India AMCA Program

[Zapper]

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[Raptor]

Latest design with DSI
Advanced cockpit of AMCA to be shown at aero India 2021 which will begin from 3 feb 2021
@Cabatli_53 @Test7 @anmdt @Nilgiri @Zapper

 

[Raptor]

View attachment 12641 View attachment 12642
Latest design with DSI
Advanced cockpit of AMCA to be shown at aero India 2021.
@Cabatli_53 @Test7 @anmdt @Nilgiri @Zapper

Note:Wings may not look like diamond shaped as it is smaller model

 

[Indos]

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Nice, many information that we have from this interview. So Tejas for Navy will be built as well, look like it will be twin engine.

 

[Zapper]

Nice, many information that we have from this interview. So Tejas for Navy will be built as well, look like it will be twin engine.

MWF (Tejas Mk-2) is a direct derivative of the LCA. Regarding TEDBF, there will be commonality of sub-systems like electronics, avionics, EW suite, radar, OGS etc and will be using the same engine as MWF (GE's F-414). What will change is the size & structure since TEDBF has a much larger airframe (larger than the Rafale but smaller than an F-18), folding wings and the whole baggage of naval variants like strengthened under-carriage, landing gear etc.

Also, ADA doesn't have experience developing twin engine fighters. There will be a learning curve since they're integrating twin F-414's onto the AMCA & TEDBF with overlap in their development timelines

 

[Zapper]

View attachment 12641 View attachment 12642
Latest design with DSI
Advanced cockpit of AMCA to be shown at aero India 2021 which will begin from 3 feb 2021
@Cabatli_53 @Test7 @anmdt @Nilgiri @Zapper

ADA program director in the above interview said some Hyderabad based company is building a full size model of the AMCA

 

[Zapper]

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[Raptor]

ADA program director in the above interview said some Hyderabad based company is building a full size model of the AMCA

Vem technologies ltd

 

[Raptor]

Render of AMCA

 

[Indos]

MWF (Tejas Mk-2) is a direct derivative of the LCA. Regarding TEDBF, there will be commonality of sub-systems like electronics, avionics, EW suite, radar, OGS etc and will be using the same engine as MWF (GE's F-414). What will change is the size & structure since TEDBF has a much larger airframe (larger than the Rafale but smaller than an F-18), folding wings and the whole baggage of naval variants like strengthened under-carriage, landing gear etc.

Also, ADA doesn't have experience developing twin engine fighters. There will be a learning curve since they're integrating twin F-414's onto the AMCA & TEDBF with overlap in their development timelines

The problem is that you dont have many aircraft carriers, do you want to make it only for couple Indian aircraft carrier ??? Unless you guys have huge future ambition to have at least 8 aircraft carriers, I dont think the project is visible.

 

[Nilgiri]

The problem is that you dont have many aircraft carriers, do you want to make it only for couple Indian aircraft carrier ??? Unless you guys have huge future ambition to have at least 8 aircraft carriers, I dont think the project is visible.

That is not really the issue as there is not huge (new) cost involvement to move LCA to TEDBF (compared to say cost + time for LCA from scratch)....especially relative to GDP and total wealth now (compared to the situation from say 1990 - 2010)

Essentially TEDBF is the N-LCA argument iterated to MWF size (for LCA AF next version i.e mk2). My argument was LCA itself should have always been MWF size from the get go....things would have gone lot quicker (and more flexbility and performance envelope w.r.t engines and aerodynamic and mission profile)

What would be the sinker (for TEDBF) is fiscal commitment by govt for foreign import like more naval Rafale or something like SH (which would basically sink the TEDBF requirement from onset).

India will have to make some pragmatic decisions here w.r.t costs and needs....and where to deploy its limited production and RnD capability best for its aerospace defence sector "ecosystem".

This depends on what AMCA will need heavily, should it be prioritised lot more (and skip some local iterations in between and just import those if opportunity cost dictates it).

That would need understanding of all the design teams and budgets involved etc....but there is not really a clarity on that right now. So let us see....we need some time to elapse on this all.

 

[Zapper]

The problem is that you dont have many aircraft carriers, do you want to make it only for couple Indian aircraft carrier ??? Unless you guys have huge future ambition to have at least 8 aircraft carriers, I dont think the project is visible.

In addition to Nilgiri's post, the Indian Navy currently operates 45 Mig-29Ks, 26 of which are deployed on INS Vikramaditya at all times. IN currently has a requirement of 54 fighter jets, 40 of which will be operated from INS Vikrant which has recently completed basin trails. While the 3rd AC is on hold since IN's funds have been prioritized to build and induct more subs, there is definitely a high possibility to go for another AC 10yrs down the lane. IN always wanted 3 AC's with the intention that 2 will be always operational on our eastern n western coasts while one will be in maintenance/refits.

Also, IN operates fighter jets from land which is why longer range n endurance are a prime requirement which will be fulfilled by the TEDBF. Again, I'd prefer pumping those funds to develop a N-AMCA instead of TEDBF since the times lines are the same

 

[Indos]

In addition to Nilgiri's post, the Indian Navy currently operates 45 Mig-29Ks, 26 of which are deployed on INS Vikramaditya at all times. IN currently has a requirement of 54 fighter jets, 40 of which will be operated from INS Vikrant which has recently completed basin trails. While the 3rd AC is on hold since IN's funds have been prioritized to build and induct more subs, there is definitely a high possibility to go for another AC 10yrs down the lane. IN always wanted 3 AC's with the intention that 2 will be always operational on our eastern n western coasts while one will be in maintenance/refits.

Also, IN operates fighter jets from land which is why longer range n endurance are a prime requirement which will be fulfilled by the TEDBF. Again, I'd prefer pumping those funds to develop a N-AMCA instead of TEDBF since the times lines are the same

What will be AMCA engine ? There is no mention in GE about possible F 414 being used for AMCA.

F414 Engine

The U.S. Navy has used the F414 engine to power their forces for over 30 years. Discover more about the advanced and versatile F414 engine with GE Aerospace.

www.geaviation.com

 

[Nilgiri]

What will be AMCA engine ? There is no mention in GE about possible F 414 being used for AMCA.

F414 Engine

The U.S. Navy has used the F414 engine to power their forces for over 30 years. Discover more about the advanced and versatile F414 engine with GE Aerospace.

www.geaviation.com

It will appear there once its officially picked. But it will be GE-414.

 

[Indos]

It will appear there once its officially picked. But it will be GE-414.

Bro, do you know AMCA program estimation cost (development cost) ? Please provide credible link, thanks.

 

[Zapper]

What will be AMCA engine ? There is no mention in GE about possible F 414 being used for AMCA.

F414 Engine

The U.S. Navy has used the F414 engine to power their forces for over 30 years. Discover more about the advanced and versatile F414 engine with GE Aerospace.

www.geaviation.com

The initial versions will definitely use F-414. Though our Kaveri engine project was stalled due to technical difficulties, recent reports show that it is likely to be revived with French assistance. You never know how relations with the US may turn out, particularly given our S-400 deal which may cease engines and spare parts delivery from the US.

Though we have backup options from Safran, it's always good to develop our own given we have multiple fighter jet projects in the pipeline. ADA is not keen on integrating a Russian engine since their operational lifespan is less compared to their western counterparts and are maintenance heavy

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...cial&utm_campaign=socialsharebuttons&from=mdr

 

[Zapper]

Bro, do you know AMCA program estimation cost (development cost) ? Please provide credible link, thanks.

Rs. 400cr ($500mn) has been sanctioned for the design phase of AMCA back in 2018. The final design of the exterior airframe has been frozen after going through several iterations with the IAF. Hyderabad based VEM technologies is building a full size model of AMCA's finalized design. As mentioned in the videos above, ADA is developing detailed designs

Currently, ADA is seeking Rs.8000-9000cr ($1-1.5bn approx) to develop 2 technology demonstrators and 7 prototypes.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...stealth-jet/articleshow/71798166.cms?from=mdr

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1372106071972573186

India’s indigenous 5th gen fighter programme, AMCA is likely to get approved by the MoD in Q2 21, with design, development and first prototypes set to cost around 15,000 cr. The first 2 squadrons will consist of Mk1 versions of AMCA. The remaining 4 will be raised with a more adv Mk-2 version with a raft of 6th-generation technologies.

15,000 crore INR ~ 2 billion USD

@Indos @Cabatli_53 @Kartal1 @anmdt @Combat-Master @Test7 @Zapper @Paro @Vergennes @500 @T-123456 @AlphaMike @crixus @Raptor @Gautam @Saithan et al.

It looks like 6 squadrons is first commitment with later squadrons being a stepping stone for 6th gen.

Then I guess they will evaluate progress of 6th gen by then (2030s decade) to either iterate AMCA into full 6th gen or create another project for that then.

Hence why only 120 AMCA committed to now, though cost/unit is also part of it I would imagine....hence offering window for 4.5 gen like MWF downroad too to make up more bulk.

 

[Test7]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1372106071972573186

India’s indigenous 5th gen fighter programme, AMCA is likely to get approved by the MoD in Q2 21, with design, development and first prototypes set to cost around 15,000 cr. The first 2 squadrons will consist of Mk1 versions of AMCA. The remaining 4 will be raised with a more adv Mk-2 version with a raft of 6th-generation technologies.

15,000 crore INR ~ 2 billion USD

@Indos @Cabatli_53 @Kartal1 @anmdt @Combat-Master @Test7 @Zapper @Paro @Vergennes @500 @T-123456 @AlphaMike @crixus @Raptor @Gautam @Saithan et al.

It looks like 6 squadrons is first commitment with later squadrons being a stepping stone for 6th gen.

Then I guess they will evaluate progress of 6th gen by then (2030s decade) to either iterate AMCA into full 6th gen or create another project for that then.

Hence why only 120 AMCA committed to now, though cost/unit is also part of it I would imagine....hence offering window for 4.5 gen like MWF downroad too to make up more bulk.

I also read a news like

India’s New Aircraft Carrier, Vikrant, May Get 5th-Generation Fighter​

The air wing of the Indian Navy's latest carrier, INS Vikrant, could include a new indigenous fighter plane. The TEDBF (Twin Engine deck Based Fighter) is the natural successor to India's Light Combat aircraft (LCA), the Tejas. If it is flown it will be inherently better suited to the Indian Navy's needs. But in the short term it faces competition from off-the-shelf Western types, notably the Super Hornet and the Rafale.​

Due to its twin-engine configuration the aircraft is larger than the Naval Tejas, yet slightly smaller than the Fulcrum. Its physical dimensions, with a wingspan of 11.2 meters and length of 16.2 meters, are compact. And the width is reduced further to 7.6m with the wings folded. The maximum take-off weight is likely to be similar to the Fulcrum however.

 

[Raptor]

I also read a news like

India’s New Aircraft Carrier, Vikrant, May Get 5th-Generation Fighter​

The air wing of the Indian Navy's latest carrier, INS Vikrant, could include a new indigenous fighter plane. The TEDBF (Twin Engine deck Based Fighter) is the natural successor to India's Light Combat aircraft (LCA), the Tejas. If it is flown it will be inherently better suited to the Indian Navy's needs. But in the short term it faces competition from off-the-shelf Western types, notably the Super Hornet and the Rafale.​

Due to its twin-engine configuration the aircraft is larger than the Naval Tejas, yet slightly smaller than the Fulcrum. Its physical dimensions, with a wingspan of 11.2 meters and length of 16.2 meters, are compact. And the width is reduced further to 7.6m with the wings folded. The maximum take-off weight is likely to be similar to the Fulcrum however.

View attachment 16167

The news is incorrect.
TEDBF isn't a 5 gen aircraft
It's more like 4.5++ gen
Rafale class