Azad Kashmir claim on Gilgit Baltistan

[Saithan]

Chide all you want, it still will not change the inevitability of what I state clearly.

You mean like how the future looks for Pakistan, if they don't change their way of governing ?

 

[VCheng]

You mean like how the future looks for Pakistan, if they don't change their way of governing ?

One of the things: "Pakistan is not immune to the misfortunes of prolonged misgovernance". Add to this overpopulation and its sinking rankings as a viable economy in the global arena with increasing competition for all kinds of resources and the future (or a lack thereof) is starkly clear.

However, please note that hope springs eternal.

(The last line is for you @T-123456 )

 

[Nilgiri]

No I think that EP (isn't that Bangladesh, why not call it that ?) issue is different now, also I think the rivers from Bangladesh could if ever channelled through pipes solve the water crises in Pakistan

https://jammukashmir.pscnotes.com/geography-jk/rivers-of-jammu-and-kashmir/

I am trying to follow up on some points from the documentary (I've been saying that a lot), and apart from K/J being blessed lands fertile and all that, the rivers running through it are like the lifeblood for what lays down the stream.

Surely if the current stand off is because of land alone, then I would still argue like I did previously (post 111 atm).

Mending wounds, healing the land and people.

If issue is full control over a river....Pakistan could have made it clear by not entering into any negotiation for this river system....much less signing a treaty....and making it very clear complete physical territorial control of a river(s) was the only position they could accept.

If every treaty signed is then speculated upon with "fears" (even with full precedence of the treaty holding up even during war time)....no treaty in the world will last then....

What should Tigris and Euphrates downstream countries think of Turkey control upstream? It is their lifeblood right?...there is a fear...

I don't need to bring in the Nile dispute happening now with same lifeblood argument, precisely because there was not a good treaty negotiated and agreed upon with enough provisions for further arbitration.

Or maybe ASEAN countries should unite and invade China so the Mekong comes under their full control?...its their lifeblood again.

 

[Saithan]

If issue is full control over a river....Pakistan could have made it clear by not entering into any negotiation for this river system....much less signing a treaty....and making it very clear complete physical territorial control of a river(s) was the only position they could accept.

If every treaty signed is then speculated upon with "fears" (even with full precedence of the treaty holding up even during war time)....no treaty in the world will last then....

What should Tigris and Euphrates downstream countries think of Turkey control upstream? It is their lifeblood right?...there is a fear...

I don't need to bring in the Nile dispute happening now with same lifeblood argument, precisely because there was not a good treaty negotiated and agreed upon with enough provisions for further arbitration.

Or maybe ASEAN countries should unite and invade China so the Mekong comes under their full control?...its their lifeblood again.

Power balance plays in here. But I get your point

Don't be angry.

The water crises in Turkey, Syria and Iraq | Pakistan Today

www.pakistantoday.com.pk

If water isn't the problem then it must be more land and ressources. Only solution I see is referendum to clearly give ppl peace of mind.

 

[Nilgiri]

Only solution I see is referendum to clearly give ppl peace of mind.

Will you suggest one for Eastern Turkey?

If not, then I fail to see how "peace of mind" argument applies anywhere else.

How a country comes into being, the process is very important, the constitution is extremely important in what the scopes it sets out legally...including referenda.

I mean wouldn't a perfect country in the world by this logic simply by "peace of mind" afford a referendum down to the minutest unit (say each square km of its territory and the people living in it) and say at yearly frequency so that their absolute peace of mind is achieved on this important question? They may simply come and go totally voluntarily...as the nation (whatever is left by that definition) should simply be that degree of non-collectivised, with anarchy being the ultimate ideal.

If you do not argue for that, and feel there is some collective "imposing" a nation should make above that...then it is simple a degree of scale for that, for the nation to then decide is it not...especially with reference to the way it was formed and why and what treaties and legalities were to be honoured.

If you are willing to change that for your own and set precedent for it, be my guest. But that will have to be done before exerting the same to another.

I really dont want to bring up the hypocrisy this would govern with regards to a country that lost half a wing in the fashion it did....when it could have simply done a referendum too....but strangely preaches referendum elsewhere with little admittance or correction and forget restitution towards that grievous episode.

The referendum-asker should:

a) be credible on the issue itself

b) have implemented it for its own problems so there is precedence to compare and reference to logically

So I totally disagree with this as any kind of solution in this context....and especially one from any country that will not do the same for itself first.

The laws that would have be destroyed to make way for it...and sheer precedent that would set in itself is altogether another subject.

If you want to talk about where referenda are done with results honoured on this kind of topic (say UK) that is again another subject and very very tied into how that country formed from its current constituents. The process and laws really matter. You compare it to Spain and Canada and find the stark differences right away.

Then you can forget about authoritarian, totalitarian and "hybrid" regime countries which pick and choose which parts and time periods to respect and honour their basic law (if they have one) altogether on the issue.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Considering the sad events that led to K/J current situation. The displacement of so many who ended up living in Jammu region, forgotten.

Who?

If you ask the political segment that I hate the most in Indian politics, the right-wing religious, they will point to the refugees in Jammu, refugees from the mass rape and slaughter in Rajouri, and in other western Jammu (=Poonch) locations [NB: Jammu is both a city and a region, correctly only a city, but the name has been loosely used for a region below the foothills around the Vale of Kashmir].

It will not take them long to work themselves into a hysteria about the fate of the Kashmiri Pandits, who were expelled from the Valley by Islamic browbeating and threats, by beatings, rapes and killings, according to the right-wing; who fled the Vale in a planned exit encouraged by the then Governor of the State, a truly despicable character whose religious bigotry guided his every move.

Perhaps you are talking about refugees within Azad Kashmir; in that case, referring to those taking refuge in Jammu is misleading.

 

[Joe Shearer]

the problem of Pakistan is and will always be connected to the rivers.

But why?

There has NEVER been any interference with their obtaining their full share of the waters, as decided by the Indus Waters Treaty.

 

[Saithan]

Who?

If you ask the political segment that I hate the most in Indian politics, the right-wing religious, they will point to the refugees in Jammu, refugees from the mass rape and slaughter in Rajouri, and in other western Jammu (=Poonch) locations [NB: Jammu is both a city and a region, correctly only a city, but the name has been loosely used for a region below the foothills around the Vale of Kashmir].

It will not take them long to work themselves into a hysteria about the fate of the Kashmiri Pandits, who were expelled from the Valley by Islamic browbeating and threats, by beatings, rapes and killings, according to the right-wing; who fled the Vale in a planned exit encouraged by the then Governor of the State, a truly despicable character whose religious bigotry guided his every move.

Perhaps you are talking about refugees within Azad Kashmir; in that case, referring to those taking refuge in Jammu is misleading.

I was actually thinking of the Pandits, who if I remember correctly left/fled/moved from Kashmir.

I guess the documentary depicting them as innocent citizens of a minority must be misleading then

I've shared this documentary a few times due to the timeline and such, I found it very informative. I can't really say if it's 100% accurate and unbiased by one side more than the other. But I did guess it was Indian made.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I do not think the problem of K/J can be solved unless Pakistan has full control over the mentioned river that is like the lifeblood of a nation deprived of other rivers of magnitude.

If possible landswapping to such a degree that Pakistans control over the river is established, would that help ? Even if it is a thin sliver of land ?

I would like @Kaptaan to comment on this. For myself, it is a non-issue, a contrived grievance, as there has never been any problem with Pakistan getting their fair share of the waters. Without connecting the two matters, it is also worth pointing out that Pakistani water management in its Punjab wheat bowl has been shoddy and negligent. Instead of complaining about hypothetical complications in future, they would gain benefits in plenty from concentrating some brainpower on rational use of all the water that they do get.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I mean wouldn't a perfect country in the world by this logic simply by "peace of mind" afford a referendum down to the minutest unit (say each square km of its territory and the people living in it) and say at yearly frequency so that their absolute peace of mind is achieved on this important question? They may simply come and go totally voluntarily...as the nation (whatever is left by that definition) should simply be that degree of non-collectivised, with anarchy being the ultimate ideal.

Thanks for taking the wind out of my sails. This was the argument I was planning to use to amplify the objections to a referendum taking place now.

 

[Saithan]

I would like @Kaptaan to comment on this. For myself, it is a non-issue, a contrived grievance, as there has never been any problem with Pakistan getting their fair share of the waters. Without connecting the two matters, it is also worth pointing out that Pakistani water management in its Punjab wheat bowl has been shoddy and negligent. Instead of complaining about hypothetical complications in future, they would gain benefits in plenty from concentrating some brainpower on rational use of all the water that they do get.

Yes, I've seen that Turkey has made some investments to alleviate the water crises in some places, but more needs to be done, and a dedicated budget to this end would be best. And on bigger scale.

Turkey sets up water filtration facilities in Pakistan

4 water filtration facilities were set up by Turkish Cooperation and Coordination Agency in coordination with local NGO - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Joe Shearer]

I guess the documentary depicting them as innocent citizens of a minority must be misleading then

It is a mysterious happening. Even though I have very dear friends among the KPs, including one who has visibly gone completely right-wing - extreme right-wing - I am not convinced about their flight. This is even while I accept that the pressure on them was horrifying.

They have much to reproach themselves for.

 

[Saithan]

This timeline seems to be in line with what was mentioned in the documentary

Kashmir profile - Timeline

A chronology of key events in the history of Kashmir, from the partition of the Indian sub-continent to the present day

www.bbc.com

But when I look at it, I would argue that what made matters complicated are from 51- onwards.

And finally:

2019 August - Indian government strips Jammu and Kashmir state of the special status that gave it significant autonomy.

Wouldn't this last move not make a referendum a must, either that or an armed uprising.?

 

[Joe Shearer]

May I take this opportunity, @Saithan, to compliment you on your balanced, sensitive and thoughtful posts in this thread. Very nice reading.

This is also an opportunity to reassure you most sincerely that you need not hold back, and are fully entitled to make your points as forcefully as you wish. We are, none of us, little children to be put into a flutter by a contradictory post with views contrary to our own, especially when posted by a sensitive, informed member.

 

[Joe Shearer]

2019 August - Indian government strips Jammu and Kashmir state of the special status that gave it significant autonomy.

Wouldn't this last move not make a referendum a must, either that or an armed uprising.?

Oh, completely.

The biggest blunder in independent India.

I wonder if it is recoverable.

 

[Saithan]

May I take this opportunity, @Saithan, to compliment you on your balanced, sensitive and thoughtful posts in this thread. Very nice reading.

This is also an opportunity to reassure you most sincerely that you need not hold back, and are fully entitled to make your points as forcefully as you wish. We are, none of us, little children to be put into a flutter by a contradictory post with views contrary to our own, especially when posted by a sensitive, informed member.

I find following the intricates of occurances difficult, and seeing what mistakes has been makes (in hindsight) I wonder if following decisions made by the governing states was attempting to solve the issue, but kept falling short or getting disrupted by coup d'etat.

Gen. Musharraf's actions in late 90's got in the way of perhaps the last chance of solving the issues. The attack on Indian Parliament in 2001 was as I see it the final strike.

I don't think Pakistan is capable of solving the issue alone with India, especially not considering the economic debt that Pakistan has accumulated. You need economic stability and wealth in order to reduce the influence of the Army. In my opinion.

 

[Joe Shearer]

How utterly pleasant to be able to discuss a sensitive subject with members who are courteous and who write with graceful understanding and acknowledgement of contrary views. How I miss this at PDF.

I am beginning to like this forum more and more.

 

[Kaptaan]

I would love to know more about the issues that resulted in a sovereign Bangladesh, but perhaps a separate thread would connec the dots more easily

Bangladesh was actually fertilized in August 1947 but gestation took another 24 years before it was born in 1971 after a difficult delivery.

 

[Nilgiri]

I don't think Pakistan is capable of solving the issue alone with India, especially not considering the economic debt that Pakistan has accumulated. You need economic stability and wealth in order to reduce the influence of the Army. In my opinion.

I think Pakistan is more than capable of solving the issue peacefully even right now. The ingredients are all there, the recipe is no big secret, the best cooks can all be found....but they at the top just need to be willing to have the good soup be made and served.

It is the one thing about some of the PDF best moments I remember where when I saw the best Pak minds w.r.t this topic (unbiased at the time by a real life friendship with me which I had gotten used to outside for such conversation).

Perfect strangers basically (some whom I have become friendly with since) with vastly different lived life experience and perspectives to mine....who were able to rationally explain a peaceful course for a solution. If they exist there, they definitely exist at enough prevalence to make a difference if given a good chance.

Thus the issue as always is having people in the right specific places (of note and consequence) thinking like that, and the equivalents on our side.

But as always status quo and entrenched narrative are a powerful person's thickest bread and oh so thick butter. It takes the minimum amount of effort to double down on a course you have long staked so much on for personal gain....whatever the cost may be to so many multitudes of others.

But overall you are correct that a better secure economic future with wealth spread among more people by more opportunity to do more productive work tends to help a great deal in this endeavour as it brings lot more competition in that realm of stakeholder with voices and aspirations....and clarity of thought on what matters most in the end....not to mention the fear gets dissipated as you feel more secure and confident. This puts continual healthy pressure on a status quo.

But I do not see it as an absolute prerequisite, Pakistan has long had and continues to have all the reasons and abilities to find a very viable peace with India and take an agree to disagree approach for whatever needs to be put on the cold freeze for some time so an organic trust may build and flourish for a generation or two first.

 

[Saiyan0321]

I was pissed off by then by the 101 Dalmatians: the Pan-Islamic Pakistan, PakistanForever bunch.

Well that place pisses people off most people. Most recent being jamahirs anti-dog tirade and cherubs madness