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Armenian forces that failed to infiltrate in Zengilan
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Azerbaijan Armenia Tensions
- Thread starter Agha Sher
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Armenian forces that failed to infiltrate in Zengilan
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Normally you just collaps the entrances. You could do that after tossing in some rats with trackers. That way you could find out where it leads.
Ryder
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Call me old fashion but I prefer good old flametroopers
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2 tanks, 2 grad, 14 artillery and 6 troop transport along with other things destroyed.
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Does anyone know the forces engaged by Azerbaïdjan ?
To me this doesn't look like a full scale war with combined arms operations,more like a campaign involving a heavy aerial campaign using drones with limited pushes on the ground.
In a month of campaign,only small villages and towns have been captured in a mostly flat terrain,despite Azeri military superiority,the Armenians haven't been yet defeated decisively,despite heavy losses.
To me this doesn't look like a full scale war with combined arms operations,more like a campaign involving a heavy aerial campaign using drones with limited pushes on the ground.
In a month of campaign,only small villages and towns have been captured in a mostly flat terrain,despite Azeri military superiority,the Armenians haven't been yet defeated decisively,despite heavy losses.
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It looks like a campaign to me too. Considering that the Northern fronts haven't moved further is a cause for worry especially considering Azerbaycans aerial superiority.
But I saw a tweet that Agdere is experiencing progress now.
I think the southern front is going to shut off Lacin corridor thereby strangling supply lines to Karabagh.
No Supply, no fighting except dying.
Gary
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true, I wonder why they haven't captured Martakert and Xocavend yet, despite being in a less mountainous terrain
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My guess is, civilians. But as I said I think controlling all roads to Karabagh is the key to strangling the occupiers.
Gary
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Agdam to the East of Stepanakert is mainly flat lands, perfect for maneuver warfare using mass armor deployments, controlling Agdam would mean control to the roads leading to Stepanakert Airport (likely the only way for the Govt and military officials inside the city to escape once the Azeri's close in). the same also applies to Martakert.
big Q mark why not yet captured.
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I think we all want to know the answer to that question. Perhaps moving too fast will make Russia, Iran make a move. So Azerbaycan is taking a longer route to ensure cutting off Karabagh from Armenia and then choke it, and take it back.
Hexciter
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Azerbaijan Ministry of Defense announced that 2 Su-25 fighter jets belonging to Armenia have been shot down in the direction of Kubadlı.
Gary
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Dogfights? No?
Gary
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Rusted tanks ? And a mountain of tires....
I'm simply a 'curious lurker' here, since few weeks. Thus sorry if anybody feels 'provoked' by this post. What prompted it is the apparent 'confusion' of diverse posters about the Azeri tactics....
The Azeri tactics is extremely confusing - for the Armenians, but also for foreign observers. Much of this is caused by systematic mis-education in our societies of the last 40 years: the social media is meanwhile dominated by 2-3 generations grown to serve as drones, indebt themselves and spend money while partying, but entirely unable of empathy, and entirely unable of soberly analysing what they see... Add the process of professionalising military services to that: results in general public having no clue about military operations. Indeed, we have a condition of 'parallel universe', where civilians think their own way, and the armed forces are thinking and living their own way - and these two worlds cannot even communicate with each other, because each 'knows', indeed is 'sure' the 'other side' can't understand it. And then add the fact that for the last 20+ years next to no conventional wars were fought, so that 'civilians' could at least self-educate themselves in monitoring them. Finally, own side is 'always and exclusively right'. Indeed, people are insistent on listening only to the news they want to hear. The 'enemy' is 'always wrong', 'silly', 'pigs/fuckers/whatever', de-humanised into oblivion, no matter what it does...
Anyway... early on, this appeared to be a 'war of big mechanised formations and big manoeuvres'. Now it appears to be a 'war of small units'.
Neither is entirely correct.
Early on, the Azeris were forced to breach the Armenian 'defence belt': a system of fortifications atop dominating peaks, protected by deep minefields, plentiful of ATGM-teams and artillery. To brach this, the Azeris had to first neutralise Armenian air defences, and then systematically destroy their armour and artillery. This worked only partially north of Agdam/Martakert, not at all in the centre, but was highly successful in the south. Once through that belt, the Azeri Army 'spilled' into the rear, and this is what resulted in it securing all of the south of the Armenian-ocuppied territories.
Then the fighting moved towards north and - at least since the fighting for Hadrut, around 10 October - very few people can understand what's going on.
Actually, the Azeris have completely changed their tactics: from that of a massive mechanised onslaught (necessary to punch fortified Armenian defence belt) into one of constant infiltration and swarming. That works something like this.
Terrain is a nightmare (for both sides). Thus, Azeris are exploiting it to their advantage. They're using terrain to probe Armenian positions by running armed reconnaissance in unexpected directions. Sometimes they're doing things that were 'absolute no-no' in warfare so far - like movement perpendicular to the enemy to cross a hill crest and then find a new weak spot in enemy lines, 'on the other side of the mountain'.
Say: they face strong opposition on a specific hill crest? They use UAVs to search for possible weak spots, then send SOF troops there. As soon as the SOF reconnoitre a gap, they rush their infantry to follow-up.
That's why 'Azeri SOF' (which usually aren't even SOF) then 'suddenly surface' to take some place, 3, 5, sometimes more kilometres behind the enemy frontline: they attack 'out of nothing', and overrun the local garrison, while follow-ups then widen the gap in the frontline. That's why we then get to see 10, 15, 20, 30... Armenian troops killed 'in the same spot' (i.e. relatively small area).
Then it's a race of who's going to have more troops at that spot within the shorter period of time. It's only at that point that 'big mechanised formations' are moving in...
This is causing immense frustration on the Armenian side: terrain is prohibitive, but they also meanwhile lack troops and means (due to Azeri UCAVs) to build a coherent frontline. The last few days they have managed to build up some defences in depth in the Lachin and Martuni/Hocavend areas, but in between they were forced to arm the remaining locals to help them slow down and cause problems for roaming Azeri recce parties.
Sometimes such Azeri efforts misfire, too - and then it's on them to suffer heavy losses: their recce parties, and/or follow-up troops run into an ambush, or the Armenians manage to cut them off. Then we get to see 10, 15, 20, 30... Azeri bodies...
The Armenian MOD is eagerly exploiting this Azeri tactics to babble about 'sabotage bands'. It's message is kind of: 'don't panic, don't run away; they're just here to run a hit-and-run operation, they're soon going to be away'.
Plenty of Armenia-supportive observers in the social media are buying this legend, and babbling about 'Azeri propaganda warfare'. Kind of, 'Aliyev sends his troops to claim a place liberated, but can't provide proof for success'.
However, the former has the purpose of preventing panic and keeping the morale of the troops at acceptable levels, while the latter is little else but delusion.
Misunderstanding such propaganda for 'mirror or Azeri military capabilities and skills' is actually plain dumb (in the case of Armenians, it is not only irresponsible, but a life-threatening decision.)
...and then the circle closes, and the same story is repeating itself all the time...
Means: there is a widespread inability to analyse, comprehend and explain what's going on, and at least as widespread refusal to accept reality. People can't put themselves into the shoes of involved commanders and troops, refuse to understand their 'enemy', can't even read maps, and have no trace of idea about the combination of reconnaissance capabilities, manoeuvre and firepower of modern-day armed forces...and the military is not the least keen to help explaining (if for no other reasons, then for OPSEC purposes). And then there's the favouritism, too....
Overall, be patient. Study maps, try to imagine yourself 'walking' up those hills or down those valleys. In peace - and that without an assault rifle or machine gun weighting 5-15kg in your hands, and a rucksack with ammo and food for two days on your back....Then you're going to understand a lot, and wonder a lot less about what's going on.
Thanks for your attention. I'm now back to my 'monitoring mode'.
The Azeri tactics is extremely confusing - for the Armenians, but also for foreign observers. Much of this is caused by systematic mis-education in our societies of the last 40 years: the social media is meanwhile dominated by 2-3 generations grown to serve as drones, indebt themselves and spend money while partying, but entirely unable of empathy, and entirely unable of soberly analysing what they see... Add the process of professionalising military services to that: results in general public having no clue about military operations. Indeed, we have a condition of 'parallel universe', where civilians think their own way, and the armed forces are thinking and living their own way - and these two worlds cannot even communicate with each other, because each 'knows', indeed is 'sure' the 'other side' can't understand it. And then add the fact that for the last 20+ years next to no conventional wars were fought, so that 'civilians' could at least self-educate themselves in monitoring them. Finally, own side is 'always and exclusively right'. Indeed, people are insistent on listening only to the news they want to hear. The 'enemy' is 'always wrong', 'silly', 'pigs/fuckers/whatever', de-humanised into oblivion, no matter what it does...
Anyway... early on, this appeared to be a 'war of big mechanised formations and big manoeuvres'. Now it appears to be a 'war of small units'.
Neither is entirely correct.
Early on, the Azeris were forced to breach the Armenian 'defence belt': a system of fortifications atop dominating peaks, protected by deep minefields, plentiful of ATGM-teams and artillery. To brach this, the Azeris had to first neutralise Armenian air defences, and then systematically destroy their armour and artillery. This worked only partially north of Agdam/Martakert, not at all in the centre, but was highly successful in the south. Once through that belt, the Azeri Army 'spilled' into the rear, and this is what resulted in it securing all of the south of the Armenian-ocuppied territories.
Then the fighting moved towards north and - at least since the fighting for Hadrut, around 10 October - very few people can understand what's going on.
Actually, the Azeris have completely changed their tactics: from that of a massive mechanised onslaught (necessary to punch fortified Armenian defence belt) into one of constant infiltration and swarming. That works something like this.
Terrain is a nightmare (for both sides). Thus, Azeris are exploiting it to their advantage. They're using terrain to probe Armenian positions by running armed reconnaissance in unexpected directions. Sometimes they're doing things that were 'absolute no-no' in warfare so far - like movement perpendicular to the enemy to cross a hill crest and then find a new weak spot in enemy lines, 'on the other side of the mountain'.
Say: they face strong opposition on a specific hill crest? They use UAVs to search for possible weak spots, then send SOF troops there. As soon as the SOF reconnoitre a gap, they rush their infantry to follow-up.
That's why 'Azeri SOF' (which usually aren't even SOF) then 'suddenly surface' to take some place, 3, 5, sometimes more kilometres behind the enemy frontline: they attack 'out of nothing', and overrun the local garrison, while follow-ups then widen the gap in the frontline. That's why we then get to see 10, 15, 20, 30... Armenian troops killed 'in the same spot' (i.e. relatively small area).
Then it's a race of who's going to have more troops at that spot within the shorter period of time. It's only at that point that 'big mechanised formations' are moving in...
This is causing immense frustration on the Armenian side: terrain is prohibitive, but they also meanwhile lack troops and means (due to Azeri UCAVs) to build a coherent frontline. The last few days they have managed to build up some defences in depth in the Lachin and Martuni/Hocavend areas, but in between they were forced to arm the remaining locals to help them slow down and cause problems for roaming Azeri recce parties.
Sometimes such Azeri efforts misfire, too - and then it's on them to suffer heavy losses: their recce parties, and/or follow-up troops run into an ambush, or the Armenians manage to cut them off. Then we get to see 10, 15, 20, 30... Azeri bodies...
The Armenian MOD is eagerly exploiting this Azeri tactics to babble about 'sabotage bands'. It's message is kind of: 'don't panic, don't run away; they're just here to run a hit-and-run operation, they're soon going to be away'.
Plenty of Armenia-supportive observers in the social media are buying this legend, and babbling about 'Azeri propaganda warfare'. Kind of, 'Aliyev sends his troops to claim a place liberated, but can't provide proof for success'.
However, the former has the purpose of preventing panic and keeping the morale of the troops at acceptable levels, while the latter is little else but delusion.
Misunderstanding such propaganda for 'mirror or Azeri military capabilities and skills' is actually plain dumb (in the case of Armenians, it is not only irresponsible, but a life-threatening decision.)
...and then the circle closes, and the same story is repeating itself all the time...
Means: there is a widespread inability to analyse, comprehend and explain what's going on, and at least as widespread refusal to accept reality. People can't put themselves into the shoes of involved commanders and troops, refuse to understand their 'enemy', can't even read maps, and have no trace of idea about the combination of reconnaissance capabilities, manoeuvre and firepower of modern-day armed forces...and the military is not the least keen to help explaining (if for no other reasons, then for OPSEC purposes). And then there's the favouritism, too....
Overall, be patient. Study maps, try to imagine yourself 'walking' up those hills or down those valleys. In peace - and that without an assault rifle or machine gun weighting 5-15kg in your hands, and a rucksack with ammo and food for two days on your back....Then you're going to understand a lot, and wonder a lot less about what's going on.
Thanks for your attention. I'm now back to my 'monitoring mode'.
Gary
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The T-72s to the front left are not rusted, the BMP-2's look burned
