TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Saithan]

I’d still want to find out why. Remember that if you are on the right side these things are easily solved. But if you are no longer in the ‘friend’ category it becomes much harder to solve the issue at hand.

US spying on Merkel etc. Or Australia scrapping French Subs, India getting S400 vs. Turkey getting S400

 

[Baljak]

I’d still want to find out why. Remember that if you are on the right side these things are easily solved. But if you are no longer in the ‘friend’ category it becomes much harder to solve the issue at hand.

US spying on Merkel etc. Or Australia scrapping French Subs, India getting S400 vs. Turkey getting S400

I should have been more careful when posting. Don't misunderstand. Except for incidents that took place in the military sector, most Koreans are still fond of Turkey. In the past, 60,000 Turkish soldiers came to South Korea to help us from North Korea, China, and the Soviet Union to protect South Korea, a small country in the East. If the relationship between Turkey and Korea was bad, Korea would have ignored Turkey's request for engine supply. Turkey and Korea still have a good relationship. We don't have to hate or be prejudiced against someone for just one reason

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467037004714373121

Signing of a deal on powerpack between TR and SK expected.

 

[Anastasius]

I am more curious as to how the Turkish government handled the fallout. Were there any apologies, attempts to find the culprits responsible for the bribery and punish them, offers to provide some tech transfers from Turkey in return that SK could be interested in (though I don't know what SK could want from Turkey technologically that they couldn't build themselves but hypothetically), etc? Even as incompetent as they are, I could still see AKP doing everything possible to fix relations with South Korea following such an unpleasant situation. You don't throw away good relations with a country like that over a bribery scandal.

 

[Baljak]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467037004714373121

Signing of a deal on powerpack between TR and SK expected.

This contract should be considered as the first test of the improved S&T Dynamics' EST15K transmission. Seriously, Most Koreans are going crazy wondering if this transmission will roll without a problem at 65 tons of Altay tank

 

[Baljak]

I am more curious as to how the Turkish government handled the fallout. Were there any apologies, attempts to find the culprits responsible for the bribery and punish them, offers to provide some tech transfers from Turkey in return that SK could be interested in (though I don't know what SK could want from Turkey technologically that they couldn't build themselves but hypothetically), etc? Even as incompetent as they are, I could still see AKP doing everything possible to fix relations with South Korea following such an unpleasant situation. You don't throw away good relations with a country like that over a bribery scandal.

And honestly, most Koreans who are not interested in the military field don't know much about this issue

 

[Saithan]

This contract should be considered as the first test of the improved S&T Dynamics' EST15K transmission. Seriously, Most Koreans are going crazy wondering if this transmission will roll without a problem at 65 tons of Altay tank

Is the SK tank lighter than Altay ? 65t is a lot. And my understanding of modern tanks are limited. With new doctrins being introduces. It makes me wonder if adding more armour is going to change anything.

 

[Baljak]

Is the SK tank lighter than Altay ? 65t is a lot. And my understanding of modern tanks are limited. With new doctrins being introduces. It makes me wonder if adding more armour is going to change anything.

Most of the representative Western tanks are designed to maintain a weight of more than 60 tons. For example, M1A2 SEP v3(66.8 tons) tanks in the United States and Leopard 2A7(66.5 tons) tanks in Germany weigh more than 65 tons.

The only drawback of these tanks is their weight. However, these tanks have been steadily improving to this day, even though decades have passed since they were developed due to their good scalability. These tanks are designed with a large body and turret for scalability, so it is very easy to modify or improve the design.

On the other hand, tanks in the Soviet Union, Russia, and Asia occupy the mainstream with tanks weighing less than 60 tons.

In the past, Soviet and Russian tanks were light in weight because they made turrets and bodies low and narrow to reduce the area hit by enemy tanks' shells. It is safe to say that the Soviet and Russian T-series tanks were developed for Hull Down.

And modern tanks in China, Japan, and Korea also weigh less than 60 tons in common. In common, most of the topography of China, Japan, and Korea (Korean peninsula) consists of mountains. In the case of Chinese Type 99A2(54 tons) and South Korean K2(55 tons), tanks designed to be light and low-body for operation in the mountains are the mainstream.

These tanks are light in weight, so they are free from restrictions on engines and drive systems and can be operated in rough areas such as alpine areas. However, these tanks lack scalability, so they require a lot of design changes and are expensive to improve.

Type 10, the latest Japanese tank, is a bit unusual case. Due to the geographical nature of Japan, which consists of islands, the turret and body are made small so that tanks can be easily transported by rail, weighing 48 tons even when fully armed.

Different countries have different tank tactics, but in common, all modern tanks, including Altay, have the thickest front of the turret and body. Improvement of side and rear armor is only optional. Unlike Russian and Asian tanks, Altay tanks weighing 65 tons are classified as Western tanks.

 

[Lool]

I am more curious as to how the Turkish government handled the fallout. Were there any apologies, attempts to find the culprits responsible for the bribery and punish them, offers to provide some tech transfers from Turkey in return that SK could be interested in (though I don't know what SK could want from Turkey technologically that they couldn't build themselves but hypothetically), etc? Even as incompetent as they are, I could still see AKP doing everything possible to fix relations with South Korea following such an unpleasant situation. You don't throw away good relations with a country like that over a bribery scandal.

Looool
What do you think RTE and AKP will do? Will they punish Otokar? Or will they make such news public?
Lets be honest here, Iam not saying that what happened is correct; but, why are you primarily blaming the government over here? Shouldnt the main problem be in the Korean general who ACCEPTED the bribe in the first place? I mean this is how things are done normally. Moreover, Otokar is a private company which the government has no Control upon; thus, them acting illegally is completely out of RTE's hands.

Now, I believe that what @Saithan said makes sense! Everyone was confused as to why a mere bus company suddenly got the contract rather than Otokar; which coupled by this news makes sense.

One can deduce that the multi-billion dollar deal being taken out of Otokar's hands was some sort of punishment by the AKP and SSB for doing such things as well as pleasing the Koreans (since they were probably way too pissed off and their anger was completely justified tbh).

And i honestly dont see how RTE and SSB would have punished Otokar by anything else tbh. Do you know how many are employed by Otokar? Do you know how many dollars enter the country due to Otokar? Do you know what reputation and global brand does Otokar provide for TSK and its armed industry? Do you know that Otokar is a major pillar in the vehicle industry by now? When Otokar falls, Turkey will take a massive hit

I would honestly say good job by SSB and RTE for somehow convincing the koreans to keep this event as much as possible under the rug; in order to save Otokar's ass and its reputation or the company would have fallen in less than a day. It just shows how deep is the relation between South Korea and Turkey

Just think about it, if the govt was actually involved, you think this would easily be kept under the rug? You think the Western companies and governments wouldnt know about the event and start placing restrictions when their defense companies start dealing with SSB and AKP? You think that Western media would keep silent on this when it was a golden opportunity to destroy the reputation of turkish defense industry especially when Turkey in 2016 disobeyed the EU and USA and entered Syria? You think KOREA would ever sell weapons to Turkey again? If the govt really was involved and I was the president of South Korea, then I assure you that I and South Koreans would never even sell a bolt to Turkey or Erdogan ever again


Thx for @Baljak for sharing such news. I honestly never knew such a thing happened. A lot of things started to click after reading what you posted

 

[Anastasius]

Is the SK tank lighter than Altay ? 65t is a lot. And my understanding of modern tanks are limited. With new doctrins being introduces. It makes me wonder if adding more armour is going to change anything.

I think Altay will probably undergo a few more modifications to drop the weight before all is said and done. You don't really need to go over 62-63 tons in most cases.

Looool
What do you think RTE and AKP will do? Will they punish Otokar? Or will they make such news public?
Lets be honest here, Iam not saying that what happened is correct; but, why are you primarily blaming the government over here? Shouldnt the main problem be in the Korean general who ACCEPTED the bribe in the first place? I mean this is how things are done normally. Moreover, Otokar is a private company which the government has no Control upon; thus, them acting illegally is completely out of RTE's hands.

Now, I believe that what @Saithan said makes sense! Everyone was confused as to why a mere bus company suddenly got the contract rather than Otokar; which coupled by this news makes sense.

One can deduce that the multi-billion dollar deal being taken out of Otokar's hands was some sort of punishment by the AKP and SSB for doing such things as well as pleasing the Koreans (since they were probably way too pissed off and their anger was completely justified tbh).

And i honestly dont see how RTE and SSB would have punished Otokar by anything else tbh. Do you know how many are employed by Otokar? Do you know how many dollars enter the country due to Otokar? Do you know what reputation and global brand does Otokar provide for TSK and its armed industry? Do you know that Otokar is a major pillar in the vehicle industry by now? When Otokar falls, Turkey will take a massive hit

I would honestly say good job by SSB and RTE for somehow convincing the koreans to keep this event as much as possible under the rug; in order to save Otokar's ass and its reputation or the company would have fallen in less than a day. It just shows how deep is the relation between South Korea and Turkey

Just think about it, if the govt was actually involved, you think this would easily be kept under the rug? You think the Western companies and governments wouldnt know about the event and start placing restrictions when their defense companies start dealing with SSB and AKP? You think that Western media would keep silent on this when it was a golden opportunity to destroy the reputation of turkish defense industry especially when Turkey in 2016 disobeyed the EU and USA and entered Syria? You think KOREA would ever sell weapons to Turkey again? If the govt really was involved and I was the president of South Korea, then I assure you that I and South Koreans would never even sell a bolt to Turkey or Erdogan ever again


Thx for @Baljak for sharing such news. I honestly never knew such a thing happened. A lot of things started to click after reading what you posted

I am not blaming anyone and you need to stop jumping to AKP's defense at every perceived slight. Regardless of who was to blame (it was both the general and those who bribed them) such events reflect on countries as a whole and require delicate diplomacy to reassure the other party that you are still reliable, are not stabbing them in the back and do not tolerate acts like bribing army officials, even if it's for the benefit of your own military. That's why I was asking about how this was handled by the Turkish government behind the scenes.

We don't even know if Otokar WAS involved or if it was someone else but thanks for jumping to conclusions right as expected.

 

[Combat-Master]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1467104670611034112

 

[Baljak]

I think Altay will probably undergo a few more modifications to drop the weight before all is said and done. You don't really need to go over 62-63 tons in most cases.

I am not blaming anyone and you need to stop jumping to AKP's defense at every perceived slight. Regardless of who was to blame (it was both the general and those who bribed them) such events reflect on countries as a whole and require delicate diplomacy to reassure the other party that you are still reliable, are not stabbing them in the back and do not tolerate acts like bribing army officials, even if it's for the benefit of your own military. That's why I was asking about how this was handled by the Turkish government behind the scenes.

We don't even know if Otokar WAS involved or if it was someone else but thanks for jumping to conclusions right as expected.

It is unlikely that the weight of the Altay will be reduced to less than 65 tons. Because there are two things that Turkey's Ministry of National Defense strongly demanded from Otokar and Hyundai Rotem in the contract in the Altay tank development project.

First: It should have thicker front armor than K2.

Second: When shooting a shell while stationary, the accuracy rate should be higher than K2.

To further reduce the weight of the Altay tank means that something of these two is missing or reduced.

 

[Zafer]

I should have been more careful when posting. Don't misunderstand. Except for incidents that took place in the military sector, most Koreans are still fond of Turkey. In the past, 60,000 Turkish soldiers came to South Korea to help us from North Korea, China, and the Soviet Union to protect South Korea, a small country in the East. If the relationship between Turkey and Korea was bad, Korea would have ignored Turkey's request for engine supply. Turkey and Korea still have a good relationship. We don't have to hate or be prejudiced against someone for just one reason

Is it because I have seen a few Chinese dramas instead of continuing with sageuk?

 

[Baljak]

Is it because I have seen a few Chinese dramas instead of continuing with sageuk?

Yessss Kanka, I don't watch sageuk either. I'm watching Baht Oyunu these days to see the lovely Cemre Baysel

 

[TheInsider]

Days of 65+tons 4 man tanks are over.

 

[Baljak]

Days of 65+tons 4 man tanks are over.

As I said before, when I served in the South Korean military for 4 years, I had a chance to actually see the inside of the M1 Abrams tank and K2 tank when I was training with the US military and I realized how different the difference between the two was.

The reason why M1 Abrams tanks and Leopard 2 tanks, decades after their development, still do not adopt autoloader is that manual loading does not significantly differ in the speed at which ammunition is reloaded compared to autoloader. In the case of the M1 tank, Loader is ordered by the tank commander and reloads the ammunition within 7 seconds, and skilled Loaders can load new shells within 3 to 4 seconds.

And the other is that the adoption of autoloader increases the weight of tanks by more than 6 tons on average.

Do you know why tanks using autoloader, such as Russia's T series(Including T-14 armata), France's Leclerc, Type 99, Type 10, and K2, weigh less than 60 tons? That's because the weight of the composite armor was reduced for the autoloader system. In other words, this means that the thickness of the armor was reduced for use the autoloader system.

On the other hand, tanks such as M1 Abrams and Challenger 2 focused on armor improvement except for autoloader system and auto image tracking devices that are sufficiently replaceable with the crew's personal capabilities. None of the tank shells currently exist that can pierce the M1 Abrams and Challenger 2 front armor.

Except for Russia, China, Japan, South Korea, and France, other countries still do not adopt autoloader due to the reliability of autoloader system.
There is certainly a reason why the United States still does not use autoloader system developed decades ago for M1 Abrams.

With the automated design of military equipment, the era of tanks operated by four people will eventually disappear, but now it is still the era of tanks operated by 4 man.

 

[Huelague]

As I said before, when I served in the South Korean military for 4 years, I had a chance to actually see the inside of the M1 Abrams tank and K2 tank when I was training with the US military and I realized how different the difference between the two was.

The reason why M1 Abrams tanks and Leopard 2 tanks, decades after their development, still do not adopt autoloader is that manual loading does not significantly differ in the speed at which ammunition is reloaded compared to autoloader. In the case of the M1 tank, Loader is ordered by the tank commander and reloads the ammunition within 7 seconds, and skilled Loaders can load new shells within 3 to 4 seconds.

And the other is that the adoption of autoloader increases the weight of tanks by more than 6 tons on average.

Do you know why tanks using autoloader, such as Russia's T series(Including T-14 armata), France's Leclerc, Type 99, Type 10, and K2, weigh less than 60 tons? That's because the weight of the composite armor was reduced for the autoloader system. In other words, this means that the thickness of the armor was reduced for use the autoloader system.

On the other hand, tanks such as M1 Abrams and Challenger 2 focused on armor improvement except for autoloader system and auto image tracking devices that are sufficiently replaceable with the crew's personal capabilities. None of the tank shells currently exist that can pierce the M1 Abrams and Challenger 2 front armor.

Except for Russia, China, Japan, South Korea, and France, other countries still do not adopt autoloader due to the reliability of autoloader system.
There is certainly a reason why the United States still does not use autoloader system developed decades ago for M1 Abrams.

With the automated design of military equipment, the era of tanks operated by four people will eventually disappear, but now it is still the era of tanks operated by 4 man.

Any idea how much an ammunition for 130mm barrel weights?

 

[Baljak]

Any idea how much an ammunition for 130mm barrel weights?

If i guess the weight of the ammunition of the RH130 L51 shown in this picture, it will be 80 to 90% heavier than the shell of the RH120 L55, the DM63.

The DM63 weighs 21.4 kg, and the RH130 L51 shell is estimated to be at least 38kg. This weight is really hard for healthy soldiers to carry. I think autoloader systems will be essential if all tanks around the world use 130 mm main guns in the future.

The Main Ground Combat System(MGCS), a joint German and French tank development project to be developed in 2030 with Leopard 2, which was improved by Rheinmetall in 2025, will also be equipped with RH130. Recently, Rheinmetall tested the UK Challenger 2 tank with a RH130 L51.

In the not-too-distant future, when the main gun of the tank is long and large, the tank without the autoloader system will disappear one day.

 

[TheInsider]

As I said before, when I served in the South Korean military for 4 years, I had a chance to actually see the inside of the M1 Abrams tank and K2 tank when I was training with the US military and I realized how different the difference between the two was.

The reason why M1 Abrams tanks and Leopard 2 tanks, decades after their development, still do not adopt autoloader is that manual loading does not significantly differ in the speed at which ammunition is reloaded compared to autoloader. In the case of the M1 tank, Loader is ordered by the tank commander and reloads the ammunition within 7 seconds, and skilled Loaders can load new shells within 3 to 4 seconds.

And the other is that the adoption of autoloader increases the weight of tanks by more than 6 tons on average.

Do you know why tanks using autoloader, such as Russia's T series(Including T-14 armata), France's Leclerc, Type 99, Type 10, and K2, weigh less than 60 tons? That's because the weight of the composite armor was reduced for the autoloader system. In other words, this means that the thickness of the armor was reduced for use the autoloader system.

On the other hand, tanks such as M1 Abrams and Challenger 2 focused on armor improvement except for autoloader system and auto image tracking devices that are sufficiently replaceable with the crew's personal capabilities. None of the tank shells currently exist that can pierce the M1 Abrams and Challenger 2 front armor.

Except for Russia, China, Japan, South Korea, and France, other countries still do not adopt autoloader due to the reliability of autoloader system.
There is certainly a reason why the United States still does not use autoloader system developed decades ago for M1 Abrams.

With the automated design of military equipment, the era of tanks operated by four people will eventually disappear, but now it is still the era of tanks operated by 4 man.

There is no need for 4 men anymore advanced situational awareness systems and autoloaders will replace extra men. Crew size will decrease to 3 and 2. Weight will also come down to under 50 tons. Tanks will be accompanied by UGVs.

 

[Nilgiri]

Been a real pleasure to follow your replies over last few pages @Baljak