TR Attack & Utility Helicopter Programs

[Yasar_TR]

The 'missing piece' in Türkiye's naval puzzle: Rotary-wing aircrafts​

The 'missing piece' in Türkiye's naval puzzle: Rotary-wing aircrafts - Türkiye Today

Türkiye's naval ambitions demand more helicopters, as defense analysts examine the challenges and domestic solutions shaping naval aviation's future

www.turkiyetoday.com

The first paragraph alone is more than enough to display insufficient and even neglected situation of Turkish Navy’s rotary wing fleet.

“The Turkish Navy's fleet of 24 Sikorsky S-70B Seahawk helicopters is facing mounting operational pressure as Ankara pursues a relatively aggressive naval expansion program, which includes at least 31 warships currently under construction.”

And below are some paragraphs that breakdown our missing and much needed mission profiles, capabilities for our envisioned fleet operations.

"In the future, when Turkish Navy task groups conduct operations from Anadolu at extended distances and without the support of friendly air bases, they will need their own AEW&C systems," Yaylali added.

"The most plausible solution for this requirement is a ship-based AEW&C system carried by an unmanned aerial vehicle specifically designed for this mission," Yaylali stated, adding that he is not aware of whether any work is currently underway in this area.

We’re too slow, lagging behind every naval operational requirements but we really can’t afford to be too late.

This is a very sore point!
If you check the inventory of TCG Anadolu, it can have a complement of 10 to 12 Seahawks. But for core operations it has got to have at least 2 Seahawks.
For ASW operations there are AB212 helicopters that are also sea worthy. But there may be only 4 of these left. And for attack helicopters that can reside on Anadolu, we have the 49 years old Super Cobra helicopters transferred from Army.

Some of the prospective ships of the fleet needing Seahawks:

4 x Barbaros,
4 x Gabya, (with İstif coming only 4 may stay operational)
8 x İstif,
4 x Ada,
10 x Hisar,
2 x Bayraktar,
2 x Anadolu

34 Seahawks or similar will be needed. We have 24 in inventory.
Seahawk is a 10ton class helicopter with operational weight being in excess of 8 tons.
The Gokbey order of 57 units placed by the Turkish navy, if going to be navalised (which by the way not an easy task),will only be useful for light duties as it is a 6 ton class craft. Where as a Seahawk has the capacity to launch an Orka light torpedo, a Gokbey would not be able to do that.
Buying new Seahawks are an expensive exercise. Especially nowadays. So local production is the correct route to take.

 

[boredaf]

So local production is the correct route to take.

In long term, Gökbey not only isn't ready but it isn't even enough and T925 exist only on paper yet, we can't wait for them. We should've made a deal for AgustWestland's Merlin and AW149 ages ago and started production already at least we could've had 8 and 15 tonne helicopters (for TF2000) in production already.

 

[Quasar]

This is a very sore point!
If you check the inventory of TCG Anadolu, it can have a complement of 10 to 12 Seahawks. But for core operations it has got to have at least 2 Seahawks.
For ASW operations there are AB212 helicopters that are also sea worthy. But there may be only 4 of these left. And for attack helicopters that can reside on Anadolu, we have the 49 years old Super Cobra helicopters transferred from Army.

Some of the prospective ships of the fleet needing Seahawks:

4 x Barbaros,
4 x Gabya, (with İstif coming only 4 may stay operational)
8 x İstif,
4 x Ada,
10 x Hisar,
2 x Bayraktar,
2 x Anadolu

34 Seahawks or similar will be needed. We have 24 in inventory.
Seahawk is a 10ton class helicopter with operational weight being in excess of 8 tons.
The Gokbey order of 57 units placed by the Turkish navy, if going to be navalised (which by the way not an easy task),is will only be useful for light duties as it is a 6 ton class craft. Where as a Seahawk has the capacity to launch an Orka light torpedo, a Gokbey would not be able to do that.
Buying new Seahawks are an expensive exercise. Especially nowadays. So local production is the correct route to take.

eventhough it is quite impressive, flight readiness and availability rate of Seahawks should also be taken into consideration ,,,, 1 or 2 Seahawks can always be missing,

10 x Hisar and 2 x Bayraktar can utilize Gökbey ? And Seahawks for Barbaros, Gabya, İstif, Ada and Anadolu....? but defintly this is at best a short term solution.

@Anmdt there supposed to be a dipping sonar tested on Gökbey?

 

[HKY]

This is a very sore point!
If you check the inventory of TCG Anadolu, it can have a complement of 10 to 12 Seahawks. But for core operations it has got to have at least 2 Seahawks.
For ASW operations there are AB212 helicopters that are also sea worthy. But there may be only 4 of these left. And for attack helicopters that can reside on Anadolu, we have the 49 years old Super Cobra helicopters transferred from Army.

Some of the prospective ships of the fleet needing Seahawks:

4 x Barbaros,
4 x Gabya, (with İstif coming only 4 may stay operational)
8 x İstif,
4 x Ada,
10 x Hisar,
2 x Bayraktar,
2 x Anadolu

34 Seahawks or similar will be needed. We have 24 in inventory.
Seahawk is a 10ton class helicopter with operational weight being in excess of 8 tons.
The Gokbey order of 57 units placed by the Turkish navy, if going to be navalised (which by the way not an easy task),is will only be useful for light duties as it is a 6 ton class craft. Where as a Seahawk has the capacity to launch an Orka light torpedo, a Gokbey would not be able to do that.
Buying new Seahawks are an expensive exercise. Especially nowadays. So local production is the correct route to take.

Wrong. Chinese z-9 Naval heli with 4 ton mtow is able to carry torpedoes. Naval Gokbey could easily carry torpedoes with 6 ton mtow.

 

[Yasar_TR]

In long term, Gökbey not only isn't ready but it isn't even enough and T925 exist only on paper yet, we can't wait for them. We should've made a deal for AgustWestland's Merlin and AW149 ages ago and started production already at least we could've had 8 and 15 tonne helicopters (for TF2000) in production already.

Good point. But anything bought from anbroad other than Seahawk means more hassle than it is worth. We are used to maintaining Seahawks. A new foreign aircraft will mean new maintenance facilities and teams; or depending on manufacturer based maintenance. It may be cheaper for the short term to purchase a handful of Seahawks than buying Merlins whose engines are French/Safran built. Hopefully local T925 will come in before we need new heliciopters.

 

[boredaf]

Good point. But anything bought from anbroad other than Seahawk means more hassle than it is worth. We are used to maintaining Seahawks. A new foreign aircraft will mean new maintenance facilities and teams; or depending on manufacturer based maintenance. It may be cheaper for the short term to purchase a handful of Seahawks than buying Merlins whose engines are French/Safran built. Hopefully local T925 will come in before we need new heliciopters.

That's true but if we can't or won't get Seahawks just waiting for T925 to not just be built but get navalized as well as waiting for Gökbey to be navalized as well while being short on helicopters is insane. We are short right now, and we are building more ships already; we are going to end up pulling more helicopters from the army and putting them in conditions they are not made for on the ships.

There is a difference between ideal world and reality we live in and we fucked ourselves in the real world while chasing an ideal.

 

[Sanchez]

Some of the prospective ships of the fleet needing Seahawks:

Seahawk is a great platform, but the version we have is a very specialized variant in ASW. Americans also employ MH-60S in general utility variant as well. T625N will fill that role. in general utility, SAR, VERTREP etc. I wrote about the navy's rotorwing needs last year:

Basic maths, navy currently have 8 Gabyas, 6+2 Mekos(4 only can carry 212s), 1 İstif, 4 Adas, Ufuk, 5 LSTs without hangars, Derya(with space for 1+2) 4 oilers and 3 sub rescue ships without hangars. That's a total of 31 hangar spaces and 12 ships without hangars. As well as Anadolu with up to 30 helicopters. Its light load we've seen so far in exercises is 3 AH-1Ws, 3 Cougars and 2-3 Seahawks, i'll take it as a simple 10. So that's 43 heli spots+Anadolu. We have 23 Seahawks, 4 212s and 8 AH-1Ws. Of course, even in a perfect world, helicopter/ship number will not be 1/1. All these aircraft are land based when not deployed, not ship based.

With the planned navy enlargement program, we will lose the 4 older Mekos, but will add 7 İstifs and 10 OPVs in a decade or so, increasing our hangar size to 43 from 31 on our surface combatants. T625N could be used on all OPVs, and in all kinds of general purpose missions. They can be deployed on oilers for VERTREP missions, used in anti piracy missions on OPVs, can carry strike teams, missiles, torpedos, sonobuoys.

But anything bought from anbroad other than Seahawk means more hassle than it is worth.

We need 12+ ton big helis to carry the marines on Anadolu, at least 5-6.

 

[Ripley]

Good point. But anything bought from anbroad other than Seahawk means more hassle than it is worth. We are used to maintaining Seahawks. A new foreign aircraft will mean new maintenance facilities and teams; or depending on manufacturer based maintenance. It may be cheaper for the short term to purchase a handful of Seahawks than buying Merlins whose engines are French/Safran built. Hopefully local T925 will come in before we need new heliciopters.

@Yasar_TR abi, it’s true that a foreign supplier will be a logistical nightmare scenario. That’s why we were so hopeful for a large workhorse of a indigenous heli to serve in all branches.
But there’s also the fact that TN desperately needs a sizable airframe that would be carrying out logistical support duties as well as open sea ASW, EW and various fleet missions.
As you broke down in your list, there will be large hull vessels such as TF2000, together with TCG Anadolu, suitable for vertical tactical lifting and quick reaction duties and deployment of marines and special forces.

T925, however, went through so many design changes that, I’d rather call it change of heart at this point. I don’t know, I can’t help but get the impression that decision makers gave up on a hunk of a naval heli, a workhorse and rather confined the design into a medium - heavy army utility helicopter. The last design change was to reduce it to a 10-12 ton and was supposed to fly in 2025.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Wrong. Chinese z-9 Naval heli with 4 ton mtow is able to carry torpedoes. Naval Gokbey could easily carry torpedoes with 6 ton mtow.

How do you know it is wrong? Think before you rudely write “wrong”.

The T625 Gökbey helicopter is basically a light weight multi-purpose utility and transport aircraft and is designed specifically for that purpose. It is not designed or equipped to carry the Orka torpedoes.

The only light torpedo we have is still in development and is called ORKA. It is 285cm long 324mm in diameter and is 225kg in weight. There is no way for T625 to physically carry this with its release mechanism, under belly. (it has no wings)
Let us know how you will fit release mechanism and the 3m long 32.4cm diameter torpedo under that belly?

 

[HKY]

No. Gokbey with its 6 ton mtow enters mid-weight, general purpose heli category. And I did not say it has to carry torpedo under its belly. I say it could carry torpedoes with wingkits.

 

[Yasar_TR]

No. Gokbey with its 6 ton mtow enters mid-weight

Iam afraid it doesn’t. It is still lightweight.
It still has 2 x CTS800 engines that powers our light attack helicopter. Its lift capacity is not more than that. MTOW may be given as 6tons. But it is still a 5000kg helicopter. It has 2 x 1400HP engines.
Mid weight is a heli like Seahawk. It has a MTOW of 10ton . But operationally it is 8000kg .

I would like to see where you will fit wing kits. Besides, If you start changing the construction of this heli then it is no longer Gokbey.

 

[Quasar]

it was 2021... TEI General Manager Prof. Dr. Mahmut Faruk Akşit stated that

Our TS1400 engine, which we developed for the Gökbey helicopter, is a civilian engine. That's the design of the project. There are differences between a civilian and a military engine. Their power classes are the same, and they occupy almost the same space. Our engine is actually – what we call form fit – in a class that can fit inside and power the Atak helicopter, but it doesn't have military features. This conversion needs to be done, a military engine needs to be derived from the TS1400. We have submitted our project proposal for this. We haven't signed it yet, but as soon as our government gives us this task, we will quickly create a military derivative of this engine.”

@Yasar_TR @Sanchez or others do you have any info about the project for conversion of TS1400 to a military engine?

all we know is civil certification is almost done..

 

[Ripley]

it was 2021... TEI General Manager Prof. Dr. Mahmut Faruk Akşit stated that

Our TS1400 engine, which we developed for the Gökbey helicopter, is a civilian engine. That's the design of the project. There are differences between a civilian and a military engine. Their power classes are the same, and they occupy almost the same space. Our engine is actually – what we call form fit – in a class that can fit inside and power the Atak helicopter, but it doesn't have military features. This conversion needs to be done, a military engine needs to be derived from the TS1400. We have submitted our project proposal for this. We haven't signed it yet, but as soon as our government gives us this task, we will quickly create a military derivative of this engine.”

@Yasar_TR @Sanchez or others do you have any info about the project for conversion of TS1400 to a military engine?

all we know is civil certification is almost done..

AFAIK, for military use of an engine you don’t need any certification or civilian one for that matter. If an engine meets the designer’s goals and satisfies the user’s requirements, than that engine is ready for production. So, in that sense TS1400 was an engine ready for military use from the get - go.

 

[Quasar]

AFAIK, for military use of an engine you don’t need any certification or civilian one for that matter. If an engine meets the designer’s goals and satisfies the user’s requirements, than that engine is ready for production. So, in that sense TS1400 was an engine ready for military use from the get - go.

Mostly I agree bro definitly military engine does not need any certification however, I have objection to '' TS1400 was an engine ready for military use from the get - go.'' part!

Since Mahmut Akşit definitly and clearly stated that ''it (TS 1400) is a civilian engine....... There are differences between a civilian and a military engine. ............it doesn't have military features. This conversion needs to be done, a military engine needs to be derived from the TS1400. We have submitted our project proposal for this. We haven't signed it yet, but as soon as our government gives us this task, we will quickly create a military derivative of this engine.”

getting Gökbey navalized is almost synonymous with creating a military derivative of TS1400 but sure I can be wrong!

Or we can have Gökbey or buy any available civilian helicopter from market, paint it and use it for the navy

just sarcasm.. he was talking about ATAK

https://www.savunmasanayi.org/devle...-atak-helikoptere-yerli-motor-gelistirecegiz/

 

[Ripley]

Mostly I agree bro definitly military engine does not need any certification however, I have objection to '' TS1400 was an engine ready for military use from the get - go.'' part!

i wonder if there’s a confusion of engine classifications here ‘cause I didn’t classify it as a military engine per se. I said it would have been ready for military use as long as it met the requirements of the operator which in our case, The Turkish Armed Forces

 

[Yasar_TR]

Mostly I agree bro definitly military engine does not need any certification however, I have objection to '' TS1400 was an engine ready for military use from the get - go.'' part!

Since Mahmut Akşit definitly and clearly stated that ''it (TS 1400) is a civilian engine....... There are differences between a civilian and a military engine. ............it doesn't have military features. This conversion needs to be done, a military engine needs to be derived from the TS1400. We have submitted our project proposal for this. We haven't signed it yet, but as soon as our government gives us this task, we will quickly create a military derivative of this engine.”

getting Gökbey navalized is almost synonymous with creating a military derivative of TS1400 but sure I can be wrong!

Or we can have Gökbey our buy any available civilian helicopter from market, paint it and use it for the navy

just sarcasm.. he was talking about ATAK

https://www.savunmasanayi.org/devle...-atak-helikoptere-yerli-motor-gelistirecegiz/

The military version according to M. Aksit, would have certain capabilities that the civilian engine doesn’t have. For example we have all seen T-129 doing a somersault. Civil engined Atak couldn’t do that. Apparently it needs a specifically designed oil pump that keeps engine well lubricated during difficult manoeuvres.
It has to be remembered that when sharp climbs and rigorous turns are performed, the engine parts are subjected to extreme strains. Moving parts of the engine has to be tested to withstand to these beyond standard stresses.

If helicopter is stationed on a ship. The spray and air is full of corrosive salt. All open electronics have to be insulated and paint and parts have to be made and built to withstand this salty environment; as well as all mechanical parts being sturdy enough to withstand tough landing during heavy seas.

 

[Sanchez]

The T625 Gökbey helicopter is basically a light weight multi-purpose utility and transport aircraft and is designed specifically for that purpose. It is not designed or equipped to carry the Orka torpedoes.

The only light torpedo we have is still in development and is called ORKA. It is 285cm long 324mm in diameter and is 225kg in weight. There is no way for T625 to physically carry this with its release mechanism, under belly. (it has no wings)

Wildcat is a 6ton MTOW naval helicopter with 2 of the very similar CTS800-4N engines. It is deployed with one and was tested with 2 LWTs. First Wildcat here is carrying a Korean Blue Shark, larger and heavier than Orka. Stub wings are not really wings, they are just there to carry things; there's no reason why T625 shouldn't be able to modified into having them. T625 must be reimagined into a naval multimission helicopter; there's no other possible avenue where we aren't left with simply no helis.

Coupled with fixed wing and rotary drones carrying sonobuoys and other sensors, T625Ns would excel in ASW in hunter killer role.

Our Seahawks are tasked with many duties; they are basically used as utility helicopters most of the time, while being purpose built ASW platforms. T625 should be developed for at least 2 variants. For lighter general duty platforms to undertake SAR, VERTREP, carrying of personnel, as well as inserting marine special forces; and a more developed multi mission variant that can carry weapons with stub wings; torpedos, towable sonars, NLOS missiles, sonobuoy launchers. Current Wildcat can do all of this with its 2 CTS800s. T625N can do them with its two TS1400s 10 years later. Would the T625N basically be a new helicopter? Yes. Do we need it, very much so. Without even thinking of exports we require at least 20-25 T625Ns for the navy and at least 20 for the coast guard. 45 helicopters is more than there are naval Wildcats built, which was and still is a financial failure. But we still need it.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Wildcat is a 6ton MTOW naval helicopter with 2 of the very similar CTS800-4N engines. It is deployed with one and was tested with 2 LWTs. First Wildcat here is carrying a Korean Blue Shark, larger and heavier than Orka. Stub wings are not really wings, they are just there to carry things; there's no reason why T625 shouldn't be able to modified into having them. T625 must be reimagined into a naval multimission helicopter; there's no other possible avenue where we aren't left with simply no helis.

Coupled with fixed wing and rotary drones carrying sonobuoys and other sensors, T625Ns would excel in ASW in hunter killer role.

View attachment 78615

View attachment 78616

Our Seahawks are tasked with many duties; they are basically used as utility helicopters most of the time, while being purpose built ASW platforms. T625 should be developed for at least 2 variants. For lighter general duty platforms to undertake SAR, VERTREP, carrying of personnel, as well as inserting marine special forces; and a more developed multi mission variant that can carry weapons with stub wings; torpedos, towable sonars, NLOS missiles, sonobuoy launchers. Current Wildcat can do all of this with its 2 CTS800s. T625N can do them with its two TS1400s 10 years later. Would the T625N basically be a new helicopter? Yes. Do we need it, very much so. Without even thinking of exports we require at least 20-25 T625Ns for the navy and at least 20 for the coast guard. 45 helicopters is more than there are naval Wildcats built, which was and still is a financial failure. But we still need it.

View attachment 78617

A159 Wildcat, is a light weight multi purpose helicopter, purpose-built so that the outgoing A149 Lynx is replaced. It was built to carry out light duties.
There is a land forces version and a navalised navy version. It can carry up to 6 passengers or a 1 ton of payload.
The design is such that it can serve as light troop transport, battlefield utility, search and rescue, aerial reconnaissance plus for naval forces, in navalised form, (ASW), (ASuW), utility helicopter.

Gokbey is not suitable for the same duties, bar light utility, search and rescue and intelligence. It was built as a semi civilian helicopter.
A lot of design changes will have to be applied to create a wildcat out of the Gokbey. May be not 10 years, but not too far off that.

One has to remember that the more weight and outside payload you add to these helicopters, the more you are shortening it’s range and decreasing it’s performance level. So where as a Seahawk with its 2 x 2000HP class engines, can carry 3 torpedoes without a problem, a wildcat will have hard time carrying one. (Seahawk has 420Nm range where as naval Wildcat has 245Nm)

 

[mehmed beg]

Maybe AW101 Merlin? I just saw 2 of them overfly Central London.
I don't know what is the deal but I often see Chinooks , Merlins ,Wild Cats and even Apaches overfly very Centre of London

 

[TheInsider]

Take-off Power
TS-1400: 1470 shp (+%7,06)
CTS800-4AT: 1373 shp

Max Continues Power
TS-1400: 1400 shp (+%7,86)
CTS800-4AT: 1298 shp

30-second emergency power:
TS-1400: 1,660 shp official ( +%1,4) also tested @ 1740shp (+%6,3)
CTS800-4AT: 1637 shp.

In my opinion, it is possible to uprate the TS-1400 slightly (~50 shp, %3,5 of 1400 shp) for a potential naval variant.

Gökbey MTOW
6050kg (with CTS800-4AT)

Possible Gökbey Naval MTOW
6500kg (+%7,5, with a slightly uprated TS-1400 engine)

https://www.tei.com.tr/uploads/docs/1721215252_tei-ts1400-tr.pdf?1753112989