TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Ryder]

Military Game Fan Leaks Classified Docs To Win Forum Argument

A War Thunder player caused a ruckus by posting classified tank data on the game's message boards

www.google.com

Nothing to do with the Altay.

But what a fcking idiot. The same question should be asked here too how protected is Turkish classified files especially weapons.

When some people can easily leak out files. This classified file was leaked for a videogame by a tank operator who was playing war thunder and believed the challenger tank was portrayed inaccurate.

There needs to be proper discipline and punishments too. Now the guy who leaked it may now cop prison sentences all for a stupid game.

 

[Stuka]

I was looking through OTOKARs 2015 Activity Report:

Altay Tank Project
The Altay main battle tank project, whose contract was signed in 2008, continues accordingly.
In the final acceptance and qualification tests, The production of PV1 and PV2 prototypes to be used will be completed in 2014.
The third and final phase of the project, "Prototype Development and System Qualification, which is one of the most important processes within the scope of "Qualification"
The tests have been started as of April 2015, and the relevant Production of 250 tanks and their Integrated Logistic Support bid file for the Altay Project Term II
Mass Production Project Presented to SSM on 18.01.2016

What a missed opportunity.

 

[TheInsider]

I told you. By the end of 2016, the tank was %100 ready for serial production. There was no German embargo at that time. 50-100 MTU powerpack could have been acquired in a year or two. After that embargo would have been meaningless and we would have been in possession of enough tanks to work on the national engine and the next version of Altay.

 

[Ryder]

I told you. By the end of 2016, the tank was %100 ready for serial production. There was no German embargo at that time. 50-100 MTU powerpack could have been acquired in a year or two. After that embargo would have been meaningless and we would have been in possession of enough tanks to work on the national engine and the next version of Altay.

Wow!!

I feel like banging my head on the wall while at the same time Turkish tankers are still riding the piece of shit M48s and M60s.

If they are so much about cost cutting than give us swords to fight.

Ridiculous how our neighbours have better tanks than us.

 

[Zafer]

If we had German engines we would have put off engine development.
You need to the push off urgency to move forward.
Things are happening in a favorable way.

 

[Era_shield]

If we had German engines we would have put off engine development.
You need to the push off urgency to move forward.
Things are happening in a favorable way.

Yup, short term pain but long term much bigger rewards. As far as I can see, every weapons embargo Turkey has received has been a huge blessing in disguise. It's just unfortunate that we need other countries to embargo us before we take these steps.

 

[Spook]

Yup, short term pain but long term much bigger rewards. As far as I can see, every weapons embargo Turkey has received has been a huge blessing in disguise. It's just unfortunate that we need other countries to embargo us before we take these steps.

One of the best outcome under the conditions would have been prioritizing national engine development starting 2015-16. 2015 contract shouldn't have been given to Albayrak. SSB should had just picked or created a company and invested in engine infrastructure as soon as possible which ended up happening later. Altay T0, at least 40 initial tank lot should have been built with German engines starting 2016 until the predictable embargo happened. This would had allowed 40-50+ Altay to enter service as soon as possible, which in turn could have allowed for well needed training and real feedback from the field. This 5+ years while engine development wait would have been whole a lot for productive development of Altay. Altay wouldn't had the same status today. If it was used in Syria, we would be promoting right now about how it is one very few modern MBT used in, designed for real battlefield conditions. Would had given us leverage when it comes to exporting. Biggest issue to me is very questionable planning.

 

[Zafer]

One of the best outcome under the conditions would have been prioritizing national engine development starting 2015-16. 2015 contract shouldn't have been given to Albayrak. SSB should had just picked or created a company and invested in engine infrastructure as soon as possible which ended up happening later. Altay T0, at least 40 initial tank lot should have been built with German engines starting 2016 until the predictable embargo happened. This would had allowed 40-50+ Altay to enter service as soon as possible, which in turn could have allowed for well needed training and real feedback from the field. This 5+ years while engine development wait would have been whole a lot for productive development of Altay. Altay wouldn't had the same status today. If it was used in Syria, we would be promoting right now about how it is one very few modern MBT used in, designed for real battlefield conditions. Would had given us leverage when it comes to exporting. Biggest issue to me is very questionable planning.

Are we allowed to use tanks with German engines even if they were procured before an embargo, I don't think so.

 

[TheInsider]

If we had German engines we would have put off engine development.
You need to the push off urgency to move forward.
Things are happening in a favorable way.

Sure we will have outdated tanks by 2025.

 

[TheInsider]

Are we allowed to use tanks with German engines even if they were procured before an embargo, I don't think so.

Are we allowed to use Atak helicopters with American engines? I think so.

 

[Zafer]

Sure we will have outdated tanks by 2025.

A piece of equipment is only outdated if you don't update, there is nothing holding us from updating the Altay. On the contrary Altay would only be outdated if it were built with the tech of 5 years ago, now that we are experimenting with electric and all we have a chance to make the most up to date tank.

 

[Zafer]

Are we allowed to use Atak helicopters with American engines? I think so.

We have been sanctioned many times for Leopards in the past by Germany. We will be sanctioned for German engines too. Getting sanctioned we will risk parts for our submarines and future projects.

Atak engines are American.

And we are already being sanctioned for all things American barring a few things like turbines because we will copy them if we are sanctioned.

 

[Huelague]

Sure we will have outdated tanks by 2025.

Outdated? Because of 5-6 years. We are using stuffs which are decades old. From ships over tanks to jets.

 

[TheInsider]

We have been sanctioned many times for Leopards in the past by Germany. We will be sanctioned for German engines too. Getting sanctioned we will risk parts for our submarines and future projects.

Atak engines are American.

And we are already being sanctioned for all things American barring a few things like turbines because we will copy them if we are sanctioned.

Buying an off-the-shelf ready product and producing one with a foreign subsystem is different. No one can prevent us from using our own tanks however we want. They can stop selling said subsystem but it will be too late when we have 100 Altays. Leopard tanks are different. It is a German tank delivered to us via German military grants.

 

[TheInsider]

Outdated? Because of 5-6 years. We are using stuffs which are decades old. From ships over tanks to jets.

Yes because of 5-6 years. I'm done explaining things like i explain to Bilal.

 

[Inspector_spacetime]

I told you. By the end of 2016, the tank was %100 ready for serial production. There was no German embargo at that time. 50-100 MTU powerpack could have been acquired in a year or two. After that embargo would have been meaningless and we would have been in possession of enough tanks to work on the national engine and the next version of Altay.

One of the best outcome under the conditions would have been prioritizing national engine development starting 2015-16. 2015 contract shouldn't have been given to Albayrak. SSB should had just picked or created a company and invested in engine infrastructure as soon as possible which ended up happening later. Altay T0, at least 40 initial tank lot should have been built with German engines starting 2016 until the predictable embargo happened. This would had allowed 40-50+ Altay to enter service as soon as possible, which in turn could have allowed for well needed training and real feedback from the field. This 5+ years while engine development wait would have been whole a lot for productive development of Altay. Altay wouldn't had the same status today. If it was used in Syria, we would be promoting right now about how it is one very few modern MBT used in, designed for real battlefield conditions. Would had given us leverage when it comes to exporting. Biggest issue to me is very questionable planning.

Altay was ready for serial production in, at least, october of 2016 according to Ali Koc (https://t24.com.tr/haber/altay-tanki-seri-uretim-icin-hazir,369990).
But we were getting embargoed before 2016 (or at the very least in 2016). Austrian government blocked AVL to give technical assistance to Tumosan regarding the development of local engine. This article was written in October of 2015 (cancelation of Tumosan tank engine project): https://www.milliyet.com.tr/ekonomi/altay-in-kalbine-avusturya-katkisi-2135167
Austria, Netherlands, Germany, etc all had the same policies regarding the defamation of Turkey in their media (this has been going on since2012/2013 at least, where I first noticed this in the Netherlands). That Austria blocked technical support, we could tentatively conclude that Germany was already blocking (or would've blocked) the procurement of engine's, as Germany's policies go hand in hand with Austria.

This article, written in march of 2017, talks about how an embargo by the German's would effect the Turkish military industry:

Almanya'nın silah satışı engeli Türkiye'yi nasıl etkiler? – DW – 23.03.2017

Alman hükümetinin birçok defa Türkiye'ye silah ihracatını engellediğinin ortaya çıkması iki ülke arasında yeni bir gerginliğe neden oldu. Uzmanlara göre, Türkiye savunma konusunda eksen kayması yaşayabilir.

www.dw.com

It goes on to say that the German state blocked several products since 2010.
From article: "2010-2015 yılları arasında kimi savunma malzemelerinin Türkiye'ye ihracatına sekiz kez izin vermeyen Alman hükümetinin, 2016 Kasımı'ndan bu yana da tam 11 kez silah ihracatını engellediğinin ortaya çıkması gözleri Türkiye'ye çevirdi."
This sentence suggests that Germany went to full embargo from Otcober 2016 onward (the same month Altay was confirmed to be ready for serial production by Ali Koc).
It said that the embargo's were on small arms, bullets and some defence products in the next paragraph of the article, but we know now that these embargoes included (or was on the verge to include) tank engine's (probably considered as a 'defence product').
Ali Koc (from top source): "Düğmeye basıldığı andan itibaren seri üretime 18-22 ay içinde başlayacağız."
So when SSM had given Otokar the green light, it would've taken Otokar 18 to 22 months to start serial production. Which even in this case would've been within the scope of Germany's ban. According to Ali Koc's quote, the production line for the Altay tank would've been ready within 18 to 22 month's. So the actual work on the first tank would've begun somewhere around april 2019.
However, Ali Koc's quote is a bit ambiguous. Maybe he meant the first tank would roll out in 18 to 22 months. In that case the first tank would be ready in april of 2019 (18 months). But still in both cases, the serial production could not have avoided the German ban on engine's.

According to this info, even if serial production of Altay began in 2016, it would've still had the same problems it is facing today, regarding engine's. What Turkish government should've done, according to this info, was to stock up the 250 engine's and transmissions before the 2010's. But in 2010, Altay was in it's 3'rd year of R&D, buying and stocking up so many engine's that early on would've been a risky move. Maybe they could've procured the engine's between 2010 to 2015, but Germany was already blocking some exports back then so no guarentee that the engine's would not have been blocked.

Buying an off-the-shelf ready product and producing one with a foreign subsystem is different. No one can prevent us from using our own tanks however we want. They can stop selling said subsystem but it will be too late when we have 100 Altays. Leopard tanks are different. It is a German tank delivered to us via German military grants.

They can't prevent you from using them. But depending on how it's written in the contract, if Turkey for example is in breach of how the subsystem is used, than the foreign exporter can refuse to sell you the subsystem or any subcomponents for the subsystem. An example of this is Wescam camera's for TB2. The contract stated that these were designated to be used by Turkey only (specifically Turk Deniz Kuvvetleri). But since they were also used in the Karabagh conflict, Canada imposed embargoe's to Turkey, as Turkey was in breach of contract in this case. Tolga Ozbek explains it from the 4 minute mark onwards:

In other words, it all depends on what's agreed and written in the contract when procuring systems and subsystems.

 

[Era_shield]

Altay was ready for serial production in, at least, october of 2016 according to Ali Koc (https://t24.com.tr/haber/altay-tanki-seri-uretim-icin-hazir,369990).
But we were getting embargoed before 2016 (or at the very least in 2016). Austrian government blocked AVL to give technical assistance to Tumosan regarding the development of local engine. This article was written in October of 2015 (cancelation of Tumosan tank engine project): https://www.milliyet.com.tr/ekonomi/altay-in-kalbine-avusturya-katkisi-2135167
Austria, Netherlands, Germany, etc all had the same policies regarding the defamation of Turkey in their media (this has been going on since2012/2013 at least, where I first noticed this in the Netherlands). That Austria blocked technical support, we could tentatively conclude that Germany was already blocking (or would've blocked) the procurement of engine's, as Germany's policies go hand in hand with Austria.

This article, written in march of 2017, talks about how an embargo by the German's would effect the Turkish military industry:

Almanya'nın silah satışı engeli Türkiye'yi nasıl etkiler? – DW – 23.03.2017

Alman hükümetinin birçok defa Türkiye'ye silah ihracatını engellediğinin ortaya çıkması iki ülke arasında yeni bir gerginliğe neden oldu. Uzmanlara göre, Türkiye savunma konusunda eksen kayması yaşayabilir.

www.dw.com

It goes on to say that the German state blocked several products since 2010.
From article: "2010-2015 yılları arasında kimi savunma malzemelerinin Türkiye'ye ihracatına sekiz kez izin vermeyen Alman hükümetinin, 2016 Kasımı'ndan bu yana da tam 11 kez silah ihracatını engellediğinin ortaya çıkması gözleri Türkiye'ye çevirdi."
This sentence suggests that Germany went to full embargo from Otcober 2016 onward (the same month Altay was confirmed to be ready for serial production by Ali Koc).
It said that the embargo's were on small arms, bullets and some defence products in the next paragraph of the article, but we know now that these embargoes included (or was on the verge to include) tank engine's (probably considered as a 'defence product').
Ali Koc (from top source): "Düğmeye basıldığı andan itibaren seri üretime 18-22 ay içinde başlayacağız."
So when SSM had given Otokar the green light, it would've taken Otokar 18 to 22 months to start serial production. Which even in this case would've been within the scope of Germany's ban. According to Ali Koc's quote, the production line for the Altay tank would've been ready within 18 to 22 month's. So the actual work on the first tank would've begun somewhere around april 2019.
However, Ali Koc's quote is a bit ambiguous. Maybe he meant the first tank would roll out in 18 to 22 months. In that case the first tank would be ready in april of 2019 (18 months). But still in both cases, the serial production could not have avoided the German ban on engine's.

According to this info, even if serial production of Altay began in 2016, it would've still had the same problems it is facing today, regarding engine's. What Turkish government should've done, according to this info, was to stock up the 250 engine's and transmissions before the 2010's. But in 2010, Altay was in it's 3'rd year of R&D, buying and stocking up so many engine's that early on would've been a risky move. Maybe they could've procured the engine's between 2010 to 2015, but Germany was already blocking some exports back then so no guarentee that the engine's would not have been blocked.


They can't prevent you from using them. But depending on how it's written in the contract, if Turkey for example is in breach of how the subsystem is used, than the foreign exporter can refuse to sell you the subsystem or any subcomponents for the subsystem. An example of this is Wescam camera's for TB2. The contract stated that these were designated to be used by Turkey only (specifically Turk Deniz Kuvvetleri). But since they were also used in the Karabagh conflict, Canada imposed embargoe's to Turkey, as Turkey was in breach of contract in this case. Tolga Ozbek explains it from the 4 minute mark onwards:

In other words, it all depends on what's agreed and written in the contract when procuring systems and subsystems.

Yes I remember this too. Early on, Germany hadn't announced it yet but it was obvious that they were not going to sell the engine and were waiting until production started to slam down an engine embargo to do maximum economic damage and exert maximum political pressure. At that time I kept telling people that these mysterious excuses about the delay are BS, the reason is simply because Germany won't sell the engine.

 

[Ryder]

Yes I remember this too. Early on, Germany hadn't announced it yet but it was obvious that they were not going to sell the engine and were waiting until production started to slam down an engine embargo to do maximum economic damage and exert maximum political pressure. At that time I kept telling people that these mysterious excuses about the delay are BS, the reason is simply because Germany won't sell the engine.

Germans will embargo an ally but they have no problems when their weapons end up in terrorists and cartel hands.

 

[Anmdt]

Are we allowed to use tanks with German engines even if they were procured before an embargo, I don't think so.

Once you own the engine you can do anything with that, as long as not exporting or selling to third parties which has different consequences. However the manufacturer has right to not provide any spare parts, you may see in TAF's tenders website to see how many spare parts are imported annually for these engines.

If we had German engines we would have put off engine development.
You need to the push off urgency to move forward.
Things are happening in a favorable way.

The actual plan since the beginning was to use German engines in first lot of 250, put them in service as quick as possible with T1 variant and replace aging tanks. If the serial production was awarded to someone capable, whole engines could have been imported in a very short time (Germans are strange people, they also focus on things in financial point of view and foreseeing an embargo the company would have made the deal and make the deliveries), the problem for spare parts can definitely be resolved by the time with negotiation or black-market, middle-men. Like the spare-part issues of Leos have been peacefully solved. Getting the spare-parts is a lot easier than the getting the actual engine + transmission.

And meanwhile an engine + transmission study would go on for T2. But yeah we all know the rest of the story.

 

[Ecderha]

Why we talking same thing over and over again.

It is happend in the Best way that even ppl of Turkiye and around the world understand that They (psuedo allies) -> Germany, Austria had/have plan to wait Turkiye to mature Altay tank project and When it become READY for Production then Baaaaaaaaaaam. Embargo on all fronts

Germany applied embargo on Engines.
Austrian government blocked AVL Tumosan regarding the development of local engine.

It is simple YOU CAN'T start production of Altay tank when There are not ENGINES.

250 enginge which we talking about are not in Turkiye soil.
It was only PAPER deal!
So Contract was Blocked/Embaroged by Germany
Turkiye officals Try to discuss the issue/matter couple of time with Merkel-> result is that She said it is not up to her -> which was lie it mean to divert direction of talking to other parties so at end Psuedo Allies achive the goal -> Stop Turkiye from building Tanks

But now in present it is show that we have matured our Local engine. I really happy that Turkiye did't stop and became independet from psudo allies with OWN platforms