Canada Navy Canada Surface Combatant (CSC) Program

DAVEBLOGGINS

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Put "one over" right......where's your substantiation of that eh? The simple fact is that the prime contractor expected to build a substantially smaller vessel in tonnage when they signed the combat package contract and the government years later bloated so the prime contractor has gone back to the government for more funds. In project management if the client continues to make changes that violates the budget then you are certainly in your rights to ask for more funds. You don't have to agree with it because you have your mind made up. Why do you think they are in contract talks right now? You are right nothing has been signed except for years of effort to design the ship, and agreements in place with all the suppliers to supply the systems. Systems are getting built for these ships right now BTW. The government has gone all in on these ships and they are getting produced despite what Pugliese, Hansen and what you say.
Put "one over" right......where's your substantiation of that eh?
No substantiation required on any opinion expressed. IMO, Irving should never have agreed to this program if they weren't prepared to build these ships before the design phase was completed. They must have known well before that these "Frigates" would naturally grow in tonnage because of the design process and should have accounted for that in their figures before accepting the governments requirements when they were selected as the CSC ship builders. Irving is not stupid, and they have no one to blame but themselves. It is far too far down the road for the government to pull out now, however, IMO the government should cut their losses and pull out of Irving and given the project to "another" NSS yard ASAP! The Canadian government also has much to be ashamed of as well. They have been asleep at the helm for far too long when it comes to shipbuilding. The government just does not know how to build naval ships! A few programs have maintained such as the AOPS and some Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) programs that have kept marginal pace at best. But we lost sight of what lays over the horizon when it comes to the Halifax class replacement program and the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) Frigates, the new AORs (JSS Protecteur class) which all seem to be well over budget and far behind schedule or still in the design phase. Not to mention the Polar class icebreaker (Diefenbaker class) acquisition for the CCG and where does the Victoria class submarine replacement program stand? The National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS) seems to be just that. A "strategy" that does not seem to be “off-the-ground” as yet.👎
 
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DAVEBLOGGINS

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DAVEBLOGGINS

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do we have the final spec of this ships already??

I heard the baseline model will be a beast with
-AN/SPY-7
-CMS-330
-24xVLS for surface strike (900km LRASM or 1500km Tomahawk)
-48 cell for Sea Ceptor
-1x127mm
-2xPhalanx
-2x30mm autocannon
-3x324mm torpedo

very interesting, will be one of the most heavily armed surface combatant in the next 20 years, can't wait to see these fine boats in service on their respective navies.

Here are the latest updates as of 05 February 2024 for the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) Type 26 Frigate weapons & systems design as known thus far until the Preliminary Design Review (PDR) is released by the end of 2024. The number of MK 41 VLS Cells has been dropped to 24 Cells vice 32. The mast is also much taller. The crew size has increased as well from 204 to 210 personnel. The ship tonnage has increased to 8,080 tonnes although that will not be the full-load weight (possibly around 9,400 tonnes):

1. 1 x Lockheed Martin (LM) Solid State 3D Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) "S" Band Long Range Discrimination Radar (LRDR)-SPY 7 (V) 3 Phased Array Solid State Air Search Radar with Aegis integration into the CMS 330 Combat System-Confirmed by Lockheed Martin (LM).
2. 1 x Solid State AESA "X" Band Illumination Radar supported by MacDonald Dettwiler Associates (MDA) in Richmond British Columbia-below the SPY 7 (V) 3 radar mast, with integration into the CMS 330 Combat System. This will be a Fire Control/Surveillance radar for all Missiles & Guns as well as close-in surface search and surveillance. This may be an MDA built radar or it may be an existing radar from Thales (possibly a Canadianized version of the Sea Fire 500 AESA Phased Array Illumination Radar) however MDA is not talking. Any enlightenment on this radar from any forum members, would be much appreciated.
3. "X" & "S" Bands Navigation Radars.
4. MacDonald Dettwiler Associates (MDA)-Electronic Warfare Suite System & Chaff launchers.
5. MacDonald Dettwiler Associates (MDA)-Future High Energy Laser (HEL) Warfare Defence System (again MDA is not talking).
6. 24 x MK 41 strike length VLS-ESSM2, SM II/IIIC-SM3; SM6 & Hypersonic cruise missiles (fitted for, but not with).The MK 41 VLS System could be increased up to 64 ExLS cells midships for Batch II build as with the proposed BAE Hunter class Type 26 Frigates (The Multi-Mission Bay (MMB) along with a Mission Bay Handling System (MBHS) would be replaced by this increased missile load); Raytheon Tomahawk Land Attack Cruise Missiles (TLAM).
7. Combat Information Management Systems-Links 11/16/22/GCCS-M/ Mode 5S Identification Friend or Foe (IFF).
8. Light Weight (LW) MK 54 Torpedo system and magazine with twin launcher tubes (Port/Stb’d).
9. Sea Spider anti-torpedo system (Magellan/TKMS)
10. 6 x 4 ExLS VLS-Aft of the funnel (Sea Ceptor, quad-packed) for CIADS (could also be increased to 12 x 4 ExLS cells for the CSC Batch II build).
11. 2 x 4 Quad packs Kongsberg NSM Surface-To-Surface Missiles-Port/Stb’d above Multi-Mission Bay. These NSM missiles could be increased to 4 x 4 Quad packs during CSC Batch II build as with the Constellation class frigates.
12. Main Gun: 1 x 5-inch Leonardo Oto Melara 127mm Light Weight (LW) Land Attack and Anti-Air Vulcano gun. This gun will confer the CSC ships with the ability to fire extended-range, precision-guided Vulcano munitions – both in guided long-range and the ballistic extended-range versions – with conventional Anti-Air Warfare ammunition.
13. Secondary Guns: 2 x MARLIN 30 Stabilized Rapid Fire 30mm 174 ATK MK44 Naval Gun Systems (from Leonardo-Port/Stb’d of Flight Deck) with RC-Remotely Controlled; COAX-"Coaxial Electro-Optical Sensor Suite" and ILOS-Independent Line Of Site able to fire HE-High Explosive/AP-Armor-Piercing/TP-Target Practice/ABM-Air Burst Munitions. ROF-Rate Of Fire-SS-Single Shot/100-200 RPMs-Rounds Per Minute; Day & IR Camera. MER-Maximum Effective Range-3500 Meters. Effective against any surface threats/Helicopters and Drones. Outstanding accuracy and precision; automatic Duel-Feed system; Stealthy Design; Video Tracking Capability; High reliability and ease of maintenance with no deck penetration.
14. CEC-Cooperative Engagement Capability Sensor Netting-Integrated Cyber Defence System (future-proofing for possible Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) capabilities;
15. Integrated Bridge & Navigation System from OSI.
16. Internal/Secure External Communications Suite-HF/UHF/SHF/VHF/SATCOM from L3 Harris.
17. Electro Optical & Infrared Systems; Radio/Radar ESM-Electronic Support Measures to include: Frequency Identification; Laser Warning & Electric Countermeasures System (ECM-RAVEN); Radar/Radio Frequency Electronic Jammers; Electronic Decoy Systems.
18. CMS: Lockheed Martin Combat Management System 330/ACS-Aegis Combat System in support of CEC and future BMD-Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) Capabilities.
19. Ultra Electronics HMS-Hull Mounted Sonar-Ultra S2150.
20. Ultra Electronics Active/Passive Towed Array Sonar; Towed Torpedo Countermeasures-Sea Sentor S21700.
21. Ultra Electronics Variable Depth Sonar (VDS) known as TLFAS-Towed Low Frequency Active Sonar; (This system is designed to identify and track stealthy submarines in harsh sea environments); Future XLUUV Drone capability.
22. Sonobouy Processing System (SPS) from General Dynamics with expendable Acoustic Countermeasures.
23. Combined Diesel Electric Gas Turbine Propulsion System (CODLOG) to include 1 X Rolls Royce RR/MT 30 Gas Turbine; 2 X Electronic Motors from General Electric; 4 X RR MTU Diesel Generators; Integrated Platform Management System (IPMS) from L3 Harris.
24. CSC Reconfigurable Multi-Mission Bay (MMB) along with a Mission Bay Handling System (MBHS)-reconfigurable mission and boat bays including a 9m rescue boat, two 9-12m multi-role boats, Rolls Royce’ mission bay handling system (MBHS), and modular mission support (standard 20ft sea containers, other vehicles).
25. 1 x S-92 CH 148 Cyclone Sikorsky ASW Helicopter with the ability to carry 2 Cyclones if required in the hanger; Skeldar V200 UAV-Unmanned Aerial Vehicle helicopter drone systems (possibly x 2) from Saab-known as CU-176 "Gargoyle" helicopter drones either in the hanger or in 20 ft containers in the Multi-Mission Bay (MMB).
26. Speed-approximately 27-30 kts. Statement Of Requirement (SOR); required capability for US Carrier Battle Group (CBG) Ops.
27. Crew Compliment-210 max (with separate female officer/sailor quarters).
 

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Ted Barnes

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"The Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) project recently achieved another major design milestone. In April, 16 sailors from coast to coast arrived at the Human Performance Lab in Dahlgren, Virginia where they participated in the validation of a full-scale mock up of a selected Operations Room Layout. This exercise was the culmination of a detailed design process, and the CSC Project is happy to report it resulted in a “locked in” Command Information Centre (CIC). The Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) is adopting the United States Navy’s CIC to replace the more commonly used Operations Room, to be more inclusive to all the activities and personnel who will operate in CSC’s CIC.



The design process was conducted over 19 months, predicated on the decision to join the Aegis enterprise. Representatives from PMO CSC, joined by partners from the RCN, Canadian Industry and Aegis design specialists from the Naval Surface Warfare Centre Dahlgren Division (NSWCDD) followed a five-phase approach to optimize the console layout of the CIC Complex. This approach included over 175 interviews with sailors from S3 to Capt(N). The intent of these interviews were to align existing RCN trades and skills with those within the Aegis enterprise, creating a “USN to RCN” dictionary.



Once this data was collected and analyzed, a tabletop exercise was conducted in Halifax in October 2022. This exercise was a collaborative approach between the operational community and warship designers where a 1:12 scale model with 3D printed consoles were used to brainstorm layout options for the three spaces that make up the CIC, Sonar Display Room and the Operational Planning/Command Planning Room. Over 75 designs were created from this event with 18 being deemed viable for further evaluation. These 18 designs were studied by NSWCDD human factor engineers and scored against a complex scorecard focussing on communication flow, personnel adjacencies and many others.



A cadre of RCN personnel then selected a final design to be stress tested at a Cognitive Walkthrough validation exercise in April 2023. To stress test the model, selected operators were provided with a week of instruction describing the new aspects of the CSC Combat System suite of weapons, sensors, and new positions. After this orientation training, the validation exercise was a three-day event where various warfare scenarios were exercised with the CIC watch, who sat their positions within the CIC mock-up. Each sailor was shadowed by a human factors engineer who gathered detailed feedback as scenarios from reading warnings to conducting engagements were executed.



While CSC belongs to the future fleet, crucial design work is happening now with sailor input being critical to get it right. CSC will be the backbone of the combatant fleet, and will be a warship designed by sailors, for sailors."

By Royal Canadian Navy
CduBD2q.jpg
 

DAVEBLOGGINS

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"The Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) project recently achieved another major design milestone. In April, 16 sailors from coast to coast arrived at the Human Performance Lab in Dahlgren, Virginia where they participated in the validation of a full-scale mock up of a selected Operations Room Layout. This exercise was the culmination of a detailed design process, and the CSC Project is happy to report it resulted in a “locked in” Command Information Centre (CIC). The Royal Canadian Navy (RCN) is adopting the United States Navy’s CIC to replace the more commonly used Operations Room, to be more inclusive to all the activities and personnel who will operate in CSC’s CIC.



The design process was conducted over 19 months, predicated on the decision to join the Aegis enterprise. Representatives from PMO CSC, joined by partners from the RCN, Canadian Industry and Aegis design specialists from the Naval Surface Warfare Centre Dahlgren Division (NSWCDD) followed a five-phase approach to optimize the console layout of the CIC Complex. This approach included over 175 interviews with sailors from S3 to Capt(N). The intent of these interviews were to align existing RCN trades and skills with those within the Aegis enterprise, creating a “USN to RCN” dictionary.



Once this data was collected and analyzed, a tabletop exercise was conducted in Halifax in October 2022. This exercise was a collaborative approach between the operational community and warship designers where a 1:12 scale model with 3D printed consoles were used to brainstorm layout options for the three spaces that make up the CIC, Sonar Display Room and the Operational Planning/Command Planning Room. Over 75 designs were created from this event with 18 being deemed viable for further evaluation. These 18 designs were studied by NSWCDD human factor engineers and scored against a complex scorecard focussing on communication flow, personnel adjacencies and many others.



A cadre of RCN personnel then selected a final design to be stress tested at a Cognitive Walkthrough validation exercise in April 2023. To stress test the model, selected operators were provided with a week of instruction describing the new aspects of the CSC Combat System suite of weapons, sensors, and new positions. After this orientation training, the validation exercise was a three-day event where various warfare scenarios were exercised with the CIC watch, who sat their positions within the CIC mock-up. Each sailor was shadowed by a human factors engineer who gathered detailed feedback as scenarios from reading warnings to conducting engagements were executed.



While CSC belongs to the future fleet, crucial design work is happening now with sailor input being critical to get it right. CSC will be the backbone of the combatant fleet, and will be a warship designed by sailors, for sailors."

By Royal Canadian Navy View attachment 57937
Hello Ted. This "CIC" design process was conceptualized as well when the then , not built , Halifax class was on the design phase. I was part of that process as well. It will be very interesting to see how the Navy fares out this time around. An excellent process then and I believe now as well. By the way, we didn't get everything quite right the first time and I'm sure there will be some bugs to work out here as well.
 
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DAVEBLOGGINS

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The Canadian government will be giving an update before the end of 2023 on more detailed projected costs on the CSC Type 26 Frigate Program. Interesting articles to read for forum members. These can be seen below:


 

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Put "one over" right......where's your substantiation of that eh? The simple fact is that the prime contractor expected to build a substantially smaller vessel in tonnage when they signed the combat package contract and the government years later bloated so the prime contractor has gone back to the government for more funds. In project management if the client continues to make changes that violates the budget then you are certainly in your rights to ask for more funds. You don't have to agree with it because you have your mind made up. Why do you think they are in contract talks right now? You are right nothing has been signed except for years of effort to design the ship, and agreements in place with all the suppliers to supply the systems. Systems are getting built for these ships right now BTW. The government has gone all in on these ships and they are getting produced despite what Pugliese, Hansen and what you say.
Hello Ted. As a so called "military expert and Ottawa Citizen reporter, Pugliese's reputation as a "qualified and unbiased reporter" has always been suspect to most informed personnel and his objectiveness is just as bad. I would not put my faith in almost anything that comes out of his mouth or his biased articles and woah-be-tide if you disagree with his "babble", he will go after you with all his "mighty pen" can say! He is NOT an objective "so called" reporter and most informed Naval experts do not put any faith in what he says!. "He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is an idiot, ignore him!" My only question still is, will MDA reveal during the PDR update this year what X Band Illumination Radar they are "developing" for the CSC Frigate by the end of 2024. The best one on the world market today, is the French Naval Sea Fire 500 X band Illumination radar. An excellent option for the CSC Frigate and CMS 330 system. "My rant for the day!" Cheers!
 

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Hello Ted. As a so called "military expert and Ottawa Citizen reporter, Pugliese's reputation as a "qualified and unbiased reporter" has always been suspect to most informed personnel and his objectiveness is just as bad. I would not put my faith in almost anything that comes out of his mouth or his biased articles and woah-be-tide if you disagree with his "babble", he will go after you with all his "mighty pen" can say! He is NOT an objective "so called" reporter and most informed Naval experts do not put any faith in what he says!. "He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is an idiot, ignore him!" My only question still is, will MDA reveal during the PDR update this year what X Band Illumination Radar they are "developing" for the CSC Frigate by the end of 2024. The best one on the world market today, is the French Naval Sea Fire 500 X band Illumination radar. An excellent option for the CSC Frigate and CMS 330 system. "My rant for the day!" Cheers!

Good to see you Dave. Hope you are doing well!
 

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Good to see you Dave. Hope you are doing well!
Hi Nilgiri!! Yes doing well. Just haven't had much to say lately on the CSC Frigate "on-going" saga of government silence with the program. Hopefully the up-dated SSE and PDR will be released sometime this Decade!! Cheers!;)
 

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Canada continues funding for US defense contractor​


Canada will continue to finance CACI International, a US-based security systems supplier, for an additional year of technical engineering services and support for the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) programme.

Under this modification, authorised by the US Department of Defense (DoD) on 7 February 2024, the contractor will receive $11.3m, $10m (C$13.4m) of which will come from Canadian foreign military sales funds.


Work will be performed in Washington, D.C. and is expected to be completed by February 2025.

This modification builds on a pre-existing contract awarded to the company in February 2023, when it was awarded $11m, with a cumulative value of $92.5m, for the same work on the CSC programme. At the time, the DoD stated that if all options are exercised then work will continue through to February 2028.

Currently, the programme has reached its third ‘definition’ phase where the Canadian Government selects a team and their warship design proposal as well as production engineering suppliers for contract awards – one among them being CACI for technical engineering support services.

This stage precedes phase four, implementation (i.e construction of the vessels) and early delivery expected in the 2030s.
 

DAVEBLOGGINS

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Canada continues funding for US defense contractor​


Canada will continue to finance CACI International, a US-based security systems supplier, for an additional year of technical engineering services and support for the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) programme.

Under this modification, authorised by the US Department of Defense (DoD) on 7 February 2024, the contractor will receive $11.3m, $10m (C$13.4m) of which will come from Canadian foreign military sales funds.


Work will be performed in Washington, D.C. and is expected to be completed by February 2025.

This modification builds on a pre-existing contract awarded to the company in February 2023, when it was awarded $11m, with a cumulative value of $92.5m, for the same work on the CSC programme. At the time, the DoD stated that if all options are exercised then work will continue through to February 2028.

Currently, the programme has reached its third ‘definition’ phase where the Canadian Government selects a team and their warship design proposal as well as production engineering suppliers for contract awards – one among them being CACI for technical engineering support services.

This stage precedes phase four, implementation (i.e construction of the vessels) and early delivery expected in the 2030s.
So, if I read you correctly Ted, Phase 3 of the Lockheed Martin PDR has essentially been completed with CACI and the CSC Frigate program for Technical Engineering Support? The only things left to do for Phase 4 Implementation to begin is for the Canadian Government to 1. Select Teams; 2. Select the Final Design; 3. Select Production Engineering Suppliers & most importantly, sign the Batch 1 contract with ISL? Most, if not all of these requirements should have already been accomplished by now. Teams should have already been in place; Final Design would most likely have been decided upon by now or within the next few months; Suppliers should have already been selected by now; so, what are we waiting for? Let's sign with ISL by Summer 2024 and get on with it! The Canadian public have waited far, far too long! It's time to get on with this program now!!!
 

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Is there anyone out there that has any new information on the MDA Illumination AESA Radar to be fitted on the CSC Type 26 Frigate as of the 13 February? I am only speculating of course but here is what I have. If any forum members can help me out here, that would be great!:

"1 x Solid State AESA "X" Band Illumination Radar supported by MacDonald Dettwiler Associates (MDA) in Richmond British Columbia-below the SPY 7 (V) 3 radar mast, with integration into the CMS 330 Combat System. This will be a Fire Control/Surveillance radar for all Missiles & Guns as well as close-in surface search and surveillance. This may be an MDA built radar or it may be an existing radar from Thales France (possibly a Canadianized version of the Sea Fire 500 AESA Phased Array Illumination Radar) however MDA is not talking. Any enlightenment on this radar from any forum members, would be much appreciated."
 

DAVEBLOGGINS

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Naval Specialist Ted Barnes seems to feel that there is something "funny" about Canada's CSC Type 26 Frigates abilities to defend itself with a civilian Canadian company's (MDA) requirement to produce a critical Illumination Radar for the CSC as they were contracted to do. If you have something constructive to add Ted, or any information (if you can), I'm sure all forum members would like you to share. Cheers!;)
 

DAVEBLOGGINS

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Naval Specialist Ted Barnes seems to feel that there is something "funny" about Canada's CSC Type 26 Frigates abilities to defend itself with a civilian Canadian company's (MDA) requirement to produce a critical Illumination Radar for the CSC as they were contracted to do. If you have something constructive to add Ted, or any information (if you can), I'm sure all forum members would like you to share. Cheers!;)
I take it from your "Humm" emoji reply Ted that you do not want to to discuss anything WRT the CSC design as related to the MDA Illumination radar and the critical radar it must use to keep our sailors safe from harm? 🐎 :poop:
 

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I take it from your "Humm" emoji reply Ted that you do not want to to discuss anything WRT the CSC design as related to the MDA Illumination radar and the critical radar it must use to keep our sailors safe from harm? 🐎 :poop:
Is a civilian company with no experience of building military radars building the radar for a destroyer? You guys should hope they get consultancy or partnership from some other
 

DAVEBLOGGINS

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Is a civilian company with no experience of building military radars building the radar for a destroyer? You guys should hope they get consultancy or partnership from some other
Hello, ucuyorum. MDA has been in the Space business for many years now including building satellites and the CANADARM used on most of the Apollo systems and the ISS, RADARSAT programs and satellites. No, they have not built Naval Radars yet but with their expertise, they should be able to produce that as well. So to say that they have no expertise to be able to build radars for the CSC Frigates is suspect. I suggest you visit their websites to see what they have to offer at:

 

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