TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Masesebe]

Why we talking same thing over and over again.

It is happend in the Best way that even ppl of Turkiye and around the world understand that They (psuedo allies) -> Germany, Austria had/have plan to wait Turkiye to mature Altay tank project and When it become READY for Production then Baaaaaaaaaaam. Embargo on all fronts

Germany applied embargo on Engines.
Austrian government blocked AVL Tumosan regarding the development of local engine.

It is simple YOU CAN'T start production of Altay tank when There are not ENGINES.

250 enginge which we talking about are not in Turkiye soil.
It was only PAPER deal!
So Contract was Blocked/Embaroged by Germany
Turkiye officals Try to discuss the issue/matter couple of time with Merkel-> result is that She said it is not up to her -> which was lie it mean to divert direction of talking to other parties so at end Psuedo Allies achive the goal -> Stop Turkiye from building Tanks

But now in present it is show that we have matured our Local engine. I really happy that Turkiye did't stop and became independet from psudo allies with OWN platforms

Well said

 

[Anmdt]

There are not ENGINES.

There are engines in the stock, Ismail Demir himself told the LRIP production was going to start with the engines in stock however since then we haven't heard anything regarding to this production. (some rumors 10, some 20)

Good luck in even denying SSB President:

Başkan DEMİR: Eldeki motorlar ile ALTAY üretimine başlanacak | SavunmaSanayiST

T.C. Cumhurbaşkanlığı Savunma Sanayii Başkanı Prof. Dr. İsmail DEMİR, ALTAY Tankı'nın son durumuna ilişkin kritik açıklamalarda bulundu.

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[Ecderha]

There are engines in the stock, Ismail Demir himself told the LRIP production was going to start with the engines in stock however since then we haven't heard anything regarding to this production. (some rumors 10, some 20)

Good luck in even denying SSB President:

Başkan DEMİR: Eldeki motorlar ile ALTAY üretimine başlanacak | SavunmaSanayiST

T.C. Cumhurbaşkanlığı Savunma Sanayii Başkanı Prof. Dr. İsmail DEMİR, ALTAY Tankı'nın son durumuna ilişkin kritik açıklamalarda bulundu.

www.savunmasanayist.com

I remember on media when Ismail Demir told himself about 4-5 engines. BUUUUUUUUUUt those engine was build and delivered by Germany to Turkiye for Testing.
They are Germany and Turkiye property -> It mean that if Turkiye follow International law/contracts then Turkiye Can't use them on Altay untill Germany dos NOT allow that.


Ismail Demir said on media that thing because there were alternative engine for testing and It fail to achieve what Turkiye want it from that engine.
At end you can NOT start production of Altay because you have 4,5 engines or LIES / Rumors for 10 engine

 

[Abdelaziz]

There are engines in the stock, Ismail Demir himself told the LRIP production was going to start with the engines in stock however since then we haven't heard anything regarding to this production. (some rumors 10, some 20)

Good luck in even denying SSB President:

Başkan DEMİR: Eldeki motorlar ile ALTAY üretimine başlanacak | SavunmaSanayiST

T.C. Cumhurbaşkanlığı Savunma Sanayii Başkanı Prof. Dr. İsmail DEMİR, ALTAY Tankı'nın son durumuna ilişkin kritik açıklamalarda bulundu.

www.savunmasanayist.com

What is the point with making production line and huge expenses for 10-20 tank !!!

 

[Anmdt]

I remember on media when Ismail Demir told himself about 4-5 engines. BUUUUUUUUUUt those engine was build and delivered by Germany to Turkiye for Testing.
They are Germany and Turkiye property -> It mean that if Turkiye follow International law/contracts then Turkiye Can't use them on Altay untill Germany dos NOT allow that.


Ismail Demir said on media that thing because there were alternative engine for testing and It fail to achieve what Turkiye want it from that engine.
At end you can NOT start production of Altay because you have 4,5 or LIES / Rumors for 10

Don't bend the truth: he explicitly says " we will start LRIP with he engines available in stock" until domestic solution arrives the production will start and continue with these.
Been longer than a year and no sound from this at all.

Buna ilave olarak, elimizde aslında az sayıda da olsa yedek motorlar var. Bunlarla başlayarak, belirli bir tank üretimi sürecine gireceğiz. Diğer yerli çözüm devreye girene kadar da bunlar üretilmiş olacak.” açıklamalarında bulundu.

 

[Combat-Master]

I told you. By the end of 2016, the tank was %100 ready for serial production. There was no German embargo at that time. 50-100 MTU powerpack could have been acquired in a year or two. After that embargo would have been meaningless and we would have been in possession of enough tanks to work on the national engine and the next version of Altay.

The tank may have been ready, but there were no facilities capable of producing the tank en-masse, for facilities to be constructed and put into service it would have taken 2 extra years (As disclosed by Otokar). No one is going to order 50-100 Powerpacks when you don't have the capability to produce the tanks even at LRIP.

What happened is not ideal, however, they did not idly sit on their hands. Altay has gained more capabilities and is improved considerably since Otokar completed acceptance tests.

 

[Anmdt]

What is the point with making production line and huge expenses for 10-20 tank !!!

LRIP - Low rate inital production.

 

[Bogeyman]

There are engines in the stock, Ismail Demir himself told the LRIP production was going to start with the engines in stock however since then we haven't heard anything regarding to this production. (some rumors 10, some 20)

Good luck in even denying SSB President:

Başkan DEMİR: Eldeki motorlar ile ALTAY üretimine başlanacak | SavunmaSanayiST

T.C. Cumhurbaşkanlığı Savunma Sanayii Başkanı Prof. Dr. İsmail DEMİR, ALTAY Tankı'nın son durumuna ilişkin kritik açıklamalarda bulundu.

www.savunmasanayist.com

You cannot do mass production with 30-40 engine. For mass production, you must have stock loaded in your hand. If your stock is not enough then you can't store the mass production line 3-4 years without producing anything. The cost of care will your headache.

 

[Ecderha]

Don't bend the truth: he explicitly says " we will start LRIP with he engines available in stock" until domestic solution arrives the production will start and continue with these.
Been longer than a year and no sound from this at all.

I am not bend anything.
I will say it other way If ENGINES are my Development and I am the owner of That Product. And YOU are Want to buy that product from ME.
We make Contact according Inernatial LAW.
There are clauses in contract that I CAN STOP ALLOWING YOU to USE the PRODUCT on later Stages.<-That HAPPEND

So I provide couple of engines/products for YOU on the begining, BUT on later stage I SAY that YOU CAN'T USE THEM ANYMORE.

SO 4, 5 10 engines "we will start LRIP with he engines available in stock" DOES NOT MATTER they are not YOUR YET do decide.
Unless you Broke "Contact according Inernatial LAW" we both signed. Then there will be consequence for YOU

 

[Anmdt]

I am not bend anything.
I will say it other way If ENGINES are my Development and I am the owner of That Product. And YOU are Want to buy that product from ME.
We make Contact according Inernatial LAW.
There are clauses in contract that I CAN STOP ALLOWING YOU to USE the PRODUCT on later Stages.<-That HAPPEND

So I provide couple of engines/products for YOU on the begining, BUT on later stage I SAY that YOU CAN'T USE THEM ANYMORE.

SO 4, 5 10 engines "we will start LRIP with he engines available in stock" DOES NOT MATTER they are not YOUR YET do decide.
Unless you Broke "Contact according Inernatial LAW" we both signed. Then there will be consequence for YOU

Ok, just asking is it too hard to accept that BMC can not even start the LRIP because lacking the necessary skills?

The engines can be easily used on LRIP since those are purchased, however it is supplier's option to not provide any assistance in integration.
"Contract", hmm remembering too well TAF has ignored all contracts and international deals and transferred Bayraktar TB2 from TAF's inventory directly to the Azerbaijan, looks like when it is matter of our national security or soldiers' life we can not bend those contracts. But we can do for anybody else.

 

[Philips]

Didn't Erdogan say that they are going to start production of the Altay in 2023? By that time the BATU powerpack is in the latest stage of testing and the initial Altay's can be produced with the MTU powerpacks in stock and the rest with the BATU when it hits serial production by late 2023 or early 2024.

 

[Ecderha]

Ok, just asking is it too hard to accept that BMC can not even start the LRIP because lacking the necessary skills?

The engines can be easily used on LRIP since those are purchased, however it is supplier's option to not provide any assistance in integration.
"Contract", hmm remembering too well TAF has ignored all contracts and international deals and transferred Bayraktar TB2 from TAF's inventory directly to the Azerbaijan, looks like when it is matter of our national security or soldiers' life we can not bend those contracts. But we can do for anybody else.

Did I said anything about lacking the necessary skills?
Did I said anything about transferred Bayraktar TB2?

Stop fabricating and leading US to other directions which you Mind create or link to.

If you can't interpretate what I said then I can't explain to you other way.

Simple "It is not you product. Period"

 

[Abdelaziz]

LRIP - Low rate inital production.

This is not LRIP ..you dont understand this term well ..their is no secured supplies to move to FRP after it ... Your point is meaningless

 

[Anmdt]

This is not LRIP ..you dont understand this term well ..their is no secured supplies to move to FRP after it ... Your point is meaningless

Definition of LRIP :

Low rate initial production (LRIP) is a term commonly used in military weapon projects/programs to designate the phase of initial, small-quantity production. The prospective first buyer and operator (i.e., a country's defense authorities and the relevant military units) gets to thoroughly test the weapons system over some protracted amount of time—in order to gain a reasonable degree of confidence as to whether the system actually performs to the agreed-upon requirements before contracts for mass production are signed

 

[Anmdt]

Did I said anything about lacking the necessary skills?
Did I said anything about transferred Bayraktar TB2?

Stop fabricating and leading US to other directions which you Mind create or link to.

If you can't interpretate what I said then I can't explain to you other way.

Simple "It is not you product. Period"

TB2 is for example of bending and disobeying contracts, we do it when necessary.
lacking necessary skills is a truth which you avoid from accepting.
I am not fabricating anything , how long has it been since the project's prototype stage is completed, how long has it been since it is awarded to BMC and how many times they have declared schedules with T0+ bla bla and has never been accomplished? It is all transparent available out there in media.

 

[Ryder]

TB2 is for example of bending and disobeying contracts, we do it when necessary.
lacking necessary skills is a truth which you avoid from accepting.
I am not fabricating anything , how long has it been since the project's prototype stage is completed, how long has it been since it is awarded to BMC and how many times they have declared schedules with T0+ bla bla and has never been accomplished? It is all transparent available out there in media.

Well to help our Azerbaijani brothers we bent the contracts.

Tough times means extreme measures. To fight armenian terrorism we broke the contract.

Contracts and rules are meant to be broken. Sometimes you got to play the game of backstabbing in a world where people constantly backstab us.

 

[Bogeyman]

Didn't Erdogan say that they are going to start production of the Altay in 2023? By that time the BATU powerpack is in the latest stage of testing and the initial Altay's can be produced with the MTU powerpacks in stock and the rest with the BATU when it hits serial production by late 2023 or early 2024.

The BATU project is the only example of its kind with design. Therefore, the Altay must be designed again due to the settlement of the engine & integration! All tests have to be done again!

 

[Inspector_spacetime]

TB2 is for example of bending and disobeying contracts, we do it when necessary.
lacking necessary skills is a truth which you avoid from accepting.
I am not fabricating anything , how long has it been since the project's prototype stage is completed, how long has it been since it is awarded to BMC and how many times they have declared schedules with T0+ bla bla and has never been accomplished? It is all transparent available out there in media.

Having delays in a project does not mean that skills necessary are missing. The issue's regarding all the delays on the tank has been discussed for pages and pages on both this forum as well as back on PKD, as well as sources available from various media. It is all out there and available to us. And none of the information suggests that BMC lacks the competence or skills of producing the tank. Especially considering that it is SSB that owns all the rights to Altay, that means all the know-how belongs to SSB. We also know that the talent that worked on Altay's R&D transferred from Otokar to BMC after the tender. But despite all this evidence, claiming that BMC has no talent, skills or competetence shows that this notion isn't based on anything tangible.

It's pretty clear the same problems would've occured if FNSS or Otokar had gotten the serial production. The various delays and changing of schedules have all been due to the procurement of power pack. We even saw news of potentially acquiring Korean power pack and we get updates regarding this issue, this all is evidence that those involved with the Altay project are hard at work behind the scenes. We all know the issue's surrounding this, so throwing shade at BMC or SSB and saying they are incompetent, etc. is not fair to any of them. Especially to SSB as it has a great track record of how to handle military industry projects, and its competence is why our defence industry has improved so much and praised by even foreign media.

 

[Anmdt]

that means all the know-how belongs to SSB

Well that is where you are wrong, Otokar-SSB had only signed to deliver technical packages and Otokar has not shared all know-how because they haven't been had to, according to the agreement. In simple words, Otokar has only shared some Auto-CAD drawings but not the detailed production plans which shows how the assembly is going to be made, they have given the plans but not the schemes.

Having delays in a project does not mean that skills necessary are missing. The issue's regarding all the delays on the tank has been discussed for pages and pages on both this forum as well as back on PKD, as well as sources available from various media. It is all out there and available to us. And none of the information suggests that BMC lacks the competence or skills of producing the tank

If BMC doesn't lack any skills then why did the government needed to privatize Tank-Palet to BMC especially after BMC had failed to collect all experts from some other firms who is known to work in the Tank project. If BMC had necessary skills would they ever need Tank-Palet, a factory which is already known to perform well in the Tank business.

It's pretty clear the same problems would've occured if FNSS or Otokar had gotten the serial production. The various delays and changing of schedules have all been due to the procurement of power pack. We even saw news of potentially acquiring Korean power pack and we get updates regarding this issue, this all is evidence that those involved with the Altay project are hard at work behind the scenes. We all know the issue's surrounding this, so throwing shade at BMC or SSB and saying they are incompetent, etc. is not fair to any of them. Especially to SSB as it has a great track record of how to handle military industry projects, and its competence is why our defence industry has improved so much and praised by even foreign media.

Telling once more again. Ismail Demir himself told production would have start with the available engines. Obviously there is sufficient amount of the engines worth production to start. Yet, however you are claiming with fancy words that there are no engines. SSB President himself tells this: " Low-rate production will start with available foreign engines which is in the stock, and in mass production will be replaced with domestic or the other-two foreign engine available to us" . After 1 year and more still there is no sound regarding to this low-rate production. Moreover, BMC being failed in Leo upgrade project, failing to make a new prototype for Altay to work on it has sufficient proof on how incompetent they are.

So far the projects which kept delaying thanks to BMC:
Altay (still counting the years)
Leo upgrade (taken away from them)
IFV (on hold for BMC to complete the tests, we are all sure just after that the tender will commence)
Turbofan (had been stalled nearly for 6 months to 1 years because of BMC's aggressive stance)

There are many proofs for people to see how incompetent BMC in tank business is and lacks necessary skills to let alone start a mass production, even to make one prototype-like product, even to upgrade an existing Tank.

 

[Inspector_spacetime]

Well that is where you are wrong, Otokar-SSB had only signed to deliver technical packages and Otokar has not shared all know-how because they haven't been had to, according to the agreement. In simple words, Otokar has only shared some Auto-CAD drawings but not the detailed production plans which shows how the assembly is going to be made, they have given the plans but not the schemes.

Do you have a source for this?

If BMC doesn't lack any skills then why did the government needed to privatize Tank-Palet to BMC especially after BMC had failed to collect all experts from some other firms who is known to work in the Tank project. If BMC had necessary skills would they ever need Tank-Palet, a factory which is already known to perform well in the Tank business.

Tank palet was because TSK was in urgent need of the Altay tanks. So tank palet came into play in order to speed up the process according to Ethem Sancak.

Telling once more again. Ismail Demir himself told production would have start with the available engines. Obviously there is sufficient amount of the engines worth production to start. Yet, however you are claiming with fancy words that there are no engines.

Where did I claim that there were no engines? I said that there were engine/power pack issue's, but never said that there were no engine's in inventory.
The source you provided in one of your previoius posts showed that Ismail Demir said that they had a few engine's in the inventory and that they would start the production with those, but the source didn't say how many engine's there were.

According to this source, Turkey is looking to buy Korean engine's for Altay:

Altay tankı: Defense News, Türkiye'nin motor üretimi için Güney Kore ile anlaştığını iddia etti - BBC News Türkçe

ABD merkezli haber kuruluşu Defense News, Türkiye'nin zırhlı araç üreticisi BMC'nin, Almanya'nın uyguladığı ambargo nedeniyle Altay tankının üretiminde yaşanan aksaklığı aşmak için Güney Koreli iki şirketle anlaştığını bildirdi.

www.bbc.com

This suggests that the engine's in invetory isn't enough to get started with the serial production of Altay and therefor they are looking to buy powerpacks from Korea. Or they are looking to replenish their engine inventory from Korea. It is probably the latter going by the source in the next paragraph.

Accroding to this source, the production of Altays have started and the first Altay will be delivered in 2023:

ALTAY Tank Will Be Delivered to TAF at the Beginning of 2023

ALTAY Tank Will Be Delivered to Turkish Armed Forces at the Beginning of 2023 - Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan delivered a speech at the Arifiye 1st Main Maintenance Factory Directorate in Sakarya with the Altay Main Battle Tank.

www.raillynews.com

From source: "President of the Presidency of the Republic of Turkey Prof. Dr. İsmail Demir, in the interview he gave to M5 Magazine, emphasized that the production of 6 Altay tanks with pre-supplied engines was started, and that the production of the Altay main battle tank started. “We can't call it 6 per unit because there is no such thing as you will put all the spare engines in the tank, but it can be 4 or 5, something like that has been started. It may be asked why such a thing was not started earlier. If you are going to start to establish a production facility now, you have to determine a process so that I produced 5 units after that, I waited for 3 years.” had made statements."

So according to Ismail Demir, the production of Atlay has started and the first 5 Altay wil have a foreign engine (probably MTU because Ismail Demir said 'pre-supplied engine's), and hopefully by the time these roll out, Batu engine's will be ready for mass production. Maybe they will import more engine's from Korea depending on how Batu's development and qualification tests go. Ismail Demir did say that have B and C plans in play regarding this issue.

Edit: Batu will be integrated to Altay in 2024 according to Mesude Kilinc head of engine development at SSB:

BATU Power Group to be Integrated into the Altay Tank in 2024

BATU Power Group to be Integrated into Altay Tank in 2024 - The integration and acceptance of BATU Power Group on the Altay main battle tank is targeted to be completed by 2024 SSB Engine and Powertrain

en.rayhaber.com

Telling once more again. Ismail Demir himself told production would have start with the available engines. Obviously there is sufficient amount of the engines worth production to start. Yet, however you are claiming with fancy words that there are no engines. SSB President himself tells this: " Low-rate production will start with available foreign engines which is in the stock, and in mass production will be replaced with domestic or the other-two foreign engine available to us" . After 1 year and more still there is no sound regarding to this low-rate production. Moreover, BMC being failed in Leo upgrade project, failing to make a new prototype for Altay to work on it has sufficient proof on how incompetent they are.

So far the projects which kept delaying thanks to BMC:
Altay (still counting the years)
Leo upgrade (taken away from them)
IFV (on hold for BMC to complete the tests, we are all sure just after that the tender will commence)
Turbofan (had been stalled nearly for 6 months to 1 years because of BMC's aggressive stance)

There are many proofs for people to see how incompetent BMC in tank business is and lacks necessary skills to let alone start a mass production, even to make one prototype-like product, even to upgrade an existing Tank.

Judging from this paragraph, it seems like you have a personal grudge against BMC rather than anything else. Altay delay it is pretty clear that it is because of the powerpack, the same or similar problems would've occured for Otokar or FNSS as well.
Quote from source: "While a limited production of Altay AMT was planned in 2021, uncertainties regarding full-scale mass production continued due to the power group."

ALTAY Tank Will Be Delivered to TAF at the Beginning of 2023

ALTAY Tank Will Be Delivered to Turkish Armed Forces at the Beginning of 2023 - Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan delivered a speech at the Arifiye 1st Main Maintenance Factory Directorate in Sakarya with the Altay Main Battle Tank.

www.raillynews.com

Leo upgrade (first 40) is going to be done by Roketsan/Aselsan. For the rest of the Leo's, SSB has opened a tender in which FNSS and BMC are competing for (Roketsan and Aselsan will be guaranteed subcontracters). BMC's solution is a Leo with Altay turret.
Soure: https://www.savunmasanayist.com/leopard-2a4-modernizasyonu-yeni-gelismeler/

What you said about IFV's are speculation. Maybe you are right, but I highly doubt that because it is an argument that is being repeated many times but motivated by political stances (it is used to systematically defame political opponents and BMC becomes the victim in all of this). On top of that SSB's track record speaks for itself. If TSK has needs than SSB wouldn't wait for a second just to give an advantage to a certain company. Especially considering that FNSS, Otokar and BMC are all of strategic value for the country.

Turbofan? You mean TRMotor?
The point of contention regarding Rolls Royce in this project, is the rights of the engine. Turkey wants to be able to export these engine's to whichever country they want without restrictions, but England doesn't feel the same way. If TAEC (Rolls/Kale JV) wasn't cancelled went on according to schedule, a working prototype of the engine would have been ready in 2023. But in that case, there would've been issue's regarding exports.

You are saying that there is so much proof to prove BMC's incompetence, which is very strange. Especially since the evindence suggests that BMC is competent. The engine developments, Leo upgrade with Altay turret, their IFV prototype, the ongoing improvements and new designs on their armored vehicles. And above all, SSB's faith in the competence of BMC. Would I say BMC is the best? No, I would say FNSS is the best, but BMC is very much competent with regard to the industry it is operating in.