Bangladesh Army Bangladesh Army

[Afif]

@Afif @F-6 enthusiast I have a feeling that boran may also replace our 122mm howitzers.Do you think it will be a good decision?

No, I don’t think so. we need at least 10x 155mm heavy artillery regiments for each of the 10 divisions.

Let me ask some basic questions.

1. Do we have modern AFV shortage? Yes, but that is okay. After all we will fight a defensive war.

2. Do We lack modern tanks? Yes, but this is also somewhat acceptable.

3. Do we lack basic air defence coverage? Yes, and this is not acceptable as enemy air dominance in the sky would means several times more casualties for than usual. But we would be still in the fight.

However, if we lack the very basic amount of heavy artillery, we would be out of the fight before even it begins.



How do you think a full blown war would like if we are going to fight with these?

Obviously, as you can see other countries uses these stuff as relics.

Oh, by the way if you think 10x regiment of modern 155mm artillery for 10 division each is too much then let me enlighten you. Even if we don't take advanced militaries around the world into consideration, armies on average equip two out of three brigades ( in every division) with sufficient artillery supplies.( 3x battalions or 2x regiment of artillery)

having at least sufficient heavy artillery (1x regiment) for one brigade out of three in a division is a minimum necessity. If want to have an actual army there is no other way around it.

Even a country like Armenia can order 60-70x amount of 155mm artillery in single contract (only 150 millions)
But we, as 450 billion dollars economy can't even order more than 18x at one given time.
And even if this amount was every 2/3 years then, it would have been somewhat justified.
but our first regiment of 155mm artillery (18x) bought in 2013 and now it is 2023 And yet we couldn’t get our hand on second regiment.


There is no limit how pathetic our readiness is.

@F-6 enthusiast Am I over frustrated? Or this feeling is justified? What do you think?

@PutinBro nothing personal. And to back to your actual question, 105mm artillery is only for light infantry only. It is not able to meet the requirement of heavy and mechanised infantry.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

No, I don’t think so. we need at least 10x 155mm heavy artillery regiments for each of the 10 divisions.

Let me ask some basic questions.

1. Do we have modern AFV shortage? Yes, but that is okay. After all we will fight a defensive war.

2. Do We lack modern tanks? Yes, but this is also somewhat acceptable.

3. Do we lack basic air defence coverage? Yes, and this is not acceptable as enemy air dominance in the sky would means several times more casualties for than usual. But we would be still in the fight.

However, if we lack the very basic amount of heavy artillery, we would be out of the fight before even it begins.



How do you think a full blown war would like if we are going to fight with these?
View attachment 57272

View attachment 57273

Obviously, as you can see other countries uses these stuff as relics.

Oh, by the way if you think 10x regiment of modern 155mm artillery for 10 division each is too much then let me enlighten you. Even if we don't take advanced militaries around the world into consideration, armies on average equip two out of three brigades ( in every division) with sufficient artillery supplies.( 3x battalions or 2x regiment of artillery)

having at least sufficient heavy artillery (1x regiment) for one brigade out of three in a division is a minimum necessity. If want to have an actual army there is no other way around it.

Even a country like Armenia can order 60-70x amount of 155mm artillery in single contract (only 150 millions)
But we, as 450 billion dollars economy can't even order more than 18x at one given time.
And even if this amount was every 2/3 years then, it would have been somewhat justified.
but our first regiment of 155mm artillery (18x) bought in 2013 and now it is 2023 And yet we couldn’t get our hand on second regiment.


There is no limit how pathetic our readiness is.

@F-6 enthusiast Am I over frustrated? Or this feeling is justified? What do you think?

@PutinBro nothing personal. And to back to your actual question, 105mm artillery is only for light infantry only. It is not able to meet the requirement of heavy and mechanised infantry.

How much has Bangladesh used in the last 5 years on procurement? What is the average?

 

[Afif]

How much has Bangladesh used in the last 5 years on procurement? What is the average?

I would say around 1.2-1.5 billion in USD. Assuming (1 billion deal with Turkey in 2021 is a multi years contract and we haven’t paid all of it yet)

The only two big procurement in last 5 years is, 1x regiment of Kaplan MLRS and 1x regiment of VT-5 tank.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

I would say around 1.2-1.5 billion in USD. Assuming (1 billion deal with Turkey in 2021 is a multi years contract and we haven’t paid all of it yet)

The only two big procurement in last 5 years is, 1x regiment of Kaplan MLRS and 1x regiment of VT-5 tank.

The Hisar was included in the 1 billion deal, right? At least your offensive capabilities when it comes to the MLRS are sorted out with the Kaplan and TRG-230. Around 80-100 155m artillery units should do enough for now. Most of the budget should be allocated towards the air force.

 

[PutinBro]

@Afif I think we have misunderstanding.I am not supporting the idea of replacing 122mm with 105mm.I just said what I think they might do and asked for you guys opinions on that.

Note that even if 122 does gets replaced by boran we will still get at least one regt of 155mm for each division.But the question is whether only one regt per division (180 guns) is enough or not.At this moment BA has 600-700 guns and a large amount is 122 and 105mm.You can say that BA has relied on lighter howitzers since the beginning.Our 122mms are pretty much similar to boran in terms of range and other light gun traits but of course boran is a more modern system.

I personally think all 130 and 122mm should be replaced by 155mm.While keeping the number of 105mm to present level.

 

[Afif]

The Hisar was included in the 1 billion deal, right?

Yes, also 1x battery Type A artillery (Khan BM) and 1x battery Barbaros coastal defence system is very likely to be included.
Plus, there is a rumor for another regiment of Kaplan MLRS. (Ukraine got delivery of Kaplan MLRS painted with BD camouflage. It is speculated that, it was meant for BD)

Most of the budget should be allocated towards the air force.

I agree, when MRCA and heavy attack helicopter procurement is realized BAF will get more 3 billions.

But who knows when it comes true.

 

[Gary]

Even a country like Armenia can order 60-70x amount of 155mm artillery in single contract (only 150 millions)
But we, as 450 billion dollars economy can't even order more than 18x at one given time.
And even if this amount was every 2/3 years then, it would have been somewhat justified.
but our first regiment of 155mm artillery (18x) bought in 2013 and now it is 2023 And yet we couldn’t get our hand on second regiment.

Armenia is not picky when it comes to choosing their artillery, most of their artillery are cheap Ex-Soviet stocks which they brought at a discount due to their security pact with Russia or inherited from the Soviet army stationed there during the Soviet times. Notably the D-20 and BM-21 Grad which is cheap as a cucumber.

Looking at the scope of your modernization ranging from new ships, submarines, air defense and etc, its no wonder that there's limited fund for everything and that the budget could only equip one rehgiment of 155mm artillery.

 

[Isa Khan]

Are these ours or did Turkey just used the camo for Ukraine?

 

[Afif]

Are these ours or did Turkey just used the camo for Ukraine?

View attachment 57288
View attachment 57289

I remember @Merzifonlu said it was rumored to be manufactured for us.
Maybe he could shed more light on it if he chooses to.

 

[Ripley]

I remember @Merzifonlu said it was rumored to be manufactured for us.
Maybe he could shed more light on it if he chooses to.

So far, almost everybody agrees that it was a batch manufactured for BD. I also remember, however, one or two disagreeing and claiming they were a BD batch and destined for BD.

 

[Afif]

Armenia is not picky when it comes to choosing their artillery, most of their artillery are cheap Ex-Soviet stocks which they brought at a discount due to their security pact with Russia or inherited from the Soviet army stationed there during the Soviet times. Notably the D-20 and BM-21 Grad which is cheap as a cucumber.

Looking at the scope of your modernization ranging from new ships, submarines, air defense and etc, its no wonder that there's limited fund for everything and that the budget could only equip one rehgiment of 155mm artillery.

I think they finally order another regiment of 155mm artillery in 2021. (This one is towed and light) But delivery didn't started as for today.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Yes, also 1x battery Type A artillery (Khan BM) and 1x battery Barbaros coastal defence system is very likely to be included.
Plus, there is a rumor for another regiment of Kaplan MLRS. (Ukraine got delivery of Kaplan MLRS painted with BD camouflage. It is speculated that, it was meant for BD)



I agree, when MRCA and heavy attack helicopter procurement is realized BAF will get more 3 billions.

But who knows when it comes true.

Nice! Making a layer air defense structure should be a high top priority for Bangladesh at this moment. It's interesting how Bangladesh is interested in modernizing all of its branches simultaneously.

Bangladesh top list:

- Air defense systems in different ranges, and altitudes.
- 24 modern 4+ fighter jet+ 24 CAS like the Hurjet/FA-50.
- 80-100 155mm artillery pieces.
- Radars+ EW systems.


I dont know why the Bangladeshi leadership is going for the heavy attack procurement when Bangladesh needs some heavy procurement of fighter jets. Cheap kamikaze drones and drones of different types can do the task well enough. Cheaper alternative for now. Myanmar is a threat to Bangladesh right now, and it does not take a lot to surpass them.

 

[F-6 enthusiast]

@F-6 enthusiast Am I over frustrated? Or this feeling is justified? What do you think?

100% what you said

 

[Flextape]

Oh, by the way if you think 10x regiment of modern 155mm artillery for 10 division each is too much then let me enlighten you. Even if we don't take advanced militaries around the world into consideration, armies on average equip two out of three brigades ( in every division) with sufficient artillery supplies.( 3x battalions or 2x regiment of artillery)

This is not how Artillery works in this country. Our country is small so there is no way in hell to supply all our divisions with 1 regt of Heavy Arty. The only form of Hvy Arty we currently have is the Nora 52s. And if you look strategically, as they are truck mounted, they can be easily transferred to both 66,55 or stay at 11 Div during war time. Currently these are just to show foreign power, that we have Hvy Arty and don't come at us from the north.

Secondly, we have sufficient Field artillery and the army knows it. For every division we have 1 Arty Bde, in which there are 3 Fd Arty,1 Med arty, 1 Div Loc Bty minimum. The current SOP for Arty in Div level is that the 1st Fd Regt and the Arty Bde HQ will directly cover Div HQ and act as Div Sp, the 2nd and 3rd Fd Regt will go for direct support under 1st and 2nd Inf Bde under the Div. And the Med Arty Regt will act as the offensive element. but as many of our Div comprises of 3 inf bde, the army is currently rationalizing its fd arty.

Coming back to the Nora52, if you notice very carefully, you will realise 722 means the second unit in bde, so the Noras aren't really here to cover for the div. Its primary function is to jointly harass the enemy up north along with the med regt as an offensive maneuver. And to cover for the 1st inf bde one additional Fd Arty Regt has been placed. So by using this logic I hope you can get a better picture why we don't need Hvy Arty in every Div any time soon.

Lastly, as stated before, the army lacks heavily in the AD sector, currently we only have around 14 regts of AD in total. Clearly its not sufficient. Just like the engineers, AD support is something a Inf Bde Comdt can only dream of in the battlefield. As a result cheap Manpads are the only thing that is feasible in a large quantity. The army is planning in the long term, every Div to have its own AD bde but we all know we will most probably die before seeing the flags of those Bdes.

 

[PutinBro]

So by using this logic I hope you can get a better picture why we don't need Hvy Arty in every Div any time soon.

You said in a previous post that army was planning to equip the med arty regiments with SPHs.Is that plan ongoing?

 

[PutinBro]

@Flextape Army does plans to have towed 155mm guns.According to this report, BA also received one unit of M-94 howitzer from Bosnia(for evaluation maybe..) in 2021-

UNROCA (United Nations Register of Conventional Arms)

www.unroca.org

Now the question is how do they plan to operate them and in what quantity?

 

[Afif]

I will try to summarize my points here more efficiently, so we could avoid some misunderstanding.

Secondly, we have sufficient Field artillery and the army knows it. For every division we have 1 Arty Bde, in which there are 3 Fd Arty,1 Med arty, 1 Div Loc Bty minimum. The current SOP for Arty in Div level is that the 1st Fd Regt and the Arty Bde HQ will directly cover Div HQ and act as Div Sp, the 2nd and 3rd Fd Regt will go for direct support under 1st and 2nd Inf Bde under the Div.

I already figured it out that it would be something similar when you sent me 'all units according to Corps'

Each field/light artillery Regt (I am assuming all or most of field artilleries are 105mm guns) assigned for each light infantry brigade completely make sense. And I am not mistaken we have roughly around 30 field Artillery regiments.
That is also how more or less US army brigades (SBCT & ABCT) are supported with 18 howitzers each. ( Only they call it battalion instead of Regt. But tbh, their IBCT are supported by 105mm light howitzers battalion which consists of 12 guns instead of 18 like those that are in support of SBCT & and ABCT. In that sense, every BD light infantry bde actually has more guns in its supporting element than US army’s light infantry bdes. Btw, I am assuming here our each field artillery Regt consists of 18 guns.)

And the Med Arty Regt will act as the offensive element.

That is what i am talking about here.
If Med Arty Regt act as offensive element in support of maneuver force (armor regiment+mech infantry) then my argument is, we should convert all of our Med Arty Regt ( assuming they are consist of 122mm and 130mm guns) into heavy 155mm Artillery regiment, ( preferably Self propelled, because modern artillery warfare tactics relies on shoot and scoot tactics to avoid counter fire and getting taken out by enemy air strikes) as our 122mm 130mm howitzers are grossly outgunned by adversaries 155/52 heavy artilleries.

So I am not advocating for adding extra 1x regiment 155 artillery for each div. Rather, i am proposing to standardize 155mm guns instead of 122mm and 130mm guns in all of our Med Arty Regts (then we could also change the name and call it Heavy Arty Regt) to provide more effective support to our maneuver elements (Armor Regt+Mech infantry)

Also, as @PutinBro pointed out, I remember you previously said, gradually army will replace 130mm guns with 155m howitzers.

For every division we have 1 Arty Bde, in which there are 3 Fd Arty,1 Med arty, 1 Div Loc Bty minimum.

Now if it is the case than we should have around 10 Med Arty Regt in total.
So, if we standardised 155mm guns for them then it would be 180 155mm howitzers in total.
And that is exactly what I meant in my previous post.

However, here is a note. The unit formation list you emailed me there are references to only 5 Med Arty Regt.


@PutinBro @F-6 enthusiast I hope it clears the confusion.

Lastly, as stated before, the army lacks heavily in the AD sector, currently we only have around 14 regts of AD in total. Clearly its not sufficient. Just like the engineers, AD support is something a Inf Bde Comdt can only dream of in the battlefield. As a result cheap Manpads are the only thing that is feasible in a large quantity. The army is planning in the long term, every Div to have its own AD bde but we all know we will most probably die before seeing the flags of those Bdes.

Any idea how our infantry brigades could be structured in the future? (Taking MRSAM into consideration)

 

[Isa Khan]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=787476483017588

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=928608391788177

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=971164327404997

 

[Isa Khan]

 

[Flextape]

That is what i am talking about here.
If Med Arty Regt act as offensive element in support of maneuver force (armor regiment+mech infantry) then my argument is, we should convert all of our Med Arty Regt ( assuming they are consist of 122mm and 130mm guns) into heavy 155mm Artillery regiment, ( preferably Self propelled, because modern artillery warfare tactics relies on shoot and scoot tactics to avoid counter fire and getting taken out by enemy air strikes) as our 122mm 130mm howitzers are grossly outgunned by adversaries 155/52 heavy artilleries.

I totally agree with you on this regard, matter of fact everyone thought that this would be the norm until ARTDOC said otherwise. BUT as an offensive element the 155 does makes way more sense

P.S most of our 122mm Guns are field too, although the PL-96 are considered as Med Arty despite being 122

Also, I think I couldn't make it clear in my 1st post,

"Offensive" in Artillery terms doesn't mean it will go with armd or Inf as a forward fighting force, rather it will support them from the back by picking off the enemy's Arty, Mtr, HQ etc. Basically cripple their rear elements. A more accurate term would be basically "Counter Battery"

Where as the Field Arty will join Armd, Inf etc in the frontline as a direct Cover/Shield from Enemy Inf, Armd etc
Eg. Fire-For-Effect, Walking Barrage, Continuous Harassments etc

Also, The Boran howitzers are most probably for the new 21st Para Bde under 17 Div (Not Confirmed, just speculation)

However, here is a note. The unit formation list you emailed me there are references to only 5 Med Arty Regt.

The Army has around 7 Med Regts in Total. So yes there are lackings, but those lackings are currently fulfilled by the Chinese M-30s. And at this point I don't even think that they will be given more equipment.

Any idea how our infantry brigades could be structured in the future? (Taking MRSAM into consideration)

Nothing would really change but the fact that our soldiers will move in btr-80s rather than in Arunima 3 tons

Also the ATVs mentioned in the above tender is for Asslt plnr Pl (Inf) and TA & Svy Pl (Arty). this is to increase mobility