TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Huelague]

Absolutely won't be anything like this

Ukraine thought same about Russian until its happened.

 

[Nutuk]

Why not? There is already the concept idea to make Kizilelma twin engine. A cooperation with Tusas to make that drone a twin engined jet fighter with 2x T10000 engines is technically very possible, question is do we still need the pilot, if yes than it could be a smart way

 

[Nutuk]

Ukraine thought same about Russian until its happened.

How many dogfights occurred between Ukrainian fighter jets and Russians?

 

[boredaf]

I know, that you know details on both incidents. Syria is broke and one Russian jet kill, doesnt count much. Lets take a (full out) war with Greece. Imagine the hundreds of fighter jet. Than the sight range of the enemy on both sides. The moment where both sides have their jets in the sky, they are in sight range for both. Sooner or later, it will come to a dogfight.

Airspace between Turkey and Greece is in the range of both of our air defences, unless one of us manage to destroy or supress the other side's air defence completely neither side would unnecessarily risk their fighters, therefore, there wouldn't be dogfights, especially not with "hundreds of fighter jets"

 

[Huelague]

How many dogfights occurred between Ukrainian fighter jets and Russians?

I mean regarding a war, not a dogfighting.

 

[Huelague]

Airspace between Turkey and Greece is in the range of both of our air defences, unless one of us manage to destroy or supress the other side's air defence completely neither side would unnecessarily risk their fighters, therefore, there wouldn't be dogfights, especially not with "hundreds of fighter jets"

Suppress the radar is possible by flighing low. Which is easier on water. And of course, you will not use all Fighter Jets at once.

 

[uçuyorum]

People who lust about a manned Kızılelma don't understant the point and appeal of the system in the first place. Kızılelma is possible exactly because its unmanned. The moment you try to put a human inside the complexity increases exponentially. You now have to worry about every aspect of keeping a human alive. You need to increase defenses, put systems to support a human, ejection seat, all the testing required, then you end up with big and expensive fighter and it becomes poor man's gripen or something.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Point of having new and capable 4th, or rather 4.5, gen planes is not to have them go against 5th gen planes. 5th gen planes are expensive to produce AND to fly, that's why even US and China is still buying/producing 4th gen planes. When US air force asked the Congress for permission to retire 150 aircraft, neither F-16s nor F-15s were included in that list. You don't need to use an F-35/J-20 for every mission, sometimes an F-15 or J-10 does the job just fine. Why put extra hours on the engine and the frame unnecessarily, and for a high price? Smaller nations that barely have an air force worth mentioning might transition all the way to 5th gen but for nations that have to have a big air force for diverse missions it is neither economical nor logical.


Hürjet is a year or two away from starting its production as a trainer. There isn't even a proper light attack configuration yet, let alone a naval version. It isn't even a naval aircraft, there are multiple parts/systems that would have to be changed for it to be one. And TCG Anadolu itself would have to go through major changes to be able to use Hürjet, hell as it is, it won't even be able to use KE.

And all of these doesn't just take money, it also takes time, resources and manpower. What makes you think that only thing slowing down Hürjet and Özgür project is money? You are making a lot of assumptions based on nothing but it'll all be faster if we just throw money at it. There are only so many designers, engineers and technicians with different expertise that can work on these projects, just as only so many companies, which are also handling other projects.

The Hürjet and TCG Anadolu were not commissioned as a project yesterday, and I think 2-3 years until the first production aircraft is not unrealistic.
The point is that the Hürjet and Özgur I & II project must be completed in the 2-3 years so that we do not lose our clout.
So instead of blocking the budget in the hope that we will get Eurofighters or new F-16s, we should simply forget about both from the outset, we won't get them.
Because I'm sure we're blocking this budget in the hope that we'll get something, because if it comes to a deal, the USA wants additional money as an advance payment for F-16s as a difference to the money they've already received for the F-35.
With the Eurofighter they will demand the same way the EU, they would want at least half of the money for the planes in advance in order to be able to produce them at all.
So instead of blocking the money you should invest it for Hürjet, F-16 Özgur and Anka 3 platform to speed it up even more.

 

[Kartal1]

People who lust about a manned Kızılelma don't understant the point and appeal of the system in the first place. Kızılelma is possible exactly because its unmanned. The moment you try to put a human inside the complexity increases exponentially. You now have to worry about every aspect of keeping a human alive. You need to increase defenses, put systems to support a human, ejection seat, all the testing required, then you end up with big and expensive fighter and it becomes poor man's gripen or something.

Kizilelma is a small drone. I am talking something in the size of HURJET. Used Kizilelma only as a reference to the concept of our brother. Think of it like a stealth HURJET.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Kizilelma is a small drone. I am talking something in the size of HURJET. Used Kizilelma only as a reference to the concept of our brother. Think of it like a stealth HURJET.

I don't know what you mean..
KE is larger than Hürjet except for its height.

 

[Kartal1]

I don't know what you mean..
KE is larger than Hürjet except for its height.

I am sorry! I totally mixed it up. I meant it in terms of payload capacity.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

I am sorry! I totally mixed it up. I meant it in terms of payload capacity.

Makes sense

 

[Quasar]

For the sake of preventing any misunderstanding

My lust is for a stealth carrier based MANNED aircraft with F 110, TF 10000 or TF35000... I am of the opinion of Data collected from KE ''design'' can be useful instead of starting from scratch..... the quantitty that we need is not realy that much Or eventhough it is far from perfect Plan A is always there i.e navalized Hürjet

So as you stated ''keeping a human alive'' This is my concern as well, since a stealth carrier based fighter is better suited for the task at hand than a navalized Hürjet

Asking for a stealth carrier based MANNED aircraft in 10 + years shouldnt be such a crazy idea? one way or other it seems inevitable to me

 

[Baryshx]

I started this discussion of drone vs F35, because all nations (who can build it) are rushing now to build stealth "loyal wingman" drones.

The basic idea is of course that these drones fly ahead of the "mothership" 5th or 6th generation fighter jet. They will serve both ways, if they can detect the enemy fighter or drone first the first to release the missile will be at advantage. But even if the drone is shotdown, it may give the mothership time to shoot the missiles and scoot.

So my argument of KE vs F35 is not just a fantasy, it's a quite probable scenario in the short future

This is a good tactic, but the other side will use the same tactic. Radars, sensors, weapons, etc. will come into play here and the better quality will have the advantage.

 

[Baryshx]

Kizilelma is a small drone. I am talking something in the size of HURJET. Used Kizilelma only as a reference to the concept of our brother. Think of it like a stealth HURJET.

Is it easier to turn the Hürjet into stealth or KE into manned?

 

[Kartal1]

Is it easier to turn the Hürjet into stealth or KE into manned?

I don't think it would be like turning one into another.

Most probably this will be a bird that is designed from scratch using the accumulated know-how on stealth manned jet design and subsystems. Other than Kızılelma we also have KAAN as an example of a stealth fighter (manned).

 

[I_Love_F16]

I know, that you know details on both incidents. Syria is broke and one Russian jet kill, doesnt count much. Lets take a (full out) war with Greece. Imagine the hundreds of fighter jet. Than the sight range of the enemy on both sides. The moment where both sides have their jets in the sky, they are in sight range for both. Sooner or later, it will come to a dogfight.

A decent pilot wouldn’t risk his own life and his jet to dogfight. The goal when engaging enemy fighter jets is to avoid any close combat. Basically you shoot your Air to Air missiles in BVR and just RTB.

 

[Huelague]

A decent pilot wouldn’t risk his own life and his jet to dogfight. The goal when engaging enemy fighter jets is to avoid any close combat. Basically you shoot your Air to Air missiles in BVR and just RTB.

This is plan A. If plan A goes wrong. What is plan B?

 

[Aqerdf]

Unpopular opinions, for short and mid. term planning:

-New production Tb-2s should be modified to use PG-115s in mid term.

*Proven, reliable engine, why not to use. Changing Rotax 912 architecture to Rotax 914 architecture is not that a hard thing imo. They constantly upgrade Tb-2, this should also be in their change log imo.

- Hürkuş - IIs and a variant of Akıncı should mated with TP1400+.

* PT6 alternative, probably would be more fuel efficient and would have more power at higher altitudes, my amateur speculation. Because it's a newer engine. Both Hürkuş - II and Akıncı would enjoy more lift / more loitering time / more power at higher altitude. KT-1Ts are can hold the line years more. Hürkuş - II can become online with new engine, after developing the plane with PT-6.


- T625, T629, T925 and T929 should use TS1400+ with double/triple engine configurations. At least to the 2030s. Then a new 3000shp engine should became online.

*Mr. Akşit says the engine it reached 1571 shp continuous power. Our TEI build T700s have 1700shp continuous power afaik. Three of these should be sufficient enough. But of course, nothing will be better than 3000shp with2500+shp continuous power engine. But it's backlogged behind TF10k. TS1400 will also have EASA afaik, so it will be a proven mature engine. And common engine among our helicopter fleets would be both maintenance & cost effective. Again, at least to 2030s, until TS3000 becomes online with new variations of T9XX helicopter series.

-Every kind of variation of TF10k should be created. Naval turbine, natural gas chamberers, generators, civilian turbofan engines, etc.

* LM500 is in not active production much afaik. New opportunity for TEI and GE Marine. Industrial and civilian aviation versions would also create more income and more flexibility. Especially if we talking about national regional airliners.

-----------------------

**Why i'm writing these.. TEI will need more funding. For 5th,6th, etc. gen engine R&Ds. It should supported with more sales. And for growth.

*** I couldn't find the proper thread in this forum. Propulsion thread would be better but these are contains lots of what-ifs. So that's why i posted here in TurAF News and Discussions thread, sorry

 

[UkroTurk]

I am just loudly thinking. Welcoming Sweden in NATO could bring some Gripens?

Might Turkey Seek Gripens From Sweden If Denied Eurofighters?

The Gripen undoubtedly fits the bill as an adequate alternative for many of the roles Ankara envisioned the Eurofighter fulfilling.

www.forbes.com

On the other hand Türkish Air Force ordered 40 Hürkuş so TurAF urges 40additinol pilots?