TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

Xenon54

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If even Egypt and Pakistan have 5k tanks, we need at least 5000 brand new Altays.
Do you even have enough personnel to maintain that many tanks, i dont even talk about the cost.
Numbers alone mean nothing.
 

Ravenman

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Do you even have enough personnel to maintain that many tanks, i dont even talk about the cost.
Numbers alone mean nothing.

So we are spending almost 16 years long money, resources and time in a main battle tank project to only produce 250 tanks?

We must replace all our excisting tanks with the Altay, it must be our own Merkava. Otherwise its a dead investment/project.
 

Xenon54

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So we are spending almost 16 years long money, resources and time in a main battle tank project to only produce 250 tanks?

We must replace all our excisting tanks with the Altay, it must be our own Merkava. Otherwise its a dead investment/project.
The project has always been about around 1000 tanks which is enough.
 

YeşilVatan

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The way warfare is evolving, we need IFVs, MRAPs, APCs etc. MBTs are going to take a much more limited (yet critical) role in the future wars. They are going to be much more about sensors and APSs.

Our planning no longer should be about eastern systems. Our scout-identify-follow-destroy infrastructure (drone warfare) is more than enough for that. When TB3 with its short take off capability enters service, we will have a air to ground attack force that can't be eliminated by bombing airfields. Which means eastern style armies will no longer pose a threat via armor. Think about it; average squad will probably have enough to destroy a soviet tank, or will be able to call fire support.

What happens if we face western armies? We need a large caliber cannon (130 mm) to destroy well armored tanks, good FCS to hit them from far away and sufficinent protection capability to shield the tank from javelin-like missiles or missiles coming from air. Tanks in this instance will be utilized to destroy enemy tanks because they will have similar protection capabilities as well. Western tanks won't be easily destroyed by a MAM bomb or missiles/rockets used by infantry. Good news is they are going to be fewer in numbers. So we can build fewer tanks to counter them.

I might be completely wrong though. This is just what I gathered.
 

No Name

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The way warfare is evolving, we need IFVs, MRAPs, APCs etc. MBTs are going to take a much more limited (yet critical) role in the future wars. They are going to be much more about sensors and APSs.

Our planning no longer should be about eastern systems. Our scout-identify-follow-destroy infrastructure (drone warfare) is more than enough for that. When TB3 with its short take off capability enters service, we will have a air to ground attack force that can't be eliminated by bombing airfields. Which means eastern style armies will no longer pose a threat via armor. Think about it; average squad will probably have enough to destroy a soviet tank, or will be able to call fire support.

What happens if we face western armies? We need a large caliber cannon (130 mm) to destroy well armored tanks, good FCS to hit them from far away and sufficinent protection capability to shield the tank from javelin-like missiles or missiles coming from air. Tanks in this instance will be utilized to destroy enemy tanks because they will have similar protection capabilities as well. Western tanks won't be easily destroyed by a MAM bomb or missiles/rockets used by infantry. Good news is they are going to be fewer in numbers. So we can build fewer tanks to counter them.

I might be completely wrong though. This is just what I gathered.
the TB2 already can already take off from roads in fact the Libyans had the TB2s use roads to do their sorties.
 
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Zafer

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Either we build ungodly number of air defense systems and have stockpiles of aa missiles or it wouldn't matter how many tanks we have anyway.
Or we have more and more assault weapons rather then defense.
 

boredaf

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Or we have more and more assault weapons rather then defense.
You talked about "Western armies" which means NATO/US and their war doctrine is to bomb everything to hell and back and then some more just for the fun of it before any ground force even sets foot on the battlefield. There is no realistic version of a war between us and the West that includes thousands of our tanks sweeping across Europe.

Tanks are still important but in any war against Western armies, you need air defense much, much more than you need tanks.
 

Quasar

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Please don't give TSK any ideas. We need to get rid of M48's, not extending their life.

Who am i kidding we will modernize and use M48 till the end of time won't we.
-so true instead of wasting money on M48 My opinion is testing may be a few PARS 4x4 in the role of unmaned reconnaissance & anti tank or most importantly for the near future unmaned Land vehicles which may supplement the role of infantry support for the tanks. Guess in the near future auto loaders will be so common that the 4 th crew of the tank will most probably be responsible from the unmaned Air and Land vehicles for reconnaissance and infantry support roles.

-I belive in the near future it will be wiser for us to use termal identification sings on our current tanks and for Altay as well.

1675866076349.png


1675866111753.png
 
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Combat-Master

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-so true instead of wasting money on M48 My opinion is testing may be a few PARS 4x4 in the role of unmaned reconnaissance & anti tank or most importantly for the near future unmaned Land vehicles which may supplement the role of infantry support for the tanks. Guess in the near future auto loaders will be so common that the 4 th crew of the tank will most probably be responsible from the unmaned Air and Land vehicles for reconnaissance and infantry support roles.

-I belive in the near future it will be wiser for us to use termal identification sings on our current tanks and for Altay as well.

View attachment 53849

View attachment 53850

New tanks will use RF based IFF systems.
 

GoatsMilk

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Zero effect. Just waste of material, money and manpower. In this case.

I think looking at tanks and their potency over the Azerbaijan/Armenia war is not showing the full picture. Azerbaijan in general had a much better army who was able to use modern warfare techniques like the style of drone warfare first displayed in idlib. Armenia was basically a 90ties style soviet army coming up against an army that in some ways had incorporated the most advanced methods of warfare.

A better example is Ukraine/Russia where airspace is contested and not dominated by either side. When this situation occurs it seems like tanks are the most important element on the battlefield in terms of striking and taking positions.

Now if your able to dominate the skies like Turkiye did in Syria against assads/iranian forces, then tanks are just coffins and easy targets. But then again everything is if you dominate the air.
 

Umigami

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The issue with cockerill turret not only about technical design but also cost issue resulted in the development of new turret design by pusenkav View attachment 54029 View attachment 54028

This also one of the stumbling block about further order for Harimau Medium Tank. Though i am would prefer to keep order them while developing newer more capable but more cheaper turret.
Indonesian looking for cheaper alternative turret for Kaplan MT (Harimau in Indonesia)

Document rough translation:
In 2013 a cooperation program was implemented between Pindad and FNSS Turkey in the manufacture of Tiger Tanks, where the cooperation contract only focused on the manufacture of the Tiger Tank hull body without its turret. To complement the Tiger Tank, the Ministry of Defense decided to pick the 3105 turret from CMI Belgium to complement the Tiger Tank weapon system. However, when viewed from the budget aspect, the price of the Ranpur 3105 turret per unit is 63 percent of the total price per unit of the Tiger Tank. Because of this, Pussenkav as the technical advisor for the Indonesian Army's Cavalry Branch conducted research and development of tank turret up to stage IV in order to minimize the cost of procuring the Army's Main Defense Equipment.

Is it possible to miniaturize MZK turret to 4 ton class, or make 105 mm manned version of FNSS Tebber turret?
Is it gonna be more economical?
 

Ecderha

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Seems the aim for new Altay MBT range is set to 5000 hours. Is that adequat or equivalent to 10000km ?
let just try to think here.

Let say we can make example that Tank = Car. Like we going from point A to point B.
Let say speed of tank is 50km/hour


So 5000 hours mean more or less ~250 000km. Engine which have to be durable in normal use
 

dBSPL

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Seems the aim for new Altay MBT range is set to 5000 hours. Is that adequat or equivalent to 10000km ?
Vahap Munyar's column in ekonomim:

On our way back from Hatay, where we traveled with Ahmet Burak Dağlıoğlu, President of the Presidential Investment Office, Arda Ermut, General Manager of the Turkey Wealth Fund, Şerif Tosyalı, Vice President of Osmaniye OSB, Hakan Güldağ and Şeref Oğuz under the guidance of Fuat Tosyalı, Chairman of the Board of Directors of TOSYALI Holding, I brought up BMC.

I asked Fuat Tosyalı:

- How is the situation at BMC, where you bought a 50.1 percent stake in mid-2021?

He answered as follows:

- BMC's turnover doubled in dollar terms.

Continued with exports:

- We are by far the leader in land vehicle exports. Without the old connections, 100 percent of BMC's sales will turn into exports.

He stated that their current exports are around 60 percent of their turnover:

- We do not go to the Turkish Armed Forces (TAF) and make demands such as "Give us this, give us that". We also have our Qatari partners do marketing.

He noted that BMC's 2022 turnover is 500 million dollars:

- 2023 turnover will reach 800 million dollars.

He gave examples of the vehicles produced:

- Tulga is a civilian-looking vehicle with ballistic protection. In fact, an armor capsule is made, then placed on the undercarriage.

He also reported that a pickup model of the Tulga is being developed:

- Thus, it will be a vehicle that can be fitted with a machine gun on the back.

He pointed to the Kirpi as the model they are ambitious about:

- Kirpi has a two-year order. Kirpi also includes an air defense system.

While explaining these, he felt the need to underline the following point:

- We are a vehicle manufacturer. We neither produce nor sell weapons. We have nothing to do with weapons.

He said that they were relieved when they had to abandon the investment that had started in Karasu, Sakarya:

- We are establishing BMC Power in Ankara. We have developed 1200 and 1500 horsepower engines, and the name of the local engine has been determined as "Tuna".

I asked him what stage the Altay Tank was at, and he explained:

- The tank is now the "New Altay"... It has become different from the prototype produced before. It needs to run for 5 thousand hours. Those tests are currently underway.

He shared the targeted timetable:

- The new Altay Tank will be fully showcased by the end of April...

Murat Yalçıntaş, who became BMC CEO after Tosyalı Holding took over 50.1 percent of the shares, gave the following message in our conversation in July 2022:

- We canceled Karasu, but we will produce the military engine in 2023...

Shortly after Murat Yalçıntaş took over as CEO of BMC, he made the following presentation to the company's shareholders:

- The investment started in Karasu is not feasible for BMC. There is no defense industry cluster in the immediate vicinity. The cost of production in Karasu would be high. Let's stop that investment and find a place with a defense industry cluster.

Tosyalı and his Qatari partners heeded Yalçıntaş's warning, halted the investment in Karasu and took action before the Ministry of Industry and Technology for the return of the allocated land.

Our conversation with Fuat Tosyalı on the way back from Hatay reveals that BMC is determinedly continuing its steps towards the production of both engines and the "New Altay Tank"...

(...)


 

Sanchez

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Vahap Munyar's column in ekonomim:
While explaining these, he felt the need to underline the following point:

- We are a vehicle manufacturer. We neither produce nor sell weapons. We have nothing to do with weapons.
This part is weird to me, as the next question is about an MBT. Oshkosh makes heavy duty military trucks, as well as school busses. Heavy duty industry is always intertwined. Same with Otokar that builds armored vehicles and city busses. Why the worry?
 

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