Can US carriers survive an all-out attack from China?

xizhimen

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Just dropping some keywords for people who is interesting in reading further:

Satellite based air defence and early warning radars,
Satellite based network warfare, (Starlink)
Carrier strike groups, Theatrical air defence enabled ships,
Passive sensor networks,

US is far advanced in these, if China launches DF-21s on CVN, US won't be sitting there watch it happening but likely retailate.

Bonus: Zumwalts soon will receive VL Hypersonic missiles.
All these warning system didn't stop US submarine from hitting a mountain...

 

Anmdt

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All these warning system didn't stop US submarine to hit a mountain...
Totally unrelevant. Make some reasonable arguments please.

And ask google to see how often submarines collide with tankers, icebergs, barges even with each other.

If you are further interested visit quora to read some answers on how tedious it is for a submarine to navigate underwater(deep) and go back to surface.
 

xizhimen

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Its a difference case ofc. A floating fortress (surface) vs a silent hunter (underwater)
But I guess US subs are not designed to hit a mountain, but they did, they use similar technology. Air craft carriers are not designed to be sunk, but they always are.
 

Nilgiri

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yeah they did this back in 1986, imagine what they could do now ???

============================================================================================

To actually score a kill, those ASBM must first know what they are hitting at, its basically back to basic. There are hundreds if not thousands of ships actively sailing in those water. On radar there's no telling (due to size similarity ) if you're looking at a tanker or an aircraft carrier. in fact the USN could modify those carriers to emit EM signal imitating to that of an aircraft carrier deck.

The Indian navy uses this method way back in 1971 Indo-Pak war when the frigate INS Rajput sailed near Visakhapatnam and emit false radio signals of that of an aircraft carrier to fool the Pakistani into thinking that the INS Viraat is near.

The other method is the satellite surveillance and the USN had already defeated those back in 1986. Here's an excerpt of what actually happened.



So basically in 1986 a US CV bombarded Hawaii, sunk enemy ships and submarine all the while being invisible the whole time while being searched by satellites , the US tactics and operational procedures had greatly refined since then. imagine what they could do now near Taiwan ????

here's what an ASBM kill chain look like.
missile_trajectory.bmp


Now that radar had its limit and satellites based surveillance had already proven defeated, how are the Chinese going to guide those missile into a US CSG. Unlike a land based airbase an aircarft carrier are constantly on the move, a modern Nimitz or Ford class CVN could reportedly run at a speed of up to 32+ knots, not only that it could change course at will.

Now to make matters worse, the USN will employ all kinds of countermeasures to fool the incoming missile. Add that to the array of destroyers and cruiser escort armed with ABM capable system like the AEGIS combat system.



Now lets say the some of the missile did hit the ship. Is it somehow a proof that AC are vulnerable ??

See this:

on both occasions the ship continue to float and sail under its own power, and in combat would definitely launch its combat aircraft.

another case study is the USS America CV-66


In 2005, the USN uses the ship as a evaluation platform to improve US carrier survivability in combat by putting the ship under an intense 4 week bombardment.


one one occasion the US planted an underwater explosives in the hull an detonated it. To the surprise of many the ship did not sunk.


In the end the US navy decided to scuttle the ship on purpose, that means opening all watertight doors and purposefully detonate known weak points of the ship. It took hours to sink.

In real life combat not only a hit from ASBM will be random (means it would not precisely hit the weak point), there will be damage control party to make sure the ship doesn't sink.

If its this hard to sink USS America, one could only imagine the survivability of modern Nimitz and Ford class carrier.

@Nilgiri @Anmdt @Lordimperator @Manomed

As I have intimated many times....if carriers are so easily countered like this (by literal pennies on the dollar), why build them yourself?

If US bonds are crap (cuz USD and US economy are soon to be wastelands)... why buy them by the truck, train, plane and ship loads each day?...given by your own logic they will not be good for it?

If the US is such a doomed bad country facing the precipice....why immigrate there in record numbers?

I could go on at some length regarding these pretty brazen juxtapositions (between "powers that be" that "run" the system and those underling larpers well below within the system)....that create the silly walk mouthbreathing "little red book" quote response from the "red guard" dullard variant (of the latter) predictably.

Honestly I do feel for those intellectuals that had to face in real life.... their (earlier variant) "struggle sessions" face to face, spit and shine, kafka traps, stick to head and all the rest and even worse....past the repetitive attempted deafening and spam-vandalism/defacement like found in certain areas of the forum here (that can at least be in its case voluntarily ignored unlike the former).

The larger point is it needs a cpl basic elements of civility and integrity (a balanced upbringing often helps but is no full guarantee) to actually try cultivate some critical thinking with time (to answer these questions yourself quite easily without airing out .

Its only when you get past that first step, can you get to step 2 with some people.

Its only when you get to step 5 , critical knowledge and thinking of earlier steps illustrates to the elevated mind....such things as why the self-criticism and wide opinionated media articles arise from the US system (as it seeks to channel certain funding and attention into certain forces)...

Things we have seen time and time again if one know how to analyse an actual well-versed superpower (with the track record)....compared to unproven aspirers.

Steps 6 and beyond are worthy ones to get to discussion, but exceedingly rare and specific....needing excellent honing of knowledge and experienced application.

These people are quickly recognised by others of that realm....I'll leave it at that.

But some are lost causes, step 1 is simply impossible for them....they love the self generated body odour of step 0's constant circular mud crawl.

It is frog in well stuff I had a chat with my friend @UkroTurk 🚬 elsewhere earlier.

Lately, I simply let the rest of the people (in some place I choose to frequent for whatever reason) figure for themselves where automatons with megaphones (and boors in general) fit in this process.

It is simply best for people to learn things themselves sometimes....on their time and cognition.

Time is precious for me lately. The free dabble aspect of it must be spent on worthies as far as possible....for the interests of all involved (IMO).

Some people here have spent some vast amount of time and actually inversely taken down the impression of their country here with it by the excessive addiction to a whole new level of selective spam-cringe. Yet they remain oblivious to it, as their personal emotional need for it triumphs.

Frankly ridiculous.

=====================================

That giant old country I have so much (deeper) respect and knowledge of, takes this sad localised extra hammering here (by "own hand") past what its current "drop of time" totalitarian regime already did, does and will do....as every stereotype gets proven somewhat incredibly non-ironically.

My evenings of measured musing these days involve schubert, shakespeare and scotch....and variants thereof....shared with friends and worthies...along with the day to day things of some relevant note....or days gone by.

All things furthest from the clownish vapid walkers and stalkers here from some earlier circus graveyard I long left and recedes in memory....as I want it to.

I partook in the foolish spectacle there and made only a fool of myself in the end I think....I abhor that all now.

Let every man be master of his time.

@VCheng @Joe Shearer
 
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VCheng

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As I have intimated many times....if carriers are so easily countered like this (by literal pennies on the dollar), why build them yourself?

If US bonds are crap (cuz USD and US economy are soon to be wastelands)... why buy them by the truck, train, plane and ship loads each day?...given by your own logic they will not be good for it?

If the US is such a doomed bad country facing the precipice....why immigrate there in record numbers?

I could go on at some length regarding these pretty brazen juxtapositions (between "powers that be" that "run" the system and those underling larpers well below within the system)....that create the silly walk mouthbreathing "little red book" quote response from the "red guard" dullard variant (of the latter) predictably.

Honestly I do feel for those intellectuals that had to face in real life.... their (earlier variant) "struggle sessions" face to face, spit and shine, kafka traps, stick to head and all the rest and even worse....past the repetitive attempted deafening and spam-vandalism/defacement like found in certain areas of the forum here (that can at least be in its case voluntarily ignored unlike the former).

The larger point is it needs a cpl basic elements of civility and integrity (a balanced upbringing often helps but is no full guarantee) to actually try cultivate some critical thinking with time (to answer these questions yourself quite easily without airing out .

Its only when you get past that first step, can you get to step 2 with some people.

Its only when you get to step 5 , critical knowledge and thinking of earlier steps illustrates to the elevated mind....such things as why the self-criticism and wide opinionated media articles arise from the US system (as it seeks to channel certain funding and attention into certain forces)...

Things we have seen time and time again if one know how to analyse an actual well-versed superpower (with the track record)....compared to unproven aspirers.

Steps 6 and beyond are worthy ones to get to discussion, but exceedingly rare and specific....needing excellent honing of knowledge and experienced application.

These people are quickly recognised by others of that realm....I'll leave it at that.

But some are lost causes, step 1 is simply impossible for them....they love the self generated body odour of step 0's constant circular mud crawl.

It is frog in well stuff I had a chat with my friend @UkroTurk 🚬 elsewhere earlier.

Lately, I simply let the rest of the people (in some place I choose to frequent for whatever reason) figure for themselves where automatons with megaphones (and boors in general) fit in this process.

It is simply best for people to learn things themselves sometimes....on their time and cognition.

Time is precious for me lately. The free dabble aspect of it must be spent on worthies as far as possible....for the interests of all involved (IMO).

Some people here have spent some vast amount of time and actually inversely taken down the impression of their country here with it by the excessive addiction to a whole new level of selective spam-cringe. Yet they remain oblivious to it, as their personal emotional need for it triumphs.

Frankly ridiculous.

=====================================

That giant old country I have so much (deeper) respect and knowledge of, takes this sad localised extra hammering here (by "own hand") past what its current "drop of time" totalitarian regime already did, does and will do....as every stereotype gets proven somewhat incredibly non-ironically.

My evenings of measured musing these days involve schubert, shakespeare and scotch....and variants thereof....shared with friends and worthies...along with the day to day things of some relevant note....or days gone by.

All things furthest from the clownish vapid walkers and stalkers here from some earlier circus graveyard I long left and recedes in memory....as I want it to.

I partook in the foolish spectacle there and made only a fool of myself in the end I think....I abhor that all now.

Let every man be master of his time.

@VCheng @Joe Shearer

I have stopped participating in dick measuring contests a long time ago, and more so in hypothetical ones, just to immeasurably improve my own peace of mind. :D
 

Nilgiri

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Interesting headline back then, same vibe with today's supposed vulnerability of AC's.

@Anmdt @Nilgiri

FDok5puX0AQ0cAH

Yes in another place, I have documentation of long extended conversation between two-three Naval guys (now retired) about how Soviets explored and abandoned the idea (and why they did) regarding large production and deployment of "carrier killer" missiles.

I will try look for it later maybe and paste some salient parts of it.

For now the summary/conclusion....

It was seriously considered (strategically to orient from 70s onwards vis a vis US for the next 50 years or so) given Soviet missile ecosystem being far more immense than their capital ship navy one (i.e to try meet US navy size + power level that way).

The summary of it regarding its dooming/non-adoption was largely critical things w.r.t final phase to interdict a CBG from such distances....given CBG defences and western sensor capability.

That sensoring +networking (that during 80s US already brandished via "star wars" program to add pressure to theater MAD) was what Soviets decided to (try) catch up on first (at it would be base-input stuff much required to bring later potent "super" weapon systems), but they imploded in 1991 due to larger economic neglect....and that is too much to backwork into an alternate universe now.

Any case the same issues will plague new aspirers and existing powers....superweapon breakthrough (with no counters) at scale is very hard to achieve.

@VCheng @Paro
 

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