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Hisar is more comparable to IRIS-T SL. There is many factors but Hisar is very likely better than Sky Dragon series. LY-80 has far better missile tech and much bigger than Hisar. Turkish approach to something like LY-80 is G40 missile similar to ESSM that is in development.

India is developing Akash NG, which will have more similar approach to other missiles like IRIS-T SL and Hisar.
LY-80 is based on BUK missile and thus weighs almost twice as much as Hisar missile. No wonder is has more range, but I doubt the electronics are as sophisticated. Not only that, the Hisar is optimized for highly maneuverable targets, looking at the test launches where it makes some pretty fancy manoeuvres. All thank to TVC and dual-pulse engine.
 

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How? Sky Dragon has 50km range and 30km flight altitude. Only Hisar- O+ may match that. And G-40 is similar to LY-80A not D. Any naval quad pack variant of Hiasar/G-40?

Sky Dragon50 looks similar to Hisar-O missile but Its effective altitude figure are written as 20km in many sources (similar to Hisar-O+). G40 is being developed primarily a naval missile that will be a quad-packable and to be launched with cold-launch principles.
 

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How? Sky Dragon has 50km range and 30km flight altitude. Only Hisar- O+ may match that. And G-40 is similar to LY-80A not D. Any naval quad pack variant of Hiasar/G-40?

There is said to be two variants of Hisar O+ with IIR and Active RF guidance. Range rumored to be around 35-40 km and altitude is 18-20 km. Electronic wise, Hisar is better. Systems of Hisar like Kalkan II 3D search radar, Aselsan MAR and the fire control system of Hisar is proven and improved systems.

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G40 is being developed primarily a naval missile that will be a quad-packable and to be launched with cold-launch principles.

When G-40 will be available for export? Besides will Turkish SAM have anti-ballistic missile capability? Will it be able to stop super-sonic and cruise missile? If so, then which variant?
 

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When G-40 will be available for export? Besides will Turkish SAM have anti-ballistic missile capability? Will it be able to stop super-sonic and cruise missile? If so, then which variant?

All Turkish SAM missiles are being developed to engage mainly air breathing threats including cruise missiles. Siper long range missile will have limited anti-ballistic missile capability (120km range and 30-35km altitude) but It is early to talk about the extent of their capabilities while Moat of them are still in development phase. Another surface to air missile program called “High altitude long range” will most likely be an exo-atmosperic killer vehicle to destroy primarily ballistic missiles. It is also under development.
 

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When G-40 will be available for export? Besides will Turkish SAM have anti-ballistic missile capability? Will it be able to stop super-sonic and cruise missile? If so, then which variant?

G-40 is under the responsibility of Tübitak SAGE and they are developing many new technologies to adopt Turkish domestic missiles. I believe G-40 wll be ready for trials within 1-2 years. I am expecting to see the real size mock-up of G-40 in IDEF-21. We will get all detail informations about these programs in there.
Folded wings of G-40 Missile inside the VL launchers were introduced in 2019.
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DAC thruster for cold launch missiles

Cold launch test
 

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I believe G-40 wll be ready for trials within 1-2 years.

The reason i am asking so many question is mainly Indian and Burmese supersonic threats. Both country also posses ballistic missile and all of their modern fighter jets have flight altitude higher than HISAR- O. That's why i think HISAR- O+ could be the only option from Turkey for army. Navy seems to be evaluating Sea Ceptor which can counter super sonic threat.
 

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The reason i am asking so many question is mainly Indian and Burmese supersonic threats. Both country also posses ballistic missile and all of their modern fighter jets have flight altitude higher than HISAR- O. That's why i think HISAR- O+ could be the only option from Turkey for army. Navy seems to be evaluating Sea Ceptor which can counter super sonic threat.
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18-20km altitude (~65000ft) range is very good performance for a medium range missiles and a few new generation missiles in same league can climb these altitudes. In addition, there is not many fighter aircraft that is able to perform its striking/defensive duties in these extreme altitudes. Russian fighters are known with their poor performance in the sensitive bombing missions so they have to reduce their altitudes to drop guided bombs. Western fighters have more advanced sensors and precision strike capabilities but (for example) Rafales’ service ceiling is also around 15km. I mean They will be inside the effective ranges of these missiles at all likely scenarios but, the most important thing is not the SAM missile itself but networks they are operated and the other auxiliary systems that will help SAMs inside the same umbrella. Russian SAM missiles had a great fame around the World and their brochure figures were representing the longest ranges in their classes but they were devastated when they were operated in the hands of other nations. A Turkish tactical drone have hunted them (OSA, S-125, Tor, Buk, Pantsir...etc) all with a perfectly planned strategy so, It is early to talk about the capabilities of these systems. The effectivity of these missiles against supersonic threats must be tested in trials and battlefield before talking about actual capabilities of them.

Hisar-ORf
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Chinese platforms like Sky Dragon and LY-80D is actually better than Hisar- O and Akash i believe. Lets see how Hisar- O+ turns out to be. Akash NG is still in development how are they offering it?

Well I think all of these are future tense "work over some time" kind of things (rather than immediate) for reasons explained already. That makes sense with the shipyard concepts being proposed.

Akash-NG is only one that really makes sense given current RFP with Hisar (and chinese offers) already covers range class of existing Akash.

Thus we have to wait and see what this stuff even means.

As for Chinese platform being "better" than Hisar or Akash....that is again up to BD to decide.

Simply what you see on the spec sheet is not the full story with lot of Chinese and Russian tech chain.

There are lot of details that can only be analysed by the end-user as to how it optimised to its requirement. But that would I guess need full analysis on how BD wants to take its C4I infra forward....that would be close guarded secret at this juncture, but in general terms I think some major decisions would have to be made soon so things are not so piecemeal acquisition wise going forward....i.e are you more interested in NATO or go chinese there at the core etc.


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Not sure how is this relevant to the thread but i guess it's Otokar Cobra II and MaxxPro Dash.

Well this link was brought up in post #5:


Inside it was:

In 2013, Turkey supplied Otokar Cobra light armored vehicles to the Bangladesh Army.[32] In 2015, Turkey offered Bangladesh guided missile frigates in a major government-to-government deal.[33] Two years later, the Turkish firm Delta Defence was awarded a $1 billion contract for 680 light armored vehicles.[34] In March 2019, Turkish ROKETSAN secured a contract to supply a regiment of medium-range guided multiple rocket launchers to Bangladesh.[35]

That would indeed be significant enough to take Turkey-BD trade well above Pak-BD trade for example (asserted in post 5).

So I was wondering if that actually panned out for the assertion to hold. But seemingly it hasn't so I dont see trade level (with Turkey) that much different to the one with Pakistan that BD has. (Both are just under 1 billion USD in total).

I don't see otokar 2 or maxxpro being this scale of acquisition. Maxxpro do we have confirmation btw and if so how many are BD getting?
 

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Well this link was brought up in post #5:

Well, what he said with that link is not wrong. So i don't the see any problem.

In 2013, Turkey supplied Otokar Cobra light armored vehicles to the Bangladesh Army.[32] In 2015, Turkey offered Bangladesh guided missile frigates in a major government-to-government deal.[33] Two years later, the Turkish firm Delta Defence was awarded a $1 billion contract for 680 light armored vehicles.
So I was wondering if that actually panned out for the assertion to hold. But seemingly it hasn't so I dont see trade level (with Turkey) that much different to the one with Pakistan that BD has. (Both are just under 1 billion USD in total).

I don't see otokar 2 or maxxpro being this scale of acquisition.

This is probably the only piece of information in that link which didn't turn out to be true as you may have realized that the deal didn't materialize. It's not clear how many Cobra 2 army ACTUALLY bought so i am gonna rely on what Wiki says but at least army's requirement for LAV/MRAP is clear. They may order more later as we already saw 120+ vehicles were procured.

And you may already know that Turkey is not only supplying the LAV but also EOD robots, radio sets, GMLRS. It has potential to sell SAM, attack helicopter, UAV, logistic truck, corvette, SRBM, two LPCs, Submarine Rescue ship, new generation fighter jet etc. So the sale is expected to go higher.

If you were referring to bilateral trade then i see Pak-Turkey volume is 800 million and BD-Turkey is at 1 billion. Both parties expect it to increase to 5 and 3 billion.

http://en.c4defence.com/Archive/khan-exported-to-bangladesh/9092/1

In March 2019, Turkish ROKETSAN secured a contract to supply a regiment of medium-range guided multiple rocket launchers to Bangladesh.[35]

This one was confirmed numerous times already. We may get 18 of them next year.

Maxxpro do we have confirmation btw and if so how many are BD getting?

Total 60 were approved and 50 have been delivered so far according to EDA. For Mali and RNPP i think.

110146880_692957897948582_5110149101567201698_o.jpg
 
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Nilgiri

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Well, what he said with that link is not wrong. So i don't the see any problem.

"Military sales have made Turkey a bigger trade partner to Bangladesh than other South Asian Nations, other than India of course, because of size."

It demonstrably hasn't done so.

Let's face it Pakistan is the only country being referred to here (given India is excluded by size)....no other South Asian country has population scale comparable to BD or Pak level after all.

Without the 1 billion LAV deal of the article, there is really nothing of significance by virtue of net military sales to Pak or BD (from Turkey) to push one of the trade levels (with Turkey) in an appreciable way compared to the other.

Pakistan has its fair share of military imports from Turkey as well after all.

Like we can go to SIPRI or something and find what the difference is in say last 5 years or so in military transfers from Turkey to both.....but that I can tell you will not be appreciable significance (esp to larger trade denominator) whatever it ends up being.


If you were referring to bilateral trade then i see Pak-Turkey volume is 800 million and BD-Turkey is at 1 billion. Both parties expect it to increase to 5 and 3 billion.

Both have been below 1 billion dollars this decade.

In fact the 1 billion dollar was reached by both (w.r.t Turkey trade) in 2010.

Since then it has been in the 700 - 900 million dollar range with fluctuations for both (sometimes dropping below even that).

So really I treat the "expect to" for it to reach some triple billion or more (for either country) with high skepticism (just like "MOU" signings)....especially relative to India which saw its total trade with Turkey more than double from 4 billion to 8.7 billion in the same (2010 - 2018) period.

After all w.r.t BD the likeliest time for Turkey trade to really increase would have been when BD trade and forex growth was at its best (2012 - 2016). But it didn't happen then, so I would not expect to it happen till at least that regimen of trade/forex growth restarts and compounds again (given its relative stagnation from 2016 to current).


This is probably the only piece of information in that link which didn't turn out to be true as you may have realized that the deal didn't materialized. It's not clear how many Cobra 2 army ACTUALLY bought so i am gonna rely on what Wiki says but at least army's requirement for LAV/MRAP is clear. They may order more later as we already saw 120+ vehicles were procured.

And you may already know that Turkey is not only supplying the LAV but also EOD robots, radio sets, GMLRS. It has potential to sell SAM, attack helicopter, UAV, logistic truck, corvette, SRBM, two LPCs, Submarine Rescue ship, new generation fighter jet etc. So the sale is expected to go higher.

Yes but these are not 1 billion dollar single deal/transfer like was the basis of the assertion (i.e 680 LAV for 1 billion USD)

I am in favour of BD acquiring as much from Turkey as it can and would like to. It is good exposure to NATO tech chain that will bring lot of advantages to BD and also further improve relations with a worthy country.

So the other deals (and what they lead to) are good things, but they would need to be build up on (say this decade....and past what Pakistan does (w.r.t Turkey) for the initial assertion to hold as that scale has not been evidenced thus far. In all likelihood it will be non-military sales that push BD trade with Turkey significantly more than Pak-Turkey trade.

Total 60 were approved and 50 have been delivered so far according to EDA. For Mali and RNPP i think.

Thanks.
 

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THE Bay of Bengal forms the north-eastern part of the Indian Ocean, bounded on the west and north-west by India, on the north by Bangladesh, and on the east by Myanmar, the Andaman and Nicobar Islands of India and Coco Islands of Myanmar.

Its southern limit is a line between Sri Lanka and the north-western most point of Sumatra (Indonesia). Bangladesh, India, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and Indonesia are the basin countries.

All these basin countries have navies. Their naval inventories originate from different sources except for India, which builds its own weapons and is also an arms exporter. China has the major share of weapons imported by these countries. Arms sales is a commercial venture with some degrees of political motivation. No arms sales to the countries on the Bay of Bengal came under the spotlight except the recently delivered submarine to Bangladesh and Myanmar by China and India respectively. Submarine arm operating in the Bay of Bengal region is not new. India and Indonesia have more than half a century’s experience of submarine operation. No country’s submarine fleet matches the Indian inventory.

Submarines, by any assessment, are a strategic weapon. They inflict huge psychological burden on the competing parties. In 1971, Pakistan Navy Submarine Gazi pushed Indian aircraft carrier INS Vikrant into a hideout until the submarine was lost under mysterious circumstances or the Indian navy sunk the boat in December 4–5, 1971 reportedly off the Vishakhapatnam coast in the Bay of Bengal. One submarine each on either side of the Strait of Hormuz would complicate matters in any eventual conflicts.

In the Bay of Bengal region, Myanmar is the latest country to join the submarine club. India signed the agreement with Myanmar in July 2019 to deliver INS Sindhuvir, the Kilo-class submarine. India delivered the submarine to the Myanmar navy in December 2019 and trained submarine crew in Myanmar. Myanmar commissioned the submarine as UMS Min Ye Theinkhathu. The Myanmar navy conducted Fleet Exercise Bandoola 2020 in October 12–15, 2020. Twelve ships and the submarine and LPD UMS Mottama participated in the exercise. In India, the submarine sales is viewed as a big breakthrough in its endeavour to tread China in Myanmar.

Bangladesh joined the submarine club in 2017 with two 035G (Ming class) submarine from China. India had concern at the submarine acquisition by Bangladesh. Concern expressed in inquisitiveness was to know the justification to have submarines. One school of thought for India’s concern was the ‘Chinese boat lurking at its door step’. Another assessment was the psychological burden that submarine operation inherently carries with it. Perhaps, the burden has been shrugged off, striking the deal to set up 20 Indian surveillance radar stations along the Bangladesh coast.

Was Myanmar’s acquisition of the submarine in response to Bangladesh gaining it? The straight forward answer is ‘no’. Myanmar has dreamt for decades of having it, as the commander-in-chief said, but planned in the early 2000s to acquire a fleet of three submarines, constructed submarine berth and workshop infrastructure well before acquiring the submarine. India, Pakistan and Russia trained Myanmar’s submarine crew in batches. Myanmar explored Russia, China and India to procure the submarine. India finally secured the deal. India refurbished the submarine and extended its service life till 2030, the target year for the Myanmar navy to complete a fleet of three submarines which are unlikely to be second-hand purchases.

While India opposed the submarine acquisition by Bangladesh, why did it sell INS Sindhuvir to Myanmar? Did India deliver the boat to counter the submarine in Bangladesh? A straight forward answer is unavailable. Perhaps, the answer could be ‘no’. But it is certain that the ‘China fear factor’ and the desire to stride China in Myanmar were India’s principal motivation behind the submarine sales.

China is deeply involved in Myanmar with multi-billion dollar civilian and military infrastructure development projects. China’s largest military investment project in Myanmar, worth $1.2 billion, is the Naval Shipyard at Thilawa. China is the largest supplier of arms to Myanmar. India has been in discomfort for long with Chinese political, economic and military influence on Myanmar. India has the endeavour to comfort Myanmar with civilian infrastructure projects, military sales and provide international political support. On the other hand, Myanmar wants to keep China’s influence under control playing a balancing act between China and India. India is much willing to provide that opportunity for Myanmar. India also needs Myanmar to fight insurgency in its eastern frontiers. India with the support from Myanmar has yielded results in subduing insurgency along the India-Myanmar border.

Since early 1990s, India has been expressing concern at China’s alleged ‘signal intelligence facility in Myanmar to monitor Indian missile launches into the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean’ and dubbed the Myanmar coast as China’s second coast. With the sales of submarine and the delivery of Sheyna torpedo in 2019, India can now hope to secure a share of the Myanmar coast. However, there remains a challenge for India. What happens if China seizes Myanmar’s submarine purchases in the future or Myanmar buys new submarines from Russia as there is less possibility for Myanmar to opt for old submarines.

Has Indo-China competition placed Myanmar into a strategic advantage or Myanmar’s strategic location has pulled India and China into competition? In fact, it is has worked both ways. Myanmar is important both to China and India and vice versa. For China, Myanmar provides the strategic corridor to access the Bay of Bengal and reduces dependence on the choke point, the Strait of Malacca. China has been the closest ally of Myanmar for decades, including the period of isolation between 1988 and 2010. While China has been the protector of military regimes and its atrocity crimes against civilian population, India has preferred not to embarrass Myanmar by criticising internationally or regionally.

Myanmar also depends on China for many reasons especially to survive international backlash and sanctions resulting from persistent right violations, genocidal crimes against the Rohingyas and so forth. India despite being the practitioner of democracy did not dare risking its relational progress buy taking a stand against Myanmar for its genocidal crimes. Both China and India will strive to seek leverage in economic and military capacity-building cooperation in Myanmar. Myanmar’s plan to build a fleet of three submarines by 2030 is likely to make the Myanmar coast more competitive for China and India with a spillover effect into the Bay of Bengal.

Commodore (retired) Mohammad Abdur Razzak is a retired officer of the Bangladesh navy.

 

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Bangladesh won’t fall into debt trap, says foreign minister
FE Online Report | Published: December 01, 2020 19:36:00 | Updated: December 02, 2020 10:05:28
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Bangladesh will not fall into the so-called debt trap due to its borrowing from China or India, Foreign Minister Dr AK Momen said on Tuesday.

Many critics argue that since Bangladesh has undertaken a large number of mega projects through borrowing from other countries, it may fall into debt trap but it is not true,” the minister said in his written speech in the Bangabandhu lecture series.
Bangladesh’s debt ratio is only 15 per cent, which much below the IMF threshold of debt-trap.

When debt ratio of a country reaches 40 per cent, that country debt trap as per IMF doctrine.

Taking loan from China and India will not lead Bangladesh to the debt trap or make the country dependent on them, he said.
“Our debt ratio with China is around 6.5 per cent of India is 1.3 per cent GDP. So, the apprehension of felling into the debt trap is not based on fact,” he explained.

And the argument that despite our thriving economy, the country‘s cost of borrowing is rising which is also not fact based, he added.

Now our cost of borrowing is around 1.3 per cent only, said the minister.

He informed that the ministry has established 58 Bangabandhu centres in Bangladesh missions abroad to mark the Mujib centenary.

He said Nobel Laureate Professor AK Sen is likely to the keynote speaker in the next Lecture Series on Bangabandhu next month.

Terming Bangabandhu, an institution, Dr Momen said he was a visionary leader who spent his entire life specially to establish the rights of people, and to end discrimination, disparity and deprivation.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs has recently established Bangabandhu Center for Diplomatic Strategy and Research at the Shugonda, the 1st office of Bangabandhu Sheikh Mujibur Rahman as the head of the government of independent and sovereign Bangladesh, he added.

“Bangladesh which was known as the bottomless basket is now a vibrant economy, a land of opportunity. Even post-Covid economy, its GDP growth rate is food 5.4 per cent, which is the highest in Asia”.

“Bangabandhu always said peace is essential for development. Therefore, we proposed to organise the ‘World Peace Conference’ in Bangladesh next year during the 50th year anniversary of independence of Bangladesh,” he said adding that it would be a gathering of peace lovers of all across the globe.
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Bangladesh has been accused of buying Israeli-made surveillance equipment to spy on hundreds of people's mobile phones despite banning all trade with Israel.

Documented obtained by Al Jazeera's Investigation Unit revealed that Bangladesh's army acquired the P6 Intercept via a Bangkok-based middleman in 2018.

The P6 Intercept is a so-called IMSI-catcher, a type of technology often used by authorities to track attendees during protests via their mobile phones.

James Moloney, an Irish national who is CEO for Sovereign Systems, a Singapore based company, was the main contact for the Bangladeshi officials.

Moloney told undercover journalists from Al Jazeera that Sovereign Systems was a front company for PicSix, an Israeli-based firm run by Israeli intelligence experts.

"[The technology] is from Israel, so we don't advertise that technology," Moloney told undercover journalists from Al Jazeera.

"We put the cellular or WiFi interception on the website...the technology is very aggressive and intrusive. You don't want the public to know that you're using the equipment."

After Dhaka acquired the P6 intercepts, Israeli intelligence experts then trained the military officers from Bangladesh's army in Hungary.

An agreement signed by the Directorate General of Defence Purchases, a Bangladeshi government body responsible for buying arms on behalf of the Bangladeshi army, showed that both parties had to sign a non-disclosure agreement as a condition for the sale.

The contract, obtained by Al Jazeera, also shows that the equipment originated from Hungary. But secret recordings showed Moloney telling the Bangladeshis that the equipment was from Israel.

Bangladesh has no diplomatic relations with Israel and has banned trade with the country. Dhaka said that it would not recognise Israel until there is a viable independent Palestinian state.

The South Asian country acquired the P6 Intercept a day after Aziz Ahmed, the head of Bangladesh's army, became chief of staff.

Al Jazeera revealed on Monday that Ahmed's brother, convicted criminal Haris Ahmed, played a central role in military procurement for Bangladesh.

Haris is one of five brothers accused of having ties to criminal activity, including murder.

The Bangladeshi government did not respond to Middle East Eye requests for comment by time of publication.

Bangladesh's Foreign Minister AK Abdul Momen, however, denied his government had obtained the equipment on Monday.

"We have not bought anything from Israel, and we have nothing to do with them," Momen told BBC Bangla.

 

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The regime in Bangladesh was "installed" by the USA-India axis.

I thought about telling you this in another post where you brought up similar topic. (That was MRCA related thread i think). I think there was an article/thread in another forum where it says Hasina didn't need India/RAW to win the last election. What BAL did in last election to win even blew RAW's mind. Visit BD during the general election you will be amused too.

I saw last two elections and had few experiences in 2018's election. So i can tell you confidently that no one needs to "install" Hasina anymore cause there's no one's left to challenge her.
 

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