TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

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Manomed

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Let wait till the korean powerpack is ready to be integrated into Altay before attacking Bmc.

Besides no one would prefer to have Altay instead of the TB2... Turkey is not under threat of armored invasion so it can wait...
Amazing point of view lets not have good armors so Our ground troops can get butchered in syria you Know what LETS DISBAND F16 fleets and just use tb2 thats a good idea. Have you seen the greek tanks? bruh literally go read some books.
Memes just writes themself this guy will defend bmc even If they take his home lmao He says It can wait, wait for how long our armored corps are in state of dispair while we are sending non modified M60s to syria and they are getting blown up all the time. According to this guy we should disband our F16 fleets too
 
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Tornadoss

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We saw modernized leos in army training video with roketsan armor however without at least pulat they are still vulnerable.
 

Huelague

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in tank warfare and combat is that you save yourself the question of why the Israeli tank commanders always keep their heads out.

for status awareness?

This is where the 4th crew comes into play ..

More important than how thick the armor is, how strong the tank engine is

Akkor is ready, Meteksan is also working for a soft kill solution.

Which kind of soft kill system?
 

TheInsider

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in tank warfare and combat is that you save yourself the question of why the Israeli tank commanders always keep their heads out.

for status awareness?

This is where the 4th crew comes into play ..

More important than how thick the armor is, how strong the tank engine is
4th man is useless on the modern battlefield. Google Aselsan Yamgöz.
 
T

Turko

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But I appreciate the explanation as to why 4th man was necessary. It's something we forget easily. :)
How could you repair something around the tank if there is mechanical problem. Parts of MBT are very heavy , there are some situations tank crews have to deal with own self without help.
Americans keep 4 crew so they must have estimated every detail.
 

Kartal1

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Not related to the Altay tank but just want to post it so we can understand how important is armor for a tank.

M60T Sabra took an Kornet ATGM hit in Iraq. No casualties among the crew.

1635417784513.png
 
T

Turko

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Not related to the Altay tank but just want to post it so we can understand how important is armor for a tank.

M60T Sabra took an Kornet ATGM hit in Iraq. No casualties among the crew.

View attachment 34510
I'm little bit confused. As ATGM's have top attack capability, why it didn't destroy our tank( Gratefully).

So could we assume Laser guided man portable ATGMs are less effective and lethal?



That's why we should prefer separate launchers with UMTAS top of the tank turret rather than laser guided tank ammunition -which is launched from tank gun -
 

Kartal1

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I'm little bit confused. As ATGM's have top attack capability, why it didn't destroy our tank( Gratefully).

So could we assume Laser guided man portable ATGMs are less lethal?

That's why we should prefer separate launchers with UMTAS top of the tank turret rather than laser guided tank ammunition -which is launched from tank gun -
I don't think it is a problem of the guidance. It was hit with a 9K135 Kornet ATGM missile which is of older generation and doesn't have a top attack capability. With that post I wanted to showcase the quality of the Israeli armor package implemented within the scope of the Sabra modernization.

In order to put a tank out of action it is not a must to destroy it. As shown in the Karabakh war to put a tank out of action it is enough to destroy the engine. Going by the same principle I think it is enough to damage the periscopes/ E/O systems (as in this case with the Sabra) or damage the turret of a tank in order to put it out of action.
 

Inspector_spacetime

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I don't like to point out people who have repeatedly defended BMC, but I am genuinely curious what @Inspector_spacetime has to say about it.
Everything I wrote in about this topic still stands as I have provided all the sources for the arugments that I made. Not only that, I doubt the rumor that @TheInsider posted is true because it contradicts the timeline that happened so far regarding SSB, the problems surrounding serial production mainly the powerpack. Potential engine's that could be imported form Korea, hidden ambargo from Germany that started as early as 2017 or 2016 even (posted the exact year in one of my previous posts in this thread).

Here's why I doubt the rumor posted is not true though. Don't get me wrong, I don't know the real reason why Ethem Sancak sold his shares, maybe there were personal problems, but I doubt even Erdogan can't force Ethem Sancak sell his shares though. Purely because BMC is a private company and Ethem Sancak is an individual. I am pretty sure it's not because of engine problems as that is something out of Ethem Sancak's control. Local engine being cited as the problem can't be right either, especially considering that Turkish powerpack's roadmap has been known since for a while now, maybe even since it's inception (can't be bothered looking for a source now, but confirm this by looking for a proper source). It doesn't make sense why it would be a problem now, when it wasn't a problem a few years ago (problem in the sense that it would trigger a restructuring in a companies shareholders). Mind you, the local engine project hasn't been delayed, it was known that it would take that long. The problem with serial production was the procurement of engine's, which I have stated in my previous posts.

Here's another reason why I think the rumor posted by Insider is far fetched. The powerpack problem has been known to us since 2018 or 2019, and SSB/Ismail Demir have been looking for alternative's ever since, the sources I have written in my previous posts will corroborate this. We even discussed this back on PKD. But the rumor suggests that Erdogan phoned Ismail Demir to find a powerpack after the Tosyali holding takeover. But that is improbable as we had been discussing possible Korean powerpack for years now, back on PKD as well. Back then people said that the Korean transmission wasn't ready/didn't pass qualification tests. And if Erdogan phoned Ismail Demir before the Tosyali takeover, then we are back at point 1: Powerpack issue, a problem that is out of control for BMC and by extension Ethem Sancak. That is why it is very unlikely that Ethem Sancak left because of Altay serial production issues as the rumor suggests.

My personal opinion on Ethem Sancak leaving? I don't know why he left, nor do I care. I do think it's better this way, as he was always the target of political arguments in order to get to Erdogan. This is not Ethem Sancak's fault in my opinion, it is the fault of low-level policies (subjective instead of objective politics and journalism). Case in point, if the head of BMC was someone that didn't have a strong political opinion, none of these arguments would have ever existed. Which is also why I have doubts regarding this rumor, as the rumor heavily implies corruption, which I know is being used as a policy by politicians and biased journalists. The "rumor" is basicly parroting this or trying to feed from this, there is clearly a political bias both in context as well as the wording, it's pretty clear there are strong biases in there. It wouldn't be be wisest choice to take such a rumor at face value.

The only part that I don't really have an opinion on is the BMC stopping with the factory and Atlay project. I don't know if BMC is profitable or not, however a company being not profitable for a few years doesn't necessarely mean that the leaderboard of the company thinks the company is performing bad though. It depends on the strategy and roadmap. For instance Tesla wasn't profitable for years, but they planned for that. They were in the green in 2020, not because of sold cars, but because of them selling emission credits to other car companies (source: https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/31/investing/tesla-profitability/index.html).
But if we think BMC as a whole (it is a company that is more than just military vehicles), I don't know how it performs and maybe Tosyali won't find the new factory feasible. However, I must add that BMC will get super tesvik (incentives) for the new factory. But if the BMC leadership won't find it to be feasible even with super tesvik, then they may very well abandon the factory. The factory has made some progress, if I recall correctly, but won't be comissioned for a few years though, so abandoning the factory at this stage might not be the wisest choice. I also can't help but wonder, if BMC was performing so bad, why would Tosyali buy into BMC? I doubt Tosyali would buy into BMC just to divest, that doesn't really make sense to me now that I think about it. Coupled with super tesvik and the progress on the factory, I don't think BMC will divest on the factory at least.

By the way, I didn't "defend" BMC for the sake of defending it, I applied critical thinking to the subject to the best of my ability. My broader point was that BMC, a company of immense strategic value, was being scapegoated to pointless political arguments. And that ultimately it doesn't matter whose logo is on our products, whether its BMC, Otokar, FNSS, etc. as in all cases it is 'ours'. Don't you think it's absurd and super sad that an immensly valueble and strategic company like BMC and Koc (yep, I defended Koc with the very same arguments, as Koc is sometimes also being attacked with political arguments) needs any defending? Especially considering where the attacks come from?
 

Lool

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MKEK ROKETSAN HAVELSAN all of them are more Important than BMC
Mate
You cant compare one of the largest and most profitable companies worldwide, like Rocketsan, to a small one like BMC
The difference is massive
Dont get me wrong though, Each defense company is crucial even BMC! But just dont compare it with the top dogs quickly; give it time to grow
I wonder how many countries worldwide would dream for BMC to open a branch in their land (even for us Albanians)
You should really be grateful that you guys are starting to have a plethora of defense industries in each sector
 
M

Manomed

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Mate
You cant compare one of the largest and most profitable companies worldwide, like Rocketsan, to a small one like BMC
The difference is massive
Dont get me wrong though, Each defense company is crucial even BMC! But just dont compare it with the top dogs quickly; give it time to grow
I wonder how many countries worldwide would dream for BMC to open a branch in their land (even for us Albanians)
You should really be grateful that you guys are starting to have a plethora of defense industries in each sector
didn't albania bought MRAPs from BMC?
 

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