TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Saithan]

Kaplan MT seems to fit the description, but no word about it from TAF. Despite Aselsan working on the turret (if I remember correct).

 

[Agha Sher]

If you rule the Sky, then you will pick enemy tanks regardless of quality of your tanks. eg Karabagh 2020, Iraq 2003

If Both side doesn't rule the Sky, We are seeing, Quantity is ruling over quality in Ukraine.

So in both Case I don't see truly cutting edge Altay is good for us. We need simpler tank that We can replace all tanks we have m48, m60, Leos. We simple wont be able afford 2000 Altay. Or At Least We need high and Low mix like US air force is trying but Instead of Aircrafts we should plan it for our Tank inventory. At most, 300-400 Altay + 1000-1500 40-45 tonnes medium tank. And Not to mention We about to have the 1000hp engine for such tank.

Not entirely true. in Ukraine, tanks are assulting well fortified defensive positions with layers of anti-tank systems. This is not the ideal sceanrio for tank warfare. A tank's role is rather to conduct blitzkreig and to overpower an enemy very quickly with a surprise effect. There is no surprise effect in Ukraine.

 

[Afif]

Not entirely true. in Ukraine, tanks are assulting well fortified defensive positions with layers of anti-tank systems. This is not the ideal sceanrio for tank warfare. A tank's role is rather to conduct blitzkreig and to overpower an enemy very quickly with a surprise effect. There is no surprise effect in Ukraine.

Well, as it happens, there no such thing as idea scenario for Tank warfare. Once the enemy dug in and prepared the defensive line, the chances for a successful blitzkrieg becomes very very slim in today’s warfare. You can't avoid the necessary attrition.

 

[Agha Sher]

Well, as it happens, there no such thing as idea scenario for Tank warfare. Once the enemy dug in and prepared the defensive line, the chances for a successful blitzkrieg becomes very very slim in today’s warfare. You can avoid the necessary attrition.

Exactly. That's what I am saying. Tanks in the modern battlefield has certain utilities. If you use them outside of those utilities it will end in disaster. If you use the properly it will end in success.

It's like saying TB2 is useless because you decided to use them against the Greek Air Force at the onset of a conflict. Instead, you'll need to wait till you have neutralized enemy air force assets before engaging ground targets with TB2. Likewise for tanks - highly effective at the onset of a conflict to blitz the enemy. However, once the enemy has reestablished their positions tank warfare will lose its value.

 

[B_A]

Exactly. That's what I am saying. Tanks in the modern battlefield has certain utilities. If you use them outside of those utilities it will end in disaster. If you use the properly it will end in success.

It's like saying TB2 is useless because you decided to use them against the Greek Air Force at the onset of a conflict. Instead, you'll need to wait till you have neutralized enemy air force assets before engaging ground targets with TB2. Likewise for tanks - highly effective at the onset of a conflict to blitz the enemy. However, once the enemy has reestablished their positions tank warfare will lose its value.

The problem is,if only in blitz the enemy

A 30-40 tons Tank is better than a 65t one.

 

[Aqerdf]

Russian defence requires unprecedented airpower or brigade and above level tank assault. And not just one big assault, multiple big assaults on either one location or multiple locations.

Ukraine didn't conducted this kind of big assaults. I don't remember even battalion-level of tank assault on one location. The biggest was battalion of mechanized assault i think i saw.

For that you need more han 100 modern jet and/or atleast ~1000 good tank imo (armchair general on).

If Bachmut was't happened, they would attack stronger, people say. I think they could be correct.

Light tanks are not compatible with our doctirine i think.

Modernise Leo 2s
Modernise M60TMs
Modernise M60A3s

And produce 1000 Altay.

I think it's doable with produce / modernize approach.

Only new item could be unmanned sleeve tanks and tankettes.

Light tank situation is like putting precious crewman into Mig-21. Even if they're the best tank crews in the world, their capabilities will be hampered by the tank's capabilities.

Other than geography (soil,infastructure jungles veeery mountainous areas etc.) or far area operation logistics, light tanks are not worth the effort imo.

 

[neosinan]

Not entirely true. in Ukraine, tanks are assulting well fortified defensive positions with layers of anti-tank systems. This is not the ideal sceanrio for tank warfare. A tank's role is rather to conduct blitzkreig and to overpower an enemy very quickly with a surprise effect. There is no surprise effect in Ukraine.

In any modern war, blitzkreig only happens when You have full air superiority. Any ground attack is easily suppressed by opposing air force. Thus Tanks are in supportive role.

Exactly. That's what I am saying. Tanks in the modern battlefield has certain utilities. If you use them outside of those utilities it will end in disaster. If you use the properly it will end in success.

It's like saying TB2 is useless because you decided to use them against the Greek Air Force at the onset of a conflict. Instead, you'll need to wait till you have neutralized enemy air force assets before engaging ground targets with TB2. Likewise for tanks - highly effective at the onset of a conflict to blitz the enemy. However, once the enemy has reestablished their positions tank warfare will lose its value.

What I am saying is, you dont need most expensive tanks like you dont need a predator. We just need a TB2 of Tanks. Good Enough tank that can do the 95% of MBT at half of the price.

 

[boredaf]

light tanks are not worth the effort imo.

Instead of light tanks, we should focus on unmanned platforms like Otokar's Alpar and develop them into something with more punch. For example, something that'll be able to use Roketsan's 105mm turret and 105mm version of Roketsan's Tanok instead of normal rounds. And if it is modular like Alpar, we can also change its weapon load to anti-air or anti-tank role.

 

[Agha Sher]

In any modern war, blitzkreig only happens when You have full air superiority. Any ground attack is easily suppressed by opposing air force. Thus Tanks are in supportive role.



What I am saying is, you dont need most expensive tanks like you dont need a predator. We just need a TB2 of Tanks. Good Enough tank that can do the 95% of MBT at half of the price.

The problem is that the TB2 of tanks will carry 3-4 crew. Thus suddenly it is not expendable. The question is, how much are you willing to pay to protect the crew of your tank. Protection is not only armor but also advanced sensors allowing the crew to spot and engage the enemy first.

A 50% cost tank would have to be without crew.

 

[Afif]

The problem is that the TB2 of tanks will carry 3-4 crew. Thus suddenly it is not expendable. The question is, how much are you willing to pay to protect the crew of your tank. Protection is not only armor but also advanced sensors allowing the crew to spot and engage the enemy first.

A 50% cost tank would have to be without crew.

Not necessarily, here is VT-4 A1.
With advanced sensors + electronics and Active protection system. Cost around $6-6.5 millions only.
Less than half of Altay's cost. ($14-15 millions)

Also, if you make the turret unmanned you can reduce weight by 10 ton at least. Hence also the cost, as you don't have to puy extra armor on turrets to protect the crew.

 

[Agha Sher]

Not necessarily, here is VT-4 A1.
With advanced sensors + electronics and Active protection system. Cost around $6-6.5 millions only.
Less than half of Altay's cost. ($14-15 millions)

View attachment 61532

Also, if you make the turret unmanned you can reduce weight by 10 ton at least. Hence also the cost, as you don't have to puy extra armor on turrets to protect the crew.

View attachment 61531

Isn't the VT-4 A1 not a fancy looking T-72. I'd expect chinese tanks to cook just as well as the russian tanks in a conflict. Wouldn't consider them a good solution to the problem

 

[boredaf]

VT-4 A1

Comparing anything China makes with our, or anyone else for that matter, is meaningless. What they make will almost always be cheaper.

 

[Afif]

Isn't the VT-4 A1 not a fancy looking T-72.

Bruh, VT-5 is superior to T90 let alone T-72. It was developed after MBT-2000.

. I'd expect chinese tanks to cook just as well as the russian tanks in a conflict.

Don't you see western style turret? Its ammo doesn't cook. That's the point.

Wouldn't consider them a good solution to the problem

My friend, you have get out of the notion that it sucks becuase it is Chinese. World is moving ahead faster than we think.

VT-4 actually one of the few operational tanks to incorporate 3rd gen FLIR. (Along with leopard 2 A7 and markava 4m)

 

[Afif]

Comparing anything China makes with our, or anyone else for that matter, is meaningless. What they make will almost always be cheaper.

Compared to Western systems? sure. But today, Chinese GDP is same as Turkey. Thus, i think, saying that they have cheap labour advantage does not apply anymore. Hence, if China can, i think Turkey also should give it a go.

 

[Agha Sher]

Bruh, VT-5 is superior to T90 let alone T-72. It was developed after MBT-2000.



Don't you see western style turret? Its ammo doesn't cook. That's the point.



My friend, you have get out of the notion that it sucks becuase it is Chinese. World is moving ahead faster then we think.

VT-4 actually one of the few operational tanks to incorporate 3rd gen FLIR. (Along with leopard 2 A7 and markava 4m)

Brother, I just made a quick google search. Seems like VT4 has the exact same flawed autoloader design. 100% it will cook when penetrated.

I am not saying what is chinese is crap. I am saying their tank philosophy is similar to the russian. I deeply flawed and disasterous philosophy.

 

[Afif]

Brother, I just made a quick google search. Seems like VT4 has the exact same flawed autoloader design. 100% it will cook when penetrated.

View attachment 61534

I am not saying what is chinese is crap. I am saying their tank philosophy is similar to the russian. I deeply flawed and disasterous philosophy.

You are right, VT-4 has similar feeding mechanism. i confused it with VT-5 which has separate ammunition compartment like Western MBT.

 

[CAN_TR]

All western countries are moving to 130mm or even 140mm (Nexter Ascalon), even if ALTAY T1/T2 will have 120mm main gun, for T3 we should consider a bigger boom stick.

 

[boredaf]

After tons of Soviet/Russian tanks that have been taken out by FPV drones by dropped munitions, an Israeli Merkava tank has also been taken out by one.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1710589992026730609

I hope our engineers have been taking some serious notes.

 

[Era_shield]

After tons of Soviet/Russian tanks that have been taken out by FPV drones by dropped munitions, an Israeli Merkava tank has also been taken out by one.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1710589992026730609

I hope our engineers have been taking some serious notes.

The Altay was designed from the beginning to have much better protection from top-down attacks than those tanks. But it would still be good to put an extra radar panel on the roof facing upward and replace the commander's gun with something that can elevate 90+ degrees. Current drone mounted AT munitions wouldn't be able to penetrate Altay's roof but heavier ones in the future might.

 

[Afif]

Well, you can only take too many serious notes to implement on a single platform. (No matter how advanced it is)

I imagine making effective APS that can cover 90 degree angle would be more difficult. But even when they are able to make it, two of the the most common way to kill tank remain effective. Artillery and mines.

When it comes to artillery, MRSI (multiple roudn simultaneous impact) is very likely to overrun any APS system.

And even without MRSI, any 155mm artillery shell packs 8.5-10.5kg TNT, meaning even when APS is able to intercept a supersonic artillery round in proximity, it's very powerful blast fragmentation would likely to knock out the electronics on top of tank turret (APS radar, gunner and commander sights, laser warning system)

Here is a representation by BAE System. You can observe that, if one can see the enemy first, then within seconds with just few 40mm smart air burst rounds, he can completely blind a tank and knock out its APS. (Faster than human operator can react) Even though it is technically very much possible, it still has more risk to failure in facing tanks like that in close combat.

However, a basic 155mm artillery shell even while being intercepted can achieve that with more certainty.
(Becuase APS cannot stop the powerful blast fragmentation effect)

Even better, at first enemy can fire a cluster shell with time/proximity fuze, which would almost garunteee killing the electronics on top of the turret, Followed by a regular shell.

While advanced systems like APS and right procedures and tactics (for effective combined arms) can relatively minimize the vulnerabilities, there are still practical ways to kill a tank equipped with 90 degree APS.

Bottom line is, technology cannot replace the mass. Turkish army would needs numbers along with the qualitative edge.


Note- By killing a tank I mean, neutralizing it and putting it out of commission, not necessarily penetrating the armor and killing its crews.