TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Merzifonlu]

Why do you think that?

I think so because of the storage and transportation problem. Hydrogen is the highest quality fuel. Hydrogen gives the most heat per unit mass. However, it is also the most difficult fuel to store and control. And Hydrogen is dangerous fuel because it is very explosive.

Hydrogen is the wet dream of the old Europeans and the even older Japanese who are too late to establish the battery ecosystem!

 

[TR_123456]

I think so because of the storage and transportation problem. Hydrogen is the highest quality fuel. Hydrogen gives the most heat per unit mass. However, it is also the most difficult fuel to store and control.

Hydrogen is the wet dream of the old Europeans and the even older Japanese who are too late to establish the battery ecosystem!

WEll,what do you think about this then?

The National Hydrogen Strategy

Germany has set itself ambitious energy and climate targets. By 2045, Germany wants to achieve greenhouse gas neutrality. To achieve these goals, there is need to significantly increase energy efficiency. Germany also needs to decarbonise its energy and raw material supply, which is still...

www.bmwk.de

 

[boredaf]

WEll,what do you think about this then?

The National Hydrogen Strategy

Germany has set itself ambitious energy and climate targets. By 2045, Germany wants to achieve greenhouse gas neutrality. To achieve these goals, there is need to significantly increase energy efficiency. Germany also needs to decarbonise its energy and raw material supply, which is still...

www.bmwk.de

That doesn't mention military and militaries love their fuel to be as safe as possible, hence why they have always loved diesel. A hydrogen fuelled tank would break the world turret tossing record when it is destroyed.

 

[Merzifonlu]

WEll,what do you think about this then?

The National Hydrogen Strategy

Germany has set itself ambitious energy and climate targets. By 2045, Germany wants to achieve greenhouse gas neutrality. To achieve these goals, there is need to significantly increase energy efficiency. Germany also needs to decarbonise its energy and raw material supply, which is still...

www.bmwk.de

This is complete nonsense. Green governments have done Germany great harm in two areas. The first is energy policy, the second is foreign policy. They closed nuclear power plants without presenting an alternative. They were late to the electric revolution. Now they are hoping for help from hydrogen.

Yet Germany was already mastering fuel cell technology in the 90s. If they had taken action in time, IMO they could have established an alternative ecosystem to China with metal oxide batteries. It was good for us, let's establish this alternative ecosystem.

 

[TR_123456]

That doesn't mention military and militaries love their fuel to be as safe as possible, hence why they have always loved diesel. A hydrogen fuelled tank would break the world turret tossing record when it is destroyed.

Isnt it as the same with the earlier gas tanks for cars,they made them better to not explode?
I'm sure they'll find ways to keep them safe,no?

 

[TR_123456]

This is complete nonsense. Green governments have done Germany great harm in two areas. The first is energy policy, the second is foreign policy. They closed nuclear power plants without presenting an alternative. They were late to the electric revolution. Now they are hoping for help from hydrogen.

Yet Germany was already mastering fuel cell technology in the 90s. If they had taken action in time, IMO they could have established an alternative ecosystem to China with metal oxide batteries. It was good for us, let's establish this alternative ecosystem.

They are also building Hydrogen transport lines(pipeline) from Africa(Algeria),you think thats bs?
I would say,Germany is preparing for big change.

 

[boredaf]

Isnt it as the same with the earlier gas tanks for cars,they made them better to not explode?
I'm sure they'll find ways to keep them safe,no?

But just as with cars, while they can improve safety without a doubt, they cannot guarantee a catastrophic failure won't happen, ever. I mean, one of the first tactics against tanks was to hit them where their fuel was stored. Would anyone be able to guarantee that it cannot happen again?

 

[TR_123456]

But just as with cars, while they can improve safety without a doubt, they cannot guarantee a catastrophic failure won't happen, ever. I mean, one of the first tactics against tanks was to hit them where their fuel was stored. Would anyone be able to guarantee that it cannot happen again?

There are always risks,a tank can also explode if you hit the ammunition.
I'm sure they'll find ways to make Hydrogen safe,just like with gas.

 

[TR_123456]

@boredaf @Merzifonlu @Sanchez and others,check this out.

Hydrogen Safety: Let's Clear the Air

When handled responsibly, green hydrogen is less dangerous than other flammable fuels that we rely on today. Moving forward, industry and government institutions must build on existing robust safety protocols and continue to make safety a key priority for investment...

www.nrdc.org

 

[boredaf]

There are always risks,a tank can also explode if you hit the ammunition.
I'm sure they'll find ways to make Hydrogen safe,just like with gas.

You're right that there are always risks, but you can mitigate them, specifically by not adding another weak point, imo. Tanks are already in a hard spot in trying to balance weight and speed and self defence; adding another complexity and a spot that would most likely need more armour than it does right now might not be worth it.

@boredaf @Merzifonlu @Sanchez and others,check this out.

Hydrogen Safety: Let's Clear the Air

When handled responsibly, green hydrogen is less dangerous than other flammable fuels that we rely on today. Moving forward, industry and government institutions must build on existing robust safety protocols and continue to make safety a key priority for investment...

www.nrdc.org

Like your other link, this is talking about its safety for civilian use, I don't think most of it applies to military. Also, it compares oxygen level needed for a fire with gasoline but not diesel because diesel is very comparable from what I can find, stacking the deck in favour of their argument. It might have uses in civilian vehicles mate, it might be the future, but getting shot at with ATGMs or even with thermite grenades is very different than driving a truck fuelled by hydrogen.

Edit: A source I was checking:

Hydrogen can ignite anywhere between 4 per cent and 74 per cent concentration, giving it the widest flammability range of any fuel. Hydrogen can also detonate into an explosion (where the flame travels at supersonic speed) at concentrations of 18 to 59 per cent. And it doesn’t need much of a spark. At its most flammable concentration, of 28 per cent, a tiny spark with just 0.02 millijoules of energy is enough to ignite the stuff. Its flame, which is invisible, propagates very quickly.

 

[Merzifonlu]

They are also building Hydrogen transport lines(pipeline) from Africa(Algeria),you think thats bs?
I would say,Germany is preparing for big change.

Yes, IMO this plans also BS. Germany is hoping for such utopian ideas because it cannot give up its investments in the internal combustion engine industry.

BTW, I would like to elaborate on the metal-oxide battery that I mentioned earlier. Although it is called a "battery", this device is actually a fuel cell. It produces energy by oxidizing alkali metals such as lithium, sodium, and calcium, which in their pure form cause the release of hydrogen when thrown into water.

Unlike fuel cells that burn alcohol or hydrogen, these can be recharged. Their energy density is also enormous. I think Germany should invest in this technology, not hydrogen.

 

[Chocopie]

Hyundai Rotem, South Korea‘s main tank producer, will develop a hydrogen fuel cell MBT til 2040.

First from diesel engines to a hybrid propulsion and lastly hydrogen fuel cells.

And Korea is by no means a latecomer in li-ion technology with renowned battery companies like Samsung SDI, LG Energy Solutions and SK Innovation.

Hyundai Rotem belongs to car giant Hyundai Motor Group (Hyundai/Kia) and they are confident to master hydrogen propulsion safely for military vehicles.

Hyundai Rotem to develop world's 1st hydrogen fuel-based tank: sources

Hyundai Rotem Co., a South Korean defense solutions company, has been working on developing the world's first hydrogen fuel-based tank for the military, industry sources said Wednesday. In collaboration with the Agency for Defense Development and other defense technology research institutes...

m.koreaherald.com

 

[TR_123456]

BTW, I would like to elaborate on the metal-oxide battery that I mentioned earlier

The best way would be to open a thread.

 

[Yasar_TR]

There are two drawbacks in a Hydrogen powered system:
1. Storage
Storage of Hydrogen needs to be in special canisters as it is one of the most volatile substances. It needs to be kept in liquid form. Hydrogen gas turns to liquid at minus 253 degrees Celsius. That alone is a drawback on it’s own.

2. Production
Best way to produce Hydrogen gas is through electrolysis. But you need to put in more energy, than the energy hydrogen would provide. So it would be an exercise that wouldn’t cover it’s cost. There is a common method of Carbon Monoxide chemically reacting with water under heat to produce Hydrogen. But it also releases Carbon Dioxide. Hence not environmentally friendly. Therefore, until we find a method of electrolysis that is economically viable like using Sun’s rays to have electrolysis, best way to produce hydrogen is still at large.
But there is another way to produce Hydrogen by extracting it from Hydrogen Sulphide. H2S is a by product of many industrial endeavours. it is non environmental and obnoxious gas. But it can be used to produce Hydrogen.
Guess what? After 200m depth, Black Sea bottom is covered in Hydrogen Sulphide.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235009808_Black_Sea_A_Hydrogen_Source

Human ingenuity can overcome both storage and production dilemmas. It is a matter of time. Major German, SKorean and Japanese automotive manufacturers like BMW, Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda have chosen to go the hydrogen route.
Future is Hydrogen.

 

[Ahlatshah]

And Hydrogen is dangerous fuel because it is very explosive.

First of all, hydrogen is not explosive, it is flammable. What explosive is immensely pressured tanks which have to be used to storage hydrogen and keep it liquified.

But you need to put in more energy, than the energy hydrogen would provide

That is so true. Using let's say 100 amount of different kind of energy can get you only 80-85 amount of hydrogen. It is ineffective and financially not viable right now. There are so many researchs going on and whoever find a way to produce hydrogen clean and efficiently first, would be new Arabia. That is how serious it is.

However, aviation sector is more ready to switch hydrogen energy than land transportation. There are a lot of scientific articles about it. The problem is more logistical than technical it seems. Sector as a whole simply is not ready. Supply chain, aircrafts and also airports all designed to be used gasoline. One cannot change all of these overnight. Still one of the biggest obstacle is: Oil lobby as you imagine

Btw, in civil aviation, long range hydrogen fueled aircrafts must be flying wing form because of the storage tanks. I dont know about the MBTs that would be use hydrogen remain as it is or need to be redesigned. Opinions are much appreciated.

Hydrogen | Airbus

At Airbus, we believe hydrogen is one of the most promising decarbonisation technologies currently under consideration. Discover why.

www.airbus.com

 

[boredaf]

First of all, hydrogen is not explosive, it is flammable. What explosive is immensely pressured tanks which have to be used to storage hydrogen and keep it liquified.

Hydrogen is explosive at concentration between 18% and 59%, as I wrote few comments above.

 

[Ripley]

Guys we got a new thread about hydrogen where we all can discuss industrial and military applications of substance. Just saying

Hydrogen Energy

What is hydrogen? Hydrogen is a clean alternative to methane, also known as natural gas. It's the most abundant chemical element, estimated to contribute 75% of the mass of the universe. Here on earth, vast numbers of hydrogen atoms are contained in water, plants...

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