TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Timur]

hey used to have a tendency to explode

yesss it does not like to have dents too.. the next generations will be better we still are talking about an vehicle at 65 tons + batterypack

2.108 kg is the the weight of a tesla s.. thats almost 30 times less of an altay.. you need some more of the batteries just for hybrid too and they need to be attached somehow inside of altay.. lets have a look at hybrid cars and their batteries that will give us a better fair view :


that is the battery of a Audi A8 L weight around 2400kg (took that as an good excample because of power we could look at a toyota prius battery wich is not even half of the size but also has lesser torque)

https://images.caricos.com/a/audi/2018_audi_a8/images/2560x1440/2018_audi_a8_73_2560x1440.jpg

I dont say its impossible but the weight ratio is really different with a car so you dont need such big batteries.. we also talk about scenarios where the tanks stands still and you need more power to get it move on.. thats why I think it may be something where you need more battery capacity specially if you dont drive constant speeds it means you have to drain your battery.. we should not forget that even with diesel engine or else giving gas and bringing your vehicle towards gaining speed consumes more energy thats why I am concerned about a little battery powering a 65 ton vehicle..

and battereis + e motor will add some extra weight wich have to carried around if it is not used.. it needs to be positioned well in altay it could take fire it may need cooling.. in my opinion hybrid is something for the next generations and with the next generation of batteries wich are far lighter have more capacity are more stable and are faster to recharge it will be much easier to achive that these technology is not far away its coming.. but we may also see great development in hydrogen technology wich could be an alternative for diesel engines..

I just think its too early for military mass production maybe for a tachnology demonstrator? advantages of silent vehicles with almost no head signature are really good..

so I think we need a normal diesel engine and a good transmission and for the future we should not forget about Hydrogen and Batteries electric powered and hybrid powered vehicles could be awsome to have a tank with 2500 hp or more

 

[Saithan]

I’m just glad we’ve got an engine to work with. Now we just need to focus on making it viable and durable.

 

[Huelague]

Germans doesn’t invest much in new electric battery technology because they know, hydrogen power is the future.

 

[Yasar_TR]

yesss it does not like to have dents too.. the next generations will be better we still are talking about an vehicle at 65 tons + batterypack

2.108 kg is the the weight of a tesla s.. thats almost 30 times less of an altay.. you need some more of the batteries just for hybrid too and they need to be attached somehow inside of altay.. lets have a look at hybrid cars and their batteries that will give us a better fair view :


that is the battery of a Audi A8 L weight around 2400kg (took that as an good excample because of power we could look at a toyota prius battery wich is not even half of the size but also has lesser torque)

https://images.caricos.com/a/audi/2018_audi_a8/images/2560x1440/2018_audi_a8_73_2560x1440.jpg

I dont say its impossible but the weight ratio is really different with a car so you dont need such big batteries.. we also talk about scenarios where the tanks stands still and you need more power to get it move on.. thats why I think it may be something where you need more battery capacity specially if you dont drive constant speeds it means you have to drain your battery.. we should not forget that even with diesel engine or else giving gas and bringing your vehicle towards gaining speed consumes more energy thats why I am concerned about a little battery powering a 65 ton vehicle..

and battereis + e motor will add some extra weight wich have to carried around if it is not used.. it needs to be positioned well in altay it could take fire it may need cooling.. in my opinion hybrid is something for the next generations and with the next generation of batteries wich are far lighter have more capacity are more stable and are faster to recharge it will be much easier to achive that these technology is not far away its coming.. but we may also see great development in hydrogen technology wich could be an alternative for diesel engines..

I just think its too early for military mass production maybe for a tachnology demonstrator? advantages of silent vehicles with almost no head signature are really good..

so I think we need a normal diesel engine and a good transmission and for the future we should not forget about Hydrogen and Batteries electric powered and hybrid powered vehicles could be awsome to have a tank with 2500 hp or more

Your mindset is still stuck on an all electric car. I gave Tesla S as an example of HP power. This car is light does 0 to 100kph in less than 3 seconds.
We are talking about a HYBRID tank engine. All of the electricity is coming from a diesel engine; either by charging the batteries or by providing electrical power directly to the wheels. Look at the HSL700 engine. An electrodiesel engine is charging batteries together developing 940 HP power to pull 68 ton locomotive and all the rest of the carriages behind it and achieve 80km/h speed.
Aselsan and Tulomsas have made this engine and locomotive. The tech is here in our hands.
It is easy to oppose ideas than being constructive. As they say:
IF THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY.

13.5 ton m113 in hybrid guise is a start.

MKEK'ten insansız, hibrit zırhlı muharebe araç sürprizi

Makina ve Kimya Endüstrisi Kurumu, Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri envanterinde yer alan paletli zırhlı araçların modernizasyonu için hibrit, insansız ve silah sistemi içeren çözüm geliştirdi. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Yasar_TR]

Germans doesn’t invest much in new electric battery technology because they know, hydrogen power is the future.

If you check how a hydrogen fuel cell operates you will find that , when hydrogen is burnt with oxygen the energy obtained is used to charge batteries that drive an electric motor.

 

[Zafer]

Tinkerer's mind

A transmission-less smaller torque output from the diesel engine mixes with the electric motor output to make a combined output of full diesel and full battery electric power for the duration that the batteries can last. This method is in addition to generator plus battery electric combo operation. The advantage here is to not suffer the conversion losses from fuel to electric that would otherwise occur at all times.

With his method even a smaller diesel engine can be sufficient for the top speed of the tank as long as the battery power lasts. Even the 1000 hp Utku engine may have a good chance to shine.

There is a smaller Turkish company that made a 350hp electric motor complete with its controller.

 

[ekemenirtu]

Is this project still in limbo due to a lack of suitable engine and transmission?

 

[Ryder]

Is this project still in limbo due to a lack of suitable engine and transmission?

Yes unfortunately. Otokar also deserve the blame for being naive idiots and relying on the Germans.

 

[ekemenirtu]

Where exactly is the difficulty?

In designing an internal combustion engine? In designing vehicle transmission systems?

In manufacturing internal combustion engines? In manufacturing vehicle transmission systems?

Internal combustion engines and transmissions are not new technologies by any means. Lots of industrialized countries have mastered them. Why is the Turkish industry experiencing such difficulties?

Moreover, the common stereotype is that East Asians excel in electronics including IT hardware whereas Europeans (including descendants) excel in mechanical engineering (including aerospace engineering).

I am baffled that the Turkish industry has not yet resolved this issue.

 

[Ryder]

Where exactly is the difficulty?

In designing an internal combustion engine? In designing vehicle transmission systems?

In manufacturing internal combustion engines? In manufacturing vehicle transmission systems?

Internal combustion engines and transmissions are not new technologies by any means. Lots of industrialized countries have mastered them. Why is the Turkish industry experiencing such difficulties?

Moreover, the common stereotype is that East Asians excel in electronics including IT hardware whereas Europeans (including descendants) excel in mechanical engineering (including aerospace engineering).

I am baffled that the Turkish industry has not yet resolved this issue.

Tank engines are different to be honest compared to car engines. People who build a domestic tank like israel, india and south korea use german engines and transmissions.

Takes a lot of resources and testing to get right also decades.

 

[ekemenirtu]

Tank engines are different to be honest compared to car engines. People who build a domestic tank like israel, india and south korea use german engines and transmissions.

Takes a lot of resources and testing to get right also decades.

Israel/Zionist regime, depending on how you call it, is extremely tiny and not expected to be able to sustain much industrial or economic activity within its tiny shores with its tiny population. Sourcing foreign and expensive components for their main battle tanks seems to be quite reasonable and is not an unexpected development.

I would argue that if they were to develop submarines or destroyers, they would source the propulsion systems from abroad, as they would if they were to develop fighter aircraft or commercial aircraft. I believe their drones, or UAVs, also use foreign sourced engines.

India, while huge in size is still very far from reaching the Western standards of development. Its development indicators more closely mirror African, rather than European, countries - with all due respect to the African, Indian and European readers.

Korea - as I have explained before - is East Asian, and is stereotyped as excellent with IT hardware and electronics but not so good in mechanical engineering (including aerospace engineering).

If we look at Europeans (or descendants), many have developed main battle tanks and the associated propulsion systems. The most popularly used examples may be found in Germany but aside from Germany, other countries such as France, USA, Italy, Ukraine and Russia have developed main battle tanks and associated propulsion systems.

Some countries are renowned for their superior mechanical engineering industries. Therefore, the propulsion systems they churn out are expected to be equally good. Other countries may not churn out equally desirable engines and transmission systems. However, so long as they strike a balance between cost and performance, they may be used in ample numbers by the customers, too.

The Turkish case still continues to puzzle me.

 

[Raptor]

Tank engines are different to be honest compared to car engines. People who build a domestic tank like israel, india and south korea use german engines and transmissions.

Takes a lot of resources and testing to get right also decades.

CVRDE 1500 HP Engine - Alpha Defense

The behemoth of all diesel engines designed and developed in India is now ready. The Prototype is tested for full power using the turbocharger made by GTRE. The engine is probably one of the most important components of any moving vehicle including the main battle tanks (MBT). These powerplants...

alphadefense.in

India did make its engine

 

[ekemenirtu]

CVRDE 1500 HP Engine - Alpha Defense

The behemoth of all diesel engines designed and developed in India is now ready. The Prototype is tested for full power using the turbocharger made by GTRE. The engine is probably one of the most important components of any moving vehicle including the main battle tanks (MBT). These powerplants...

alphadefense.in

India did make its engine

Still at a prototype stage, according to that report.

 

[AzeriTank]

Israel/Zionist regime, depending on how you call it, is extremely tiny and not expected to be able to sustain much industrial or economic activity within its tiny shores with its tiny population. Sourcing foreign and expensive components for their main battle tanks seems to be quite reasonable and is not an unexpected development.

I would argue that if they were to develop submarines or destroyers, they would source the propulsion systems from abroad, as they would if they were to develop fighter aircraft or commercial aircraft. I believe their drones, or UAVs, also use foreign sourced engines.

India, while huge in size is still very far from reaching the Western standards of development. Its development indicators more closely mirror African, rather than European, countries - with all due respect to the African, Indian and European readers.

Korea - as I have explained before - is East Asian, and is stereotyped as excellent with IT hardware and electronics but not so good in mechanical engineering (including aerospace engineering).

If we look at Europeans (or descendants), many have developed main battle tanks and the associated propulsion systems. The most popularly used examples may be found in Germany but aside from Germany, other countries such as France, USA, Italy, Ukraine and Russia have developed main battle tanks and associated propulsion systems.

Some countries are renowned for their superior mechanical engineering industries. Therefore, the propulsion systems they churn out are expected to be equally good. Other countries may not churn out equally desirable engines and transmission systems. However, so long as they strike a balance between cost and performance, they may be used in ample numbers by the customers, too.

The Turkish case still continues to puzzle me.

French engine is so bad that UAE took MTU engine for their Leclerc tank.
Ukraine and Russia, non has 1500hp engine, thats why they dont use much protection. also the size of engine is bigger to German ones.
USA use jet engine that use 4 times more fuel, and high heat signature.
only Germany developed 1500hp engine with transmission in the world so far with high reliability...
But i think, as Turkey is going to test its 1000hp engine with Transmission and 1500hp engine this year, it will be soled after loosing years thanks to Germans...
i think batteries might not be suitable with tanks as after every shoot it shakes a lot... also putting them under also means it will be damaged after any mine explosion. Also hybrid is the way to go, it has high tork from 0 that super important for tanks.. also fuel economy and silent operations with batteries only in case of need...

 

[Zafer]

Lithium batteries have many varieties. Lithium polymer is ligh weight but prone to overheat. Li Ion is a bit less powerful but still susceptible to overheat. Recently there is Lithium Titanate batteries which is less power dense but sports a very long cycle life and more importantly does not overheat. You can even drill a hole in it and it won't bother. I hear that this type maybe produced by Aspilsan.

 

[Orkunhun]

By no means it is impossible to design and produce 1500-1800HP range tank engine + differential compact and reliable enough to compare with German MTU diesel engine and ZF transmission of today.

The biggest dilemma is necessary money and time.

Even if we have enough money, the question remains if we have enough time to reach that level of accumulated knowledge of 120 years in order to fulfill the requirements of the ALTAY project before the ALTAY concept itself becomes obsolete.

Suppose that we produce BATU and suitable transmission, what will be the cost? Are we going to be able to compete in the international market to sell our products in order to compensate the cost?

Till we produce such a duo with described specifications the technology will evolve in all fields, internal combustion, battery technology, condensator technology, electric motor technology, hydrogen technology and also material technology which may allow to produce lighter armour plates. No one will say "let us wait for Turks to develope their diesel engine and transmission".

Therefore, I think it will be wiser to invest more into newer technologies in which we might have more chance to compete. One good example is our UAV technology. While we are now competitive in this field in no means we have any competitiveness in the field of manned aircrafts.

I wish we can produce an unmanned hybrid tank with less weight and armour but equal fire power and agility before anyone else.

 

[Zafer]

We don't worry about cost. We need to develop our industrial prowess. As long as we do development with national resources the money will stay in the country and cost will not really matter. Therefore we can try any combination of anything to make successful products. Money spent in those areas are like the money spend by NASA in space sciences, they reaped the benefits in other industries than space alone. So will we.

 

[Orkunhun]

We don't worry about cost. We need to develop our industrial prowess. As long as we do development with national resources the money will stay in the country and cost will not really matter. Therefore we can try any combination of anything to make successful products. Money spent in those areas are like the money spend by NASA in space sciences, they reaped the benefits in other industries than space alone. So will we.

Of course, but why not invest MORE in newer technologies in which we may have the chance not only to reach but even to lead the way on equal foot than trying to reach their level in already mature old technology.

 

[Tornadoss]

Yes unfortunately. Otokar also deserve the blame for being naive idiots and relying on the Germans.

Was it up to Otokar to choose the engine and transmission for Altay. I would blame who prepared the project description(SSB?). Engine development project should be in parallel with Altay project.

 

[Ryder]

Was it up to Otokar to choose the engine and transmission for Altay. I would blame who prepared the project description(SSB?). Engine development project should be in parallel with Altay project.

Otokar should have developed one also look for alternatives.

I remember reading on PDF in Turkish defence forum section that the Ukrainian engine and transmission was nearly going to be chosen to power future turkish tanks until the Turkish armed forces were not happy as they were sluggish not fast enough compared to German ones. Hence why German ones were accepted.

I hope people correct me on this one whether its true or false.