TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Huelague]

Why am I not surprised.

Fleeced again!

German weapons are overrated.

 

[boredaf]

Let's not rewrite history and pretend like Germans somehow conned us. We tested all available tanks and decided on Leopards, nobody forced us to choose them. All the countries involved would've been happy to sell us tanks at the time and Germany was the one we chose.

 

[Bogeyman]

Over the years we've heard some chatter that comparing penetrated tanks, Leo2 did give a better chance of survival to the crew. M60T is armored to the brim with NERAs but when they're penetrated, you die. Not always the same case with Leo2. It has far greater crew survivability.

Germany didn't fleece anyone, we paid for and bought 30 year old Leo2A4s in 2007. Then waited 6 years to start even contemplating about modernizing them to NGs. Our German supported NG mod got embargoed after 2016 and we had to use near unarmored tanks against modern ATGMs in Syria. BMC was to start modernizing Leo2A4s in 2019. 4 years have passed. In a separate Roketsan package, all we have to show for are 40 T1s.

When Lancet kamikaze drones destroyed the tank in the Leopard tanks, the ammunition exploded from the inside because there was no explosion door or insulation between the tank ammunition and the personnel.

Since KMW designed this tank in the 80s to fight hand-to-hand against the flood of Soviet armor in the Cold War, it did not prioritize developing a design that would rely on thick frontal armor and protect personnel from ammunition. Later, with the development of drone technology and ATGM systems, ammunition explosions against ammunition fired from above and from the environment became seriously lethal for personnel.



On this subject, I leave below images of the explosive doors and compartments of the Abrams Tank.

Although KMW took a series of measures to increase the thickness of the top armor in the versions after the Leopard 2A5, they still do not have a solution to completely isolate the ammunition from the crew. There are also those who say that the fuel in the additional fuel tanks for the Leopard 2, which was destroyed with the latest ammunition, burned due to ignition.
Because when the internal ammunition explodes, the armor largely shatters and the body opens. The damage to the hull of our tanks that were attacked by treacherous terrorists in Syria shows that the ammunition explodes from the inside and destroys the armor in ATGM attacks.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1667645664241545219

 

[Afif]

Unfortunately, Altay has the same interior design. They better stop using that compartment for ammo storage....( Like American did with Abrams)

 

[Chocopie]

View attachment 65608


Unfortunately, Altay has the same interior design. They better stop using that compartment for ammo storage....( Like American did with Abrams)

They apparently changed the hull storage in Altay T2 (according to WarThunder Forum, so no guarantee of credibility )

For 12 ammo rounds they installed 2 isolated storage compartments with 6 rounds left and right from driver. Blow out panels seen here:

Altay MBT for Turkish TT

ALTAY MBT (FINAL VERSION WHICH WILL BE ENTER THE SERVICE IN 23.04 2023) Overview: Turkiye’s Main Battle Tank project, Altay, has been a centre of concern for various reasons but making progress now. The BMC company, which became the target of criticism for a long time due to its foreign partnersh...

old-forum.warthunder.com

Leo 2, K1 & K2, Type 90 & Type 10, Challenger, Ariete and Leclerc all have non-isolated hull ammo racks.

But IMO that‘s not a main issue (most hit Leo 2 crews survived in Ukraine). The main issue to be solved is drone protection: enforced top armor, hard-kill APS and jamming against kamikaze drones.

 

[Chocopie]

Some German Leo fans („Sse best tank in sse wwörld, mein Lieber!“) say those pics were taken after Turkish F-16 bombed them to hinder capture. I don‘t know for sure. Maybe it‘s their way of coping

 

[Sanchez]

Some German Leo fans („Sse best tank in sse wwörld, mein Lieber!“) say those pics were taken after Turkish F-16 bombed them to hinder capture. I don‘t know for sure. Maybe it‘s their way of coping

This is the unofficial Turkish line as well. Tanks were left behind and then struck from air to stop their capture.

 

[Ryder]

Some German Leo fans („Sse best tank in sse wwörld, mein Lieber!“) say those pics were taken after Turkish F-16 bombed them to hinder capture. I don‘t know for sure. Maybe it‘s their way of coping

Fun fact.

Isis captured Russian sam missiles after they took Palmyra.

Russians asked the Americans to bomb the captured sams with their airforce.

Russians with another L. At least the Turks blew their own tanks so the terrorists dont use it.

 

[Chocopie]

This is the unofficial Turkish line as well. Tanks were left behind and then struck from air to stop their capture.

That might be true. The damage in the pic is severe. Afaik they were hit by Kornets/Iranian copies which are devastating ATGM before air bombing.
@Bogeyman thinks it‘s from front hull ammo explosion as he posted above.

Never seen such total destruction of Leo 2A4s with blown off turrets in Ukraine.

 

[Sanchez]

That might be true. The damage in the pics is severe. Afaik they were hit by Kornets/Iranian copies which are devastating ATGM before air bombing.

Never seen such total destruction of Leo 2A4s with blown off turrets in Ukraine.

There are no available after action reports to read about that day. What we know is that tanks were hit and immobilized, they had to be evacuated after tank borne SVBIEDs started coming from the fog, and later air force bombed them. We don't know if the damage they received earlier was repairable or not.

I'd think a Mk-82 does plenty damage to any armored target and forces secondary explosions anywhere it touches.

 

[Chocopie]

There are no available after action reports to read about that day. What we know is that tanks were hit and immobilized, they had to be evacuated after tank borne SVBIEDs started coming from the fog, and later air force bombed them. We don't know if the damage they received earlier was repairable or not.

I'd think a Mk-82 does plenty damage to any armored target and forces secondary explosions anywhere it touches.

Yes, it would be nice to know the grade of damage after the initial hits.

Leo 2 especially in its latest iteration 2A8 is a damned good MBT and a fine piece of German engineering. Not well suited for Korean terrain and tank doctrine.

Heavy armor and weight up to 70t is optimal for European terrain. My main gripe is the absurdly high price and low production rate.

 

[Saithan]

Anyone remembers Mammoth tanks from C&C, imagine that’s what’s going to roam on the fields with pretty much layered AD and firepower to rival Battleships.

 

[Huelague]

Let's not rewrite history and pretend like Germans somehow conned us. We tested all available tanks and decided on Leopards, nobody forced us to choose them. All the countries involved would've been happy to sell us tanks at the time and Germany was the one we chose.

And on the battlefield they highlightend as crap.

 

[boredaf]

And on the battlefield they highlightend as crap.

Maybe, but that is not on the Germans, it's on the officials that chose them, because as I said, we tried multiple tanks and decided on the Leopards.

 

[lLiberté]

I just can't comprehend this hate against the Leopard right now. Can we take a minute and accept the fact that Leopard was the best thing we could get at that time. Our tank inventory was incredibly obsolete up until we acquired Leopard 2A4 and our best tank was second-hand M60A3s. 2A4 acquisition and Sabra modernisations were emergency programs at that point.

It was 1980s when we last bought brand-new tank, Leopard 1A3T1, rest was used up M48s and M60s. Another point you seem to miss is that Land Forces Command had chance to trial competitors of Leopard 2A6EX in Tank 2000 Tender. In trials 2A6EX beat the competition by large margin, ommand witness how badly Leclerc and Yatağan performed and how problematic and expensive to maintain Abrams was. Sadly 2A6EX acquisition was never finalised and the closest think we could get after Tank 2000 was 2A4.

Acquisition of Leopard was no blind-purchase it was best bang for its buck and there were no other proper option (also it was easiest to acquire). 2A4 has been neglected for too much far too long, and we suffered its catastrophic results.

 

[Huelague]

Maybe, but that is not on the Germans, it's on the officials that chose them, because as I said, we tried multiple tanks and decided on the Leopards.

We made 'wrong' decision and Germany made wrong tanks.

 

[Huelague]

I just can't comprehend this hate against the Leopard right now. Can we take a minute and accept the fact that Leopard was the best thing we could get at that time

No. It was a 'political' decision. Not a military. Like our decision on Pakistan Mushshak.

 

[lLiberté]

No. It was a 'political' decision. Not a military. Like our decision on Pakistan Mushshak.

Arms industry and politics goes hand-in-hand, there's no denying that. What were the other options then ? I don't know much of Mushshak thing, so cannot make any comments.

 

[Sanchez]

No. It was a 'political' decision. Not a military. Like our decision on Pakistan Mushshak.

I mean, all arms procurements are political decisions. Still, Leo2 came out on top of all tests we ran and it was the best tank available for our needs. Original Altay was basically a Turkish Leopard 2A7. There were no other tanks we liked at the time, literally. K2 came much later and even then, K2 we chose is a heavily modified one to suit our needs.

 

[Huelague]

Maybe, but that is not on the Germans, it's on the officials that chose them, because as I said, we tried multiple tanks and decided on the Leopards.

Leo2A6 was also an option.