite, new datalink, full authority digital FBW and a variety of air-to-air and air-to-ground guided weapons including PL-5E IR guided or PL-10E IIR guided AAM, SD-10A or PL-15E active radar homing AAM (using twin launch rails), 500/1000lb REK GPS/INS glide bombs, CM-400AKG ASM. An additional hard point is installed underneath the right engine air intake for KG600 ECM or ASELPOD targeting pod. The maiden flight of the #3000 prototype took place on December 15, 2019. Images of the flight indicated the JF-17C prototype features a J-20 style narrow frame wide-angle holographic HUD (EHUD-2?), a slightly enlarged spine, and new forward IIR MAWS sensors (RKW2200E?) behind the engine air intakes. The rear MAWS sensors were relocated to the EW compartment on top of the vertical fin as well. Otherwise the overall aerodynamic configuration remains the unchanged and the aircraft is still powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (February 2020) suggested that the KLJ-7A AESA radar has been chosen by PAF. It has been rumored that Iraqi AF and Azerbaijani AF have showed some interest. PAC formally launched the production work of JF-17C on December 30, 2020. At least 8 (3Pxx) were on the assembly line, which are powered by the original RD-93 engine. A recent report (August 2021) suggested that an indigenous WS-13X engine has been tested successfully onboard a JF-17C prototype, making it more competitive on the international market. Recent images (January 2022) indicated that the first 8 assembled JF-17Cs (S/N 22-30x) rolled out at PAC. A total of 50 JF-17Cs were reportedly ordered by PAF to replace the remaining F-7PGs.
- Last Updated 8/13/23

The J17 is inferior in all respects to an F16 Block 60/70, Rafaele and Eurofighter.
It makes no sense to buy a fighter that is much worse than the listed fighters.
Saudi Arabia & Co, and Greece have F-16s, Rafaeles and Eurofighters.
Iran will probably get S-35, Turkey needs something more useful than J17 fighters.

It could accelerate the Özgur I & II plan, but these are all components that are more or less prototypes that do not have years of validation behind them.
Even if you upgrade all fighters, in 3-4 years you will only have 140-170 F-16s that are really combat capable.
The rest of the F-16s have so much material fatigue that even upgrading the material and reinforcements in different parts of the aircraft will not help at some point the basic structure e.g. endoskeleton/chassis is so fatigued that it is no longer airworthy.

Turkey will not get any new F-16s, Eurofighters or Rafaeles, that's for sure.
One possibility would be to make an agreement with Sweden and the USA to get Saab Gripen E and couple it with Sweden's entry into NATO.
The USA and EU do not deliver a package as combat aircraft, but possibly the Gripen E, which only partially contains US & EU technology.

The last possibility would be the SU-35S Super Flanker as a license build with additional technology transfer and conversion to Turkish hardware/software in the areas of avionics, weapon system and AESA radar.
But that would be the super disaster in NATO, but quite honestly Turkey has not needed NATO for a very long time.
If you supply Saudi Arabia & Co with new fighter planes and weapons systems and accuse Turkey of deficits in the democratic relationship and thus against the NATO & EU norm.
Then it has more to do with having become a direct rival, and the rest is just excuses because Turkey don't want to dance to the tune of the others. Turkey should look for new partners, perhaps China & Russia in Weapon Technology.

 

[Fatman17]

The J17 is inferior in all respects to an F16 Block 60/70, Rafaele and Eurofighter.
It makes no sense to buy a fighter that is much worse than the listed fighters.
Saudi Arabia & Co, and Greece have F-16s, Rafaeles and Eurofighters.
Iran will probably get S-35, Turkey needs something more useful than J17 fighters.

It could accelerate the Özgur I & II plan, but these are all components that are more or less prototypes that do not have years of validation behind them.
Even if you upgrade all fighters, in 3-4 years you will only have 140-170 F-16s that are really combat capable.
The rest of the F-16s have so much material fatigue that even upgrading the material and reinforcements in different parts of the aircraft will not help at some point the basic structure e.g. endoskeleton/chassis is so fatigued that it is no longer airworthy.

Turkey will not get any new F-16s, Eurofighters or Rafaeles, that's for sure.
One possibility would be to make an agreement with Sweden and the USA to get Saab Gripen E and couple it with Sweden's entry into NATO.
The USA and EU do not deliver a package as combat aircraft, but possibly the Gripen E, which only partially contains US & EU technology.

The last possibility would be the SU-35S Super Flanker as a license build with additional technology transfer and conversion to Turkish hardware/software in the areas of avionics, weapon system and AESA radar.
But that would be the super disaster in NATO, but quite honestly Turkey has not needed NATO for a very long time.
If you supply Saudi Arabia & Co with new fighter planes and weapons systems and accuse Turkey of deficits in the democratic relationship and thus against the NATO & EU norm.
Then it has more to do with having become a direct rival, and the rest is just excuses because Turkey don't want to dance to the tune of the others. Turkey should look for new partners, perhaps China & Russia in Weapon Technology.

I am not advocating Turkey to buy the JF-17 the point was raised by a Turkish nember and secondly the JF-17 is superior to any MiG-21 variation as mentioned by another Turkish member. Regards.

 

[Fatman17]

O

I had the chance to attend the paris air show few years back, i guess i'm one of the lucky member here, who had the chance to see, JF 17, Rafale, EF2000, F35, F16 and SU 35 demo flight the same day.
I can tell you one that was flagrant to me, the JF 17 was the least impressive, the plane was slow as fuck compared to others and agility wise it looks more on par with a trainer jet (which i've seen in flight too like M346 or event the YAK 130) than a worthy air fighter.
you might say, dude it was an air show, you can't jump on conclusion ...
i can say at least i have seen in flight, where the plane should expose it's best behaviour and was so poor so slow, turning angle were so large compared to others.

I can't even imagine what help can this jet provide, since even the f16 b30, which i have seen in flight demo seems like a plane from the futur compared to JF17.
i d'ont want be rude to our Pakistani friends, but that was just my experience. i wish jf17 much success, but i don't think it is for us.

Ok and BTW at the previous anatolian eagle the JF-17 scored 6-0 kill ratio v NATO Typhoons. Regards

 

[Cenkcnk]

We are not in NATO for protection from the non-Nato countries, but protection from NATO countries themself.
JF is garbage and I don't think we can acquire vipers or Eurofighters either. But RF planes shouldn't be bought. These planes don't have anything to give us regarding defense capabilities. The only thing that we can buy from them is design and/or know-how. So we can produce our SU planes with a different name with western or domestic avionics and ammunition.

 

[cr33pt3d]

O

Ok and BTW at the previous anatolian eagle the JF-17 scored 6-0 kill ratio v NATO Typhoons. Regards

Once again my intention was not to trash talk the JF 17, i just said that i have seen it flying and can compare directly again others planes i mentioned earlier. that was my visual impression.
but in a WVR or BWR combat scenarios, i don't have any clue of different jet abilities, that's Air forces job. just shared my experience.
So based on your statement we can assume that TurAF has first hand knowledge of the of JF17 abilities, since it has been tested in Anatolian Eagle on various scenarios and yet we wan't F16's and EF2000.
But if JF 17 fit the PAF needs, i'm happy for you guys.

 

[Quasar]

Ok not wise to call JF 17 garbage or anything our advancement should not a reason for arrogance... especially against friendlies

JF 17 is a succesful project for Pakistan. However it is not for us

 

[Fatman17]

We are not in NATO for protection from the non-Nato countries, but protection from NATO countries themself.
JF is garbage and I don't think we can acquire vipers or Eurofighters either. But RF planes shouldn't be bought. These planes don't have anything to give us regarding defense capabilities. The only thing that we can buy from them is design and/or know-how. So we can produce our SU planes with a different name with western or domestic avionics and ammunition.

Wish you and TuAF all the best. Turkey is used to western largesse and its difficult to break the habit just like Pakistan with the USA FMS program. We went for the JF-17 out of necessity but not to fill the numbers but to have a fighter which can hold its own v superior adversary.

 

[Fatman17]

Once again my intention was not to trash talk the JF 17, i just said that i have seen it flying and can compare directly again others planes i mentioned earlier. that was my visual impression.
but in a WVR or BWR combat scenarios, i don't have any clue of different jet abilities, that's Air forces job. just shared my experience.
So based on your statement we can assume that TurAF has first hand knowledge of the of JF17 abilities, since it has been tested in Anatolian Eagle on various scenarios and yet we wan't F16's and EF2000.
But if JF 17 fit the PAF needs, i'm happy for you guys.

Exactly and believe me if PAF was offered additional F-16s they would grab them with their eyes closed.

 

[Fatman17]

Fair enough

Ok not wise to call JF 17 garbage or anything our advancement should not a reason for arrogance... especially against friendlies

JF 17 is a succesful project for Pakistan. However it is not for us

 

[Fatman17]

Thanks everyone for the discussions but we know at the end of the day " it's the man behind the wheel or stick " who has the final say regardless of the mount he or she is flying

 

[IC3M@N FX]

It makes no sense if the J-17 can keep up with or even surpass the F-16 Block 60/70, Eurofighter Block 3/4 and the current Rafaele.
Then Turkey wouldn't be knocking on everyone's door, a contract would have been signed with Pakistan long ago to get these fighter jets modified with Turkish avionics and the like.
Then we would save ourselves all the trouble but that is not the case, nothing against our Pakistani friends but the fighter jet is simply inferior to the Western models, and that is nothing to be ashamed of. Turkey also has to deliver first with the KAAN and Hürjet, and only with later blocks will the performance of the western models be achieved.
I am happy to be proven wrong, but I assume that there are experts in the Turkish armed forces who know what they are doing.
Even the advice of TAI will be sought as to which fighter aircraft makes sense and to bring balance and deterrence to the countries around it.

 

[boredaf]

JF-17 has 1.5 tons of payload, unless I'm misremembering, it is not in the same class as other planes that we've been interested in in terms of payload capacity. It is closer to Hürjet in fact. That fact alone should disqualify it, let alone 40% of it being produced at China last time I checked.

If we can't get F-16s or Eurofighters, we have to focus on engine development and Hürjet's second iteration, on top of drones like Anka-3 and KE. While I do believe we need interim solutions until Kaan is ready, we shouldn't just get jets just so we could say we get them.

 

[Fatman17]

JF-17C is comparable to early model F16s ( Block 25 to 40). I'm sure it will give a good account of itself especially in the hands of a experienced fighter pilot.

It makes no sense if the J-17 can keep up with or even surpass the F-16 Block 60/70, Eurofighter Block 3/4 and the current Rafaele.
Then Turkey wouldn't be knocking on everyone's door, a contract would have been signed with Pakistan long ago to get these fighter jets modified with Turkish avionics and the like.
Then we would save ourselves all the trouble but that is not the case, nothing against our Pakistani friends but the fighter jet is simply inferior to the Western models, and that is nothing to be ashamed of. Turkey also has to deliver first with the KAAN and Hürjet, and only with later blocks will the performance of the western models be achieved.
I am happy to be proven wrong, but I assume that there are experts in the Turkish armed forces who know what they are doing.
Even the advice of TAI will be sought as to which fighter aircraft makes sense and to bring balance and deterrence to the countries around it.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

JF-17C is comparable to early model F16s ( Block 25 to 40). I'm sure it will give a good account of itself especially in the hands of a experienced fighter pilot.

And that's the problem: you can't possibly have 300-400 excellent pilots who also have incredible experience.
That's utopian, and so a very advanced aircraft masks some of these inaccessibilities.
The aircraft itself basically takes on some of these necessary characteristics on the battlefield to increase its survivability.
Because no matter how good a pilot you are, if the enemy aircraft has an above-average pilot and is technically at least two levels above you, you've already lost, even if you have exceptional flying talent.
After all, no country in the world will send a lousy or completely mediocre pilot in a latest-generation fighter jet, because after all, these are valuable defense assets.

No country in the world, not even India, will ever attack Pakistan or exert massive pressure.
Pakistan has nuclear weapons and that is an insurance policy that Turkey does not have. Therefore, J-17s would be enough to respond to conflicts; for everything else, the threat of nuclear weapons is there to keep the enemy's feet still.