TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[Yasar_TR]

In long term, Gökbey not only isn't ready but it isn't even enough and T925 exist only on paper yet, we can't wait for them. We should've made a deal for AgustWestland's Merlin and AW149 ages ago and started production already at least we could've had 8 and 15 tonne helicopters (for TF2000) in production already.

Good point. But anything bought from anbroad other than Seahawk means more hassle than it is worth. We are used to maintaining Seahawks. A new foreign aircraft will mean new maintenance facilities and teams; or depending on manufacturer based maintenance. It may be cheaper for the short term to purchase a handful of Seahawks than buying Merlins whose engines are French/Safran built. Hopefully local T925 will come in before we need new heliciopters.

 

[boredaf]

Good point. But anything bought from anbroad other than Seahawk means more hassle than it is worth. We are used to maintaining Seahawks. A new foreign aircraft will mean new maintenance facilities and teams; or depending on manufacturer based maintenance. It may be cheaper for the short term to purchase a handful of Seahawks than buying Merlins whose engines are French/Safran built. Hopefully local T925 will come in before we need new heliciopters.

That's true but if we can't or won't get Seahawks just waiting for T925 to not just be built but get navalized as well as waiting for Gökbey to be navalized as well while being short on helicopters is insane. We are short right now, and we are building more ships already; we are going to end up pulling more helicopters from the army and putting them in conditions they are not made for on the ships.

There is a difference between ideal world and reality we live in and we fucked ourselves in the real world while chasing an ideal.

 

[Sanchez]

Some of the prospective ships of the fleet needing Seahawks:

Seahawk is a great platform, but the version we have is a very specialized variant in ASW. Americans also employ MH-60S in general utility variant as well. T625N will fill that role. in general utility, SAR, VERTREP etc. I wrote about the navy's rotorwing needs last year:

Basic maths, navy currently have 8 Gabyas, 6+2 Mekos(4 only can carry 212s), 1 İstif, 4 Adas, Ufuk, 5 LSTs without hangars, Derya(with space for 1+2) 4 oilers and 3 sub rescue ships without hangars. That's a total of 31 hangar spaces and 12 ships without hangars. As well as Anadolu with up to 30 helicopters. Its light load we've seen so far in exercises is 3 AH-1Ws, 3 Cougars and 2-3 Seahawks, i'll take it as a simple 10. So that's 43 heli spots+Anadolu. We have 23 Seahawks, 4 212s and 8 AH-1Ws. Of course, even in a perfect world, helicopter/ship number will not be 1/1. All these aircraft are land based when not deployed, not ship based.

With the planned navy enlargement program, we will lose the 4 older Mekos, but will add 7 İstifs and 10 OPVs in a decade or so, increasing our hangar size to 43 from 31 on our surface combatants. T625N could be used on all OPVs, and in all kinds of general purpose missions. They can be deployed on oilers for VERTREP missions, used in anti piracy missions on OPVs, can carry strike teams, missiles, torpedos, sonobuoys.

But anything bought from anbroad other than Seahawk means more hassle than it is worth.

We need 12+ ton big helis to carry the marines on Anadolu, at least 5-6.

 

[Ripley]

Good point. But anything bought from anbroad other than Seahawk means more hassle than it is worth. We are used to maintaining Seahawks. A new foreign aircraft will mean new maintenance facilities and teams; or depending on manufacturer based maintenance. It may be cheaper for the short term to purchase a handful of Seahawks than buying Merlins whose engines are French/Safran built. Hopefully local T925 will come in before we need new heliciopters.

@Yasar_TR abi, it’s true that a foreign supplier will be a logistical nightmare scenario. That’s why we were so hopeful for a large workhorse of a indigenous heli to serve in all branches.
But there’s also the fact that TN desperately needs a sizable airframe that would be carrying out logistical support duties as well as open sea ASW, EW and various fleet missions.
As you broke down in your list, there will be large hull vessels such as TF2000, together with TCG Anadolu, suitable for vertical tactical lifting and quick reaction duties and deployment of marines and special forces.

T925, however, went through so many design changes that, I’d rather call it change of heart at this point. I don’t know, I can’t help but get the impression that decision makers gave up on a hunk of a naval heli, a workhorse and rather confined the design into a medium - heavy army utility helicopter. The last design change was to reduce it to a 10-12 ton and was supposed to fly in 2025.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Wrong. Chinese z-9 Naval heli with 4 ton mtow is able to carry torpedoes. Naval Gokbey could easily carry torpedoes with 6 ton mtow.

How do you know it is wrong? Think before you rudely write “wrong”.

The T625 Gökbey helicopter is basically a light weight multi-purpose utility and transport aircraft and is designed specifically for that purpose. It is not designed or equipped to carry the Orka torpedoes.

The only light torpedo we have is still in development and is called ORKA. It is 285cm long 324mm in diameter and is 225kg in weight. There is no way for T625 to physically carry this with its release mechanism, under belly. (it has no wings)
Let us know how you will fit release mechanism and the 3m long 32.4cm diameter torpedo under that belly?

 

[HKY]

No. Gokbey with its 6 ton mtow enters mid-weight, general purpose heli category. And I did not say it has to carry torpedo under its belly. I say it could carry torpedoes with wingkits.

 

[Yasar_TR]

No. Gokbey with its 6 ton mtow enters mid-weight

Iam afraid it doesn’t. It is still lightweight.
It still has 2 x CTS800 engines that powers our light attack helicopter. Its lift capacity is not more than that. MTOW may be given as 6tons. But it is still a 5000kg helicopter. It has 2 x 1400HP engines.
Mid weight is a heli like Seahawk. It has a MTOW of 10ton . But operationally it is 8000kg .

I would like to see where you will fit wing kits. Besides, If you start changing the construction of this heli then it is no longer Gokbey.

 

[Quasar]

it was 2021... TEI General Manager Prof. Dr. Mahmut Faruk Akşit stated that

Our TS1400 engine, which we developed for the Gökbey helicopter, is a civilian engine. That's the design of the project. There are differences between a civilian and a military engine. Their power classes are the same, and they occupy almost the same space. Our engine is actually – what we call form fit – in a class that can fit inside and power the Atak helicopter, but it doesn't have military features. This conversion needs to be done, a military engine needs to be derived from the TS1400. We have submitted our project proposal for this. We haven't signed it yet, but as soon as our government gives us this task, we will quickly create a military derivative of this engine.”

@Yasar_TR @Sanchez or others do you have any info about the project for conversion of TS1400 to a military engine?

all we know is civil certification is almost done..

 

[Ripley]

it was 2021... TEI General Manager Prof. Dr. Mahmut Faruk Akşit stated that

Our TS1400 engine, which we developed for the Gökbey helicopter, is a civilian engine. That's the design of the project. There are differences between a civilian and a military engine. Their power classes are the same, and they occupy almost the same space. Our engine is actually – what we call form fit – in a class that can fit inside and power the Atak helicopter, but it doesn't have military features. This conversion needs to be done, a military engine needs to be derived from the TS1400. We have submitted our project proposal for this. We haven't signed it yet, but as soon as our government gives us this task, we will quickly create a military derivative of this engine.”

@Yasar_TR @Sanchez or others do you have any info about the project for conversion of TS1400 to a military engine?

all we know is civil certification is almost done..

AFAIK, for military use of an engine you don’t need any certification or civilian one for that matter. If an engine meets the designer’s goals and satisfies the user’s requirements, than that engine is ready for production. So, in that sense TS1400 was an engine ready for military use from the get - go.

 

[Quasar]

AFAIK, for military use of an engine you don’t need any certification or civilian one for that matter. If an engine meets the designer’s goals and satisfies the user’s requirements, than that engine is ready for production. So, in that sense TS1400 was an engine ready for military use from the get - go.

Mostly I agree bro definitly military engine does not need any certification however, I have objection to '' TS1400 was an engine ready for military use from the get - go.'' part!

Since Mahmut Akşit definitly and clearly stated that ''it (TS 1400) is a civilian engine....... There are differences between a civilian and a military engine. ............it doesn't have military features. This conversion needs to be done, a military engine needs to be derived from the TS1400. We have submitted our project proposal for this. We haven't signed it yet, but as soon as our government gives us this task, we will quickly create a military derivative of this engine.”

getting Gökbey navalized is almost synonymous with creating a military derivative of TS1400 but sure I can be wrong!

Or we can have Gökbey our buy any available civilian helicopter from market, paint it and use it for the navy

just sarcasm.. he was talking about ATAK

https://www.savunmasanayi.org/devle...-atak-helikoptere-yerli-motor-gelistirecegiz/

 

[Ripley]

Mostly I agree bro definitly military engine does not need any certification however, I have objection to '' TS1400 was an engine ready for military use from the get - go.'' part!

i wonder if there’s a confusion of engine classifications here ‘cause I didn’t classify it as a military engine per se. I said it would have been ready for military use as long as it met the requirements of the operator which in our case, The Turkish Armed Forces