TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Samba]

Before everyone starts wetting the bed, or, losing their heads, this is the "bill":

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-joint-resolution/60/text

It is just introduced and referred to Foreign Relations committee. And this is the process it needs to go through before it means jack shit:

• Introduced
• Passed Senate
• Passed House
• To President
• Became Law

And, since Republicans control the House and Democrats control the Senate and those two never votes for something the other side brings on the floor, this has no chance of passing. This Congress, both of its houses, have been the single least productive in US history.

All should be concluded in 3 days..

 

[YeşilVatan]

Germany has to be the most pathetic country in the whole world, they blocked the sale of 48 Eurofighters to Saudi Arabia for 6 years, and now just recently they lifted the ban because there was a real possibility of the Eurofighter production lines shutting down. Now you are forced to sell to Turkiye..

Yeah. And the demographic winter. And deindustrialization. And that stuck up attitude.

They are unsalvageable.

 

[Afif]

Yeah. And the demographic winter. And deindustrialization. And that stuck up attitude.

They are unsalvageable.

Deindustrialization? I thought the most industrialization country in Europe was Germany. More than one and half trillion dollars of export. I don't know if any developed country has such high export to GDP ratio in the world.

 

[TheInsider]

Deindustrialization? I thought the most industrialization country in Europe was Germany. More than one and half trillion dollars of export. I don't know if any developed country has such high export to GDP ratio in the world.

Yes, but the trend is backward due to high costs and new competitors.

 

[Rooxbar]

Yes, it is laughable that, possibly needing to buy Eurofighter, TR's leader goes to Germany and alienates its leader, making that less possible. Full marks for displaying such diplomatic skill!

PS The British probably spent years trying to unblock Eurofighter export sales to KSA. In one short visit President Edogan has possibly blown the chances of it being exported to Turkiye. I don't think he is too popular with either Germany or UK now.

Like always, the limits of the western mind can only stretch to the borders of western media coverage landscape. You know the narrative of your own side only. We know that but we also know how Germany has become a safe haven for most of the highest ranking Gulenists, people who cheated on tests to get to places and merely months after the coup when they fled, they became think tank members, assistant professors, writers for "prestigious" mags. Cevheri Güven, Zekeriya Öz, Abdullah Aymaz, Can Dündar, Atakan Adaşoğlu, Ercan Karakoyun, Fikret Seçen, İlhami Polat, Celal Kara, all top-ranking collaborators of the coup and responsible for unimaginable damage to our country fled to Greece but Greeks thought they might be caught there due to approximity and ease of operation by Turkish inteeligence, so they were sent to Germany where all of them got lucrative jobs and positions through which they constantly provoke against Turkey and spread fake news.

Honestly all of that is expected, what is somewhat less expected is the silence of German and European Intelligentsia in the face of utterly unqualified people getting to these positions in a matter of months after the coup. So when even your intelligentsia is silent on these issues, obviosuly you will have no clue about any of this because as I said the limits of the Western mind stretches at most to the borders of their media's coverage landscape (and mostly not even that, but only the oft-repeated headlines).

The only reason we have to put up with this is our economic woes and our dependence on European markets for our exports; otherwise these hostile actions should have been met with much harsher reactions. We also want to get Typhoons, but obviously if our president criticizng some other country in a press conference with German chancellor is reason enough for them to continue their hostility, then no groveling is warranted and I'd say more power to him to continue criticizing any third party he wants.

 

[Spitfire9]

Suudi Arabistan'a bir savaş uçağı daha teklif edildi: F-15EX

Daha önce bu ihtiyacın yeni bir Eurofighter Typhoon grubu için olacağı varsayılmıştı ancak Suudi Arabistan, Almanya'nın Suudi Arabistan'a ihracat yasağının ardından diğer seçenekleri değerlendiriyor.

gdh.digital

WDS: Three-way dogfight for Saudi fighter order | Aviation Week Network

A long-standing Royal Saudi Air Force fighter requirement is now being contested by the Dassault Rafale, the Boeing F-15EX, and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

www.timesaerospace.aero

You can't make this up..
Saudi Arabia is offered Rafale, Eurofighter, and now F-15EX.

Given that it is an election year, and Trump has a possibility of winning and abandoning Saudi Arabia in the Middle East, I put my bet on the
F-15EX. Saudis can win the favor of the US and get a better aircraft than the Eurofighter.

Germany has to be the most pathetic country in the whole world, they blocked the sale of 48 Eurofighters to Saudi Arabia for 6 years, and now just recently they lifted the ban because there was a real possibility of the Eurofighter production lines shutting down. Now you are forced to sell to Turkiye..

Spoiler

You are aware that Germany has ordered 38 Eurofighters and Spain has ordered 20, so those lines will not be shutting down in the next few years? There was debate as to whether Spain would order F-35 to replace its Hornets but it looks like they will be replaced with Eurofighters.

Italy and UK are close to finishing assembly of current Eurofighter orders but Italy may secure an order from Egypt as part of a comprehensive weapons deal under negotiation.

Given the change in emphasis on defence due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the deteriorating security situation in the Middle East, the UK government may choose to order more Eurofighters to replace its early Tranche 1 aircraft.

So, while BAE Systems would welcome an order from KSA or Turkiye it is not necessarily the end of UK Eurofighter assembly f it receives no new order from KSA or Turkiye. Whatever happens with new orders, the planned MLU of RAF's Tranche 2 Typhoons will keep BAE Systems busy for years.

 

[Spitfire9]

Like always, the limits of the western mind can only stretch to the borders of western media coverage landscape. You know the narrative of your own side only.

What nonsense you talk. My comments about your leader were based entirely on what I heard him say ie his words, his narrative.

I am open to receiving criticism but not criticism that is utterly unfounded. I suggest that you retract.

 

[Rooxbar]

What nonsense you talk. My comments about your leader were based entirely on what I heard him say ie his words, his narrative.

I am open to receiving criticism but not criticism that is utterly unfounded. I suggest that you retract.

It might be time to try undoing the damage caused to German-Turkish relations when President Erdogan last went to Germany.

Yes, it is laughable that, possibly needing to buy Eurofighter, TR's leader goes to Germany and alienates its leader, making that less possible. Full marks for displaying such diplomatic skill!

PS The British probably spent years trying to unblock Eurofighter export sales to KSA. In one short visit President Edogan has possibly blown the chances of it being exported to Turkiye. I don't think he is too popular with either Germany or UK now.

These things you are aware of, and emphasize, are because of the climate your media has created by the stuff they emphasize and by the stuff they omit. Nobody lives in a vacuum, and your idea of the causes of strain in Turkish-German relations only being inferred personally from a singular press conference taken prima facie and devoid of context, is inherently impossible.

 

[Sanchez]

I guess this means IVEWS confirmed for F-16Vs. Nice.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1755566700194419038

 

[Spitfire9]

These things you are aware of, and emphasize, are because of the climate your media has created by the stuff they emphasize and by the stuff they omit. Nobody lives in a vacuum, and your idea of the causes of strain in Turkish-German relations only being inferred personally from a singular press conference taken prima facie and devoid of context, is inherently impossible.

Of course the media can affect opinions by omission. I avoid media that report selectively or place undue emphasis with the intent of shaping opinion.

What exactly is your complaint?

Mr Erdogan goes to Germany, reportedly in the hope that Germany will become agreeable to Turkiye buying Eurofighter.
Mr Erdogan makes an inflammatory speech in public putting Scholz in an awkward position.
Mr Erdogan leaves Germany without Germany saying it is agreeable to Turkiye buying Eurofighter.

Mission accomplished or Scholz alienated?

 

[Strong AI]

I guess this means IVEWS confirmed for F-16Vs. Nice.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1755566700194419038

It was already mentioned here: "one hundred sixty-eight (168) Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) or equivalent Electronic Warfare (EW) systems (40 installed, 10 spares, 118 for modernization program (79 installed, 39 spares));"

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency​

www.dsca.mil

 

[Sanchez]

It was already mentioned here: "one hundred sixty-eight (168) Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) or equivalent Electronic Warfare (EW) systems (40 installed, 10 spares, 118 for modernization program (79 installed, 39 spares));"

Yes, the "or equivalent Electronic Warfare (EW) systems" part.

Hence the confirmed.
-
Number of spares for this is interesting, especially for the mod part(1/4 new builds and 1/2 for mods). Wonder if it's a new system and they fear of possible problems with units or if something else like some IVEWS equipped Özgürs, if that is even possible.

 

[Strong AI]

Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) or equivalent Electronic Warfare (EW) systems

So this

F-16 Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) | Northrop Grumman

The AN/ALQ-257 Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) is designed to give F-16 electronic warfare (EW) capabilities on a par with fifth-generation aircraft, significantly enhancing survivability for operations in contested and congested electromagnetic spectrum environments.

www.northropgrumman.com

vs. this?

Viper Shield™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 All-digital Electronic Warfare Suite

The Viper Shield all-digital electronic warfare (EW) suite is custom designed to be baseline on advanced F-16 aircraft and maximize their survivability and mission success.

www.l3harris.com

How do we know that which one is better?

 

[Afif]

So this

F-16 Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) | Northrop Grumman

The AN/ALQ-257 Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) is designed to give F-16 electronic warfare (EW) capabilities on a par with fifth-generation aircraft, significantly enhancing survivability for operations in contested and congested electromagnetic spectrum environments.

www.northropgrumman.com

vs. this?

Viper Shield™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 All-digital Electronic Warfare Suite

The Viper Shield all-digital electronic warfare (EW) suite is custom designed to be baseline on advanced F-16 aircraft and maximize their survivability and mission success.

www.l3harris.com

How do we know that which one is better?

Well, the USAF has chosen the latter iirc.

 

[Strong AI]

ChatGPT:

The AN/ALQ-257 Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) and the VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 All-Digital Electronic Warfare Suite are both advanced electronic warfare systems used to protect aircraft from various threats. While they serve similar purposes, there may be differences in their capabilities and features. Here's a comparison based on their known characteristics:

1. **Generation and Technology**:
- The AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS is likely a newer generation system, potentially featuring more advanced technology compared to the AN/ALQ-254(V)1 VIPER SHIELD™. It may incorporate the latest advancements in electronic warfare technology, such as advanced signal processing and threat detection algorithms.
- The VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 is an all-digital electronic warfare suite, indicating that it utilizes digital signal processing techniques for threat detection and countermeasures. However, it may not be as advanced or integrated as the AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS.

2. **Integration and Modularity**:
- The AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS might offer greater integration with other avionics systems and sensors on the aircraft. It could be designed to seamlessly integrate with the aircraft's mission systems for enhanced situational awareness and coordinated response to threats.
- The VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 may be modular in design, allowing for easier integration into a variety of aircraft platforms. However, it might not offer the same level of integration and interoperability as the AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS.

3. **Threat Detection and Jamming Capabilities**:
- Both systems are likely equipped with capabilities for detecting and jamming various types of threats, including radar-guided missiles, anti-aircraft artillery, and other electronic warfare systems.
- The AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS may have more advanced threat detection algorithms and jamming techniques, potentially offering better performance against modern and emerging threats.
- The VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1, while also effective, might not have the same level of sophistication or adaptability as the newer AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS.

4. **Size, Weight, and Power (SWaP)**:
- The AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS may benefit from advancements in miniaturization and power efficiency, resulting in a smaller size, lower weight, and reduced power consumption compared to older systems like the VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1.
- The VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 might be bulkier and require more power to operate, potentially limiting its suitability for certain aircraft platforms or missions where SWaP constraints are critical.

Overall, while both the AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS and the VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 are capable electronic warfare suites, the former likely represents a more advanced and integrated solution with superior performance and capabilities, while the latter might offer a more modular and adaptable option suitable for a wider range of aircraft platforms and mission requirements.

 

[Sanchez]

So this

F-16 Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) | Northrop Grumman

The AN/ALQ-257 Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) is designed to give F-16 electronic warfare (EW) capabilities on a par with fifth-generation aircraft, significantly enhancing survivability for operations in contested and congested electromagnetic spectrum environments.

www.northropgrumman.com

vs. this?

Viper Shield™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 All-digital Electronic Warfare Suite

The Viper Shield all-digital electronic warfare (EW) suite is custom designed to be baseline on advanced F-16 aircraft and maximize their survivability and mission success.

www.l3harris.com

How do we know that which one is better?

We can't know which is better, and they both probably have their own advantages.

Turkey is a user of L3 EW suites and pods for a long time and we know that they advertised Viper Shield for Turkey for some time:

“Five Nations Around the World Have Committed to Viper Shield on their Advanced F-16 Aircraft”

In 2021 the Turkish Government submitted a Letter of Request (LoR) to the U.S. Government, for the procurement of 40 new-build F-16V Block 70 fighter jets and 79 upgrade kits for the modernization of 29 Block 50+ and 50 Block 40M aircraft to the Block 70 level in the Turkish Air Force (TurAF)...

www.defenceturkey.com

To my knowledge US went ahead with IVEWS for modernizing their own F-16s and while we could get Viper Shield and despite our long time business with L3, we opted for IVEWS, the newer suite that US will also use. While new F-16V users "Bahrain, Morocco, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Taiwan" opted for viper Shield, I believe we are currently set to be the only operator of IVEWS alongside US.
Nevermind the last part:
"Turkey is one of two foreign air forces that have selected the IVEWS, and the programme officials are “in conversations with a number of countries right now” regarding potential procurement of the system, according to Conroy"

Turkey selects Northrop Grumman for F-16 EW upgrades

Turkey will upgrade its fleet of F-16 fighter aircraft with Northrop Grumman's latest electronic warfare (EW) suite, with plans to integrate the system into future...

www.janes.com

 

[Rooxbar]

Of course the media can affect opinions by omission. I avoid media that report selectively or place undue emphasis with the intent of shaping opinion.

What exactly is your complaint?

Mr Erdogan goes to Germany, reportedly in the hope that Germany will become agreeable to Turkiye buying Eurofighter.
Mr Erdogan makes an inflammatory speech in public putting Scholz in an awkward position.
Mr Erdogan leaves Germany without Germany saying it is agreeable to Turkiye buying Eurofighter.

Mission accomplished or Scholz alienated?

I think there's some merit in what you say, but it puts all the onus of the direction and level of bilateral relations on a single incident instigated by the Turkish side, which has happened in a vacuum and not in the context of the history of the relations that has shaped it until it has reached this point.

I for instance didn't see anything inflammatory about his speech and I didn't think Scholz was put in an awkward position, but I can see how one might think that if they assume and inherit all the presuppositions and biases which lead to the positions of the European press, as that was how it was reported in all of European media; seeing the concord in which the incident was reported, one might forget that the way it was reported is just one specific reading of the situation borne out of one specific outlook. Naturally I couldn't interpret his speech, esp. comparing it to the actions of the German state beforehand, as having that much weight in bilateral relations. German government constantly yaps about human rights in Turkey while sheltering, elevating and platforming terrorists. From where I look, I think Erdogan's remarks and attitude is very timid in the face of his counterpart's respective outlook. Sometimes you gotta let them know you stand with a considerable portion of the host country's population which also thinks Israel is committing genocide and you would like their government to take the humanitarian position in trying to stop the bloodshed.

Another assumption here is that Turkey is so desperate for Typhoons that it should be ready to self-censor or soften its stance and limit its speech in line with the liking and the narrative of a third country with regards to an unrelated issue. This is too much to ask.

There's also another implicit assumption that Turkey's attempts at buying Typhoons is just that: to buy fighter jets; this assumption would lead one to presume that, naturally, Turkey must do everything it can to acquire these fighters by appeasing Germany if they want these jets. This is also unwarranted and a simple reading of the situation. This is a world of shifting alliances and uncertain futures. In these situations you must gauge commitment, try to get a read on future plans, and put hard questions in front of seemingly united fronts.

 

[Khagan1923]

We can't know which is better, and they both probably have their own advantages.

Turkey is a user of L3 EW suites and pods for a long time and we know that they advertised Viper Shield for Turkey for some time:

“Five Nations Around the World Have Committed to Viper Shield on their Advanced F-16 Aircraft”

In 2021 the Turkish Government submitted a Letter of Request (LoR) to the U.S. Government, for the procurement of 40 new-build F-16V Block 70 fighter jets and 79 upgrade kits for the modernization of 29 Block 50+ and 50 Block 40M aircraft to the Block 70 level in the Turkish Air Force (TurAF)...

www.defenceturkey.com

To my knowledge US went ahead with IVEWS for modernizing their own F-16s and while we could get Viper Shield and despite our long time business with L3, we opted for IVEWS, the newer suite that US will also use. While new F-16V users "Bahrain, Morocco, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Taiwan" opted for viper Shield, I believe we are currently set to be the only operator of IVEWS alongside US.
Nevermind the last part:
"Turkey is one of two foreign air forces that have selected the IVEWS, and the programme officials are “in conversations with a number of countries right now” regarding potential procurement of the system, according to Conroy"

Turkey selects Northrop Grumman for F-16 EW upgrades

Turkey will upgrade its fleet of F-16 fighter aircraft with Northrop Grumman's latest electronic warfare (EW) suite, with plans to integrate the system into future...

www.janes.com

Gonna guess just by my gut IVEWS is the better product, both it and the APG-83 are made by Northrop Grumman possible giving it an edge performance wise. Also it probably has a reason why TurAF as a long time customer of L3 decided to go with the IVEWS.

Don't know about Viper Shield but thanks to IVEWS our modernized and newly built F-16 won't need to carry any ECM pods anymore.

Curiously just realized our neighbor hasn't chosen any EW suite , have they?

just looked up their F-16 upgrade package

upgrade and integration of the Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suite (ASPIS) I to ASPIS II on twenty-six (26) F-16s

so pretty much the majority of their upgraded F-16s are defenseless. Unless of course that second customer is them though I doubt it.

btw ASPIS II is from the early 2000s, so you can get a clue how effective it will be in the modern theatre.

 

[godel44]

Of course the media can affect opinions by omission. I avoid media that report selectively or place undue emphasis with the intent of shaping opinion.

What exactly is your complaint?

Mr Erdogan goes to Germany, reportedly in the hope that Germany will become agreeable to Turkiye buying Eurofighter.
Mr Erdogan makes an inflammatory speech in public putting Scholz in an awkward position.
Mr Erdogan leaves Germany without Germany saying it is agreeable to Turkiye buying Eurofighter.

Mission accomplished or Scholz alienated?

His purpose for going to Germany was not Eurofighter jets and nothing he said there was wrong. If the Germans can't bear hearing the truth maybe they should change their ways. And as a country who put an embargo on Turkey with the express of aim of supporting the PKK terrorist organization, Germany deserves to hear much worse.

Eurofighters are a nice to have but not necessary. It might even be better to direct the funds to Kaan at this point. It's certainly not worth it to appease the false sense of European superiority in the last few decades they still matter.

 

[UkroTurk]

ChatGPT:

The AN/ALQ-257 Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) and the VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 All-Digital Electronic Warfare Suite are both advanced electronic warfare systems used to protect aircraft from various threats. While they serve similar purposes, there may be differences in their capabilities and features. Here's a comparison based on their known characteristics:

1. **Generation and Technology**:
- The AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS is likely a newer generation system, potentially featuring more advanced technology compared to the AN/ALQ-254(V)1 VIPER SHIELD™. It may incorporate the latest advancements in electronic warfare technology, such as advanced signal processing and threat detection algorithms.
- The VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 is an all-digital electronic warfare suite, indicating that it utilizes digital signal processing techniques for threat detection and countermeasures. However, it may not be as advanced or integrated as the AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS.

2. **Integration and Modularity**:
- The AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS might offer greater integration with other avionics systems and sensors on the aircraft. It could be designed to seamlessly integrate with the aircraft's mission systems for enhanced situational awareness and coordinated response to threats.
- The VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 may be modular in design, allowing for easier integration into a variety of aircraft platforms. However, it might not offer the same level of integration and interoperability as the AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS.

3. **Threat Detection and Jamming Capabilities**:
- Both systems are likely equipped with capabilities for detecting and jamming various types of threats, including radar-guided missiles, anti-aircraft artillery, and other electronic warfare systems.
- The AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS may have more advanced threat detection algorithms and jamming techniques, potentially offering better performance against modern and emerging threats.
- The VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1, while also effective, might not have the same level of sophistication or adaptability as the newer AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS.

4. **Size, Weight, and Power (SWaP)**:
- The AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS may benefit from advancements in miniaturization and power efficiency, resulting in a smaller size, lower weight, and reduced power consumption compared to older systems like the VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1.
- The VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 might be bulkier and require more power to operate, potentially limiting its suitability for certain aircraft platforms or missions where SWaP constraints are critical.

Overall, while both the AN/ALQ-257 IVEWS and the VIPER SHIELD™ AN/ALQ-254(V)1 are capable electronic warfare suites, the former likely represents a more advanced and integrated solution with superior performance and capabilities, while the latter might offer a more modular and adaptable option suitable for a wider range of aircraft platforms and mission requirements.

Those systems make RF guided A2A Missiles and SAMs blind, don't they? İ don't think they could jam modern ground radars however jamming active seeker of missiles is quite enough.